21st? Yikes. Most lists acknowledge their show as top 5, and many top 2.
I have no debate against Prince being #1. His show was amazing.
New Album Discussion 1 - Songs of..... - Unreasonable guitar album
- Thread starter dan_smee
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I have no debate against Prince being #1. His show was amazing.
OP
OP
dan_smee
ONE love, blood, life
Kendrick’s show was masterful in so many ways. Music has always played an important role in elevating and resisting and I suppose where you rate things might have a lot to do with your own preferences for positivity or rallying against oppression as your starting point. U2’s show was one framed in community and positivity. Kendrick’s was about highlighting both how far we’ve fallen and how much we’ve never done. I think they were equally important statements reacting to wildly different times.
cseggleton
War Child
Might be giving Rick a little too much credit regarding his influence on U2.
That’s not credit, it’s blame.
PookaMacP
War Child
I agree. It's just that some people lean into one side or the other more, depending on their individual preferences.
Meaning that I love Vertigo *and* One Minute Warning, but I could never listen to Atomic Bomb all the way through, whereas I would with OST1.
namkcuR
ONE love, blood, life
Honestly, I've never understood the insistence on attributing U2's decision to focus on "songwriting" to Rick Rubin. Those Rubin sessions happened in, what, 2006, right? The band had already re-focused on songwriting with ATYCLB and HTDAAB, well before meeting Rubin. That was the whole point - back to basics, less heavy production like in the 90s, four guys in a room. They were already doing it.
There was an acoustic version Of Stuck. In A Little While was played during the acoustic set during the Elevation tour. Wild Honey was an acoustic song. The Ground Beneath Her Feet was played acoustically during the Elevation tour. A Man And A Woman was basically acoustic. Yahweh was performed acoustically on the Vertigo Tour. Original Of The Species - Bono's admitted attempt at writing a Beatles song - was played keyboard-only on the first leg of the Vertigo Tour. Fast Cars was in large part a stripped down version of Xanax And Wine.
As far SOI and SOE, they were born out of a lack of lyrical focus on NLOTH. Bono has said that he had some kind of block while writing NLOTH, in terms of writing from his own POV, so he relied on POVs from fictional characters in a number of those songs; and after that, with SOI and SOE, he tried to dig deeper into his own history and life to find something to say. And that probably led to his autobiography, too. I honestly don't think it had a single thing to do with Rick Rubin.
I don't doubt that Rubin said the things he's been quoted with, I just doubt that they had the kind of impact on the band that some you think they had.
And not for nothing, but Rubin isn't some hack, he's a living legend in his own right, having founded Def Jam and produced for the Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, a host of other early hip-hop artists, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rage Against The Machine, Audioslave, Tom Petty, Sheryl Crow, Johnny Cash's "American" series, System Of Down, Metallica, Adele, Lana Del Rey, Lady Gaga, to name a few. And, I mean, I know RHCP isn't popular around here, but he is essentially their Eno/Lanois; he's their guy.
There was an acoustic version Of Stuck. In A Little While was played during the acoustic set during the Elevation tour. Wild Honey was an acoustic song. The Ground Beneath Her Feet was played acoustically during the Elevation tour. A Man And A Woman was basically acoustic. Yahweh was performed acoustically on the Vertigo Tour. Original Of The Species - Bono's admitted attempt at writing a Beatles song - was played keyboard-only on the first leg of the Vertigo Tour. Fast Cars was in large part a stripped down version of Xanax And Wine.
As far SOI and SOE, they were born out of a lack of lyrical focus on NLOTH. Bono has said that he had some kind of block while writing NLOTH, in terms of writing from his own POV, so he relied on POVs from fictional characters in a number of those songs; and after that, with SOI and SOE, he tried to dig deeper into his own history and life to find something to say. And that probably led to his autobiography, too. I honestly don't think it had a single thing to do with Rick Rubin.
I don't doubt that Rubin said the things he's been quoted with, I just doubt that they had the kind of impact on the band that some you think they had.
And not for nothing, but Rubin isn't some hack, he's a living legend in his own right, having founded Def Jam and produced for the Beastie Boys, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, a host of other early hip-hop artists, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rage Against The Machine, Audioslave, Tom Petty, Sheryl Crow, Johnny Cash's "American" series, System Of Down, Metallica, Adele, Lana Del Rey, Lady Gaga, to name a few. And, I mean, I know RHCP isn't popular around here, but he is essentially their Eno/Lanois; he's their guy.
OP
OP
dan_smee
ONE love, blood, life
I think the Rubin thing is seen that way because ATYCLB still had a cohesive theme and Bomb was arguably better for the tinkering. Rubin criticised them for their studio methods and wanted to watch them record completed songs. When it started to affect them was in 2008 when they scrapped the Eno/Lanois led NLOTH concept in search of “songs”. The thing they felt it was missing was the thing Rubin pushed them for. And it was wrong in 2008, and it was wrong in 2013 and it was wrong in 2016. Every album since Rubin can be characterised by a wig out over the craft of the songs and a complete back trace on the idea.
namkcuR
ONE love, blood, life
But, again, that tendency to overthink didn't start with Rubin. There was a version of HTDAAB that Bono and Edge wanted to put out in 2003, but they opened it back up and worked on it for another year(bringing Lillywhite in) before releasing it. And they obsessed over Pop to the point they ate into tour rehearsal time to finish it.
And I'd argue SOI and (to a lesser extent) SOE did have a (somewhat) cohesive theme of exploring mortality and also looking back at their youth through that lens.
There were certainly some frustrating mistakes made with NLOTH, SOI, and SOE, but I just think Rubin is being given way too much blame/credit/whatever you want to call it for those mistakes.
Just caught up on the last ~ page and a half and I have thoughts:
Beach Sequence is so good as a lead-in to Miss Sarajevo that I feel like I'm missing out if I listen to one without the other. Side note: I coincidentally got Eno's diary book from 95 for Christmas and just started it a couple weeks ago; hoping for some fun nuggets about the making of OST1
Rick Rubin - I never got the impression he kicked off the great songwriting chase. Yes, he does seem to favor stripping things back to their essentials, but because the band didn't gel with him very well, I can't really see them saying "Yeah, let's not work with him again, but how about we adopt his ideas anyway".
I also think the second-guessing and overcooking really took off after they perceived POP as an "undercook". So, now it's deadlines be damned until we've sufficiently squeezed the life out of every idea we put to paper.
Lastly, Unknown Caller...are we calling that experimental? I guess it has some elements, but I think it just dips a toe; much like the whole of that album. It's top 3 material on No Line and I absolutely would say it's better than a lot that came after. Again, subjectivity, but I can't chalk that song up to "at least they tried" because to me they succeeded; experimental or otherwise. Yes, it's a bit lifeless in a live setting, but that's another area that I wish they'd stop focusing on. "We're primarily a live band and we want to make sure these songs work well in that environment.". Make good art first. If it doesn't play well live, then change the setlist and let us enjoy the rest of the potentially great art on our stereos at home; doesn't mean it's not worth making.
Beach Sequence is so good as a lead-in to Miss Sarajevo that I feel like I'm missing out if I listen to one without the other. Side note: I coincidentally got Eno's diary book from 95 for Christmas and just started it a couple weeks ago; hoping for some fun nuggets about the making of OST1
Rick Rubin - I never got the impression he kicked off the great songwriting chase. Yes, he does seem to favor stripping things back to their essentials, but because the band didn't gel with him very well, I can't really see them saying "Yeah, let's not work with him again, but how about we adopt his ideas anyway".
I also think the second-guessing and overcooking really took off after they perceived POP as an "undercook". So, now it's deadlines be damned until we've sufficiently squeezed the life out of every idea we put to paper.
Lastly, Unknown Caller...are we calling that experimental? I guess it has some elements, but I think it just dips a toe; much like the whole of that album. It's top 3 material on No Line and I absolutely would say it's better than a lot that came after. Again, subjectivity, but I can't chalk that song up to "at least they tried" because to me they succeeded; experimental or otherwise. Yes, it's a bit lifeless in a live setting, but that's another area that I wish they'd stop focusing on. "We're primarily a live band and we want to make sure these songs work well in that environment.". Make good art first. If it doesn't play well live, then change the setlist and let us enjoy the rest of the potentially great art on our stereos at home; doesn't mean it's not worth making.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
this is accurate. the empty stadiums of Fall 1997 in North America has resulted in 21st century U2 being PTSD U2.
and i like a lot of 21st century U2.
and there's also the fact that Pop is a step down in quality from AB and JT. what those two albums had were significant singles. AB likely wouldn't have worked without the remarkable 1-2 punch of Mysterious Ways (a likely consensus top 10 all time U2 song) and One (a consensus Top 3 all time U2 song). they are an album band, not a singles band; but if they don't have a single, then no one cares about the album.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Supplier
U2's halftime show being ranked 21st in that article is a complete joke. And the person who wrote the blurb obviously didn't get it
My top five are
1. Prince
2. U2 (edging out Springsteen for 2 because of the emotional 9/11 timing and connection)
3. Springsteen
4. Lady Gaga (honorable mention for her Hold My Hand on the pregame show this year)
5. Dr Dre and Eminem and Mary J Blige etc
My top five are
1. Prince
2. U2 (edging out Springsteen for 2 because of the emotional 9/11 timing and connection)
3. Springsteen
4. Lady Gaga (honorable mention for her Hold My Hand on the pregame show this year)
5. Dr Dre and Eminem and Mary J Blige etc
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Supplier
And best National Anthem at the Super Bowl was Whitney Houston. No competition for number one in that category imo.
i don't think Unknown Caller is dreck because it was listless live.
i think it's one of their biggest blown opportunities - as the music, verse and outro is gorgeous, while the chorus is some of the biggest horse shit i've ever heard in my life.
i think it's one of their biggest blown opportunities - as the music, verse and outro is gorgeous, while the chorus is some of the biggest horse shit i've ever heard in my life.
I can sit here and defend UC to death, but it all comes down to taste. I think it's a highlight, including the chorus; which I feel is the part that dips the toe into experimentation and is better for it than resorting to another formulaic anthemic sing-song "It's not a hiiiiiiillllllll..." style chorus that they'd typically lean on. It's what makes the song memorable I'd say. Of course we don't know what could have been as an alternative. So, maybe I'm just blowing hot air. My only criticism of it is it always sounds like it's charging up to something, making it a better choice for first track as it was used in Linear. Well, that and I think the "sunshine" vocal doesn't do it any favors.
My biggest No Line missed opportunity would be Moment of Surrender. Such a cool rhythm and groove, ruined by the vocal performance.
My biggest No Line missed opportunity would be Moment of Surrender. Such a cool rhythm and groove, ruined by the vocal performance.
and this is why U2 can't win - because i have the exact opposite opinion on Moment of Surrender lol
generally speaking No Line is U2's most frustrating album - for me - because it's filled with missed opportunity, both creatively and commercially.
not releasing Moment of Surrender was a miss.
Boots is a sewn together mess with a throw away chorus. it's individual parts all could have been parts of good songs, but they just threw it together into a mishmosh of crap.
i already stated my opinion on Unknown Caller and how it's a giant blown opportunity.
Crazy Tonight and Stand Up Comedy stick out like sore thumbs - your opinion of their quality aside. i don't mind either as much as most here do - but both suffer from poor lyrics.
I never thought Magnificent would be a hit. It's an awkward title - with lyrics where bono, who people already think is an egomaniac, says he was born to sing for them, he didn't have a choice, and his first cry was a joyful noise.
Breathe has that awkward moment where Bono's actually out of tune that they left in... these daayauauauahsss... like... why?
but on the flip side.... I think No Line (the song) is terrific. Moment of Surrender - Fez / Being Born - White As Snow - Cedars of Lebanon. LOVE all of them. there WAS a great album here, but they butchered it by not going all in with their original plan out of fear that the album wouldn't have a hit. i'm sure they had fears of a PopMart repeat with 360 - not realizing that they had passed by the moment where they needed a hit album to fill stadiums because of the overwhelming demand still flowing over from the two early 2000s albums.
their inability to stick to the plan and follow through with the was then repeated on Songs of Innocence - when they abandoned Danger Mouse at the goal line.
generally speaking No Line is U2's most frustrating album - for me - because it's filled with missed opportunity, both creatively and commercially.
not releasing Moment of Surrender was a miss.
Boots is a sewn together mess with a throw away chorus. it's individual parts all could have been parts of good songs, but they just threw it together into a mishmosh of crap.
i already stated my opinion on Unknown Caller and how it's a giant blown opportunity.
Crazy Tonight and Stand Up Comedy stick out like sore thumbs - your opinion of their quality aside. i don't mind either as much as most here do - but both suffer from poor lyrics.
I never thought Magnificent would be a hit. It's an awkward title - with lyrics where bono, who people already think is an egomaniac, says he was born to sing for them, he didn't have a choice, and his first cry was a joyful noise.
Breathe has that awkward moment where Bono's actually out of tune that they left in... these daayauauauahsss... like... why?
but on the flip side.... I think No Line (the song) is terrific. Moment of Surrender - Fez / Being Born - White As Snow - Cedars of Lebanon. LOVE all of them. there WAS a great album here, but they butchered it by not going all in with their original plan out of fear that the album wouldn't have a hit. i'm sure they had fears of a PopMart repeat with 360 - not realizing that they had passed by the moment where they needed a hit album to fill stadiums because of the overwhelming demand still flowing over from the two early 2000s albums.
their inability to stick to the plan and follow through with the was then repeated on Songs of Innocence - when they abandoned Danger Mouse at the goal line.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Supplier
I love Magnificent
I laughed reading all of this because we are polar opposites on that album and it's a testament to your point of they can't win. The laughing is in good spirit though. I'm hoping I never actually come off as adversarial when so much subjectivity is involved.
Magnificent, Breathe, and Unknown Caller are my 3 10 out of 10s on the album. No Line (title track) is better in it's alternative version, but still not very good at all. Again, the shouting to the point of straining vocals (like in MOS) just doesn't sit well with me. I will meet you in the middle (not of the album, oof!) with Fez, White as Snow, and Cedars. Those are decent, bordering on great. I'm a bit of a Boots defender, though time has not been kind to it for me. SUC I even thought was fine enough at the time because it kind of rocks but with mediocre lyrics at best. Crazy Tonight is the only true throwaway from the hotly contested middle-three for me. Lastly, Winter should really be on the album, but I'd have tweaked it to not sound so Coldplay-adjacent out of the gate.
Then you mention SOI; which I feel is the most cohesive sounding work they've released since ATYCLB. Yeah, there are some lyrically thematic deviations, but I feel like sonically it flows quite well overall. However, I am super curious what a full Danger Mouse version could/would/should have been.
Magnificent, Breathe, and Unknown Caller are my 3 10 out of 10s on the album. No Line (title track) is better in it's alternative version, but still not very good at all. Again, the shouting to the point of straining vocals (like in MOS) just doesn't sit well with me. I will meet you in the middle (not of the album, oof!) with Fez, White as Snow, and Cedars. Those are decent, bordering on great. I'm a bit of a Boots defender, though time has not been kind to it for me. SUC I even thought was fine enough at the time because it kind of rocks but with mediocre lyrics at best. Crazy Tonight is the only true throwaway from the hotly contested middle-three for me. Lastly, Winter should really be on the album, but I'd have tweaked it to not sound so Coldplay-adjacent out of the gate.
Then you mention SOI; which I feel is the most cohesive sounding work they've released since ATYCLB. Yeah, there are some lyrically thematic deviations, but I feel like sonically it flows quite well overall. However, I am super curious what a full Danger Mouse version could/would/should have been.
nothing adversarial here at all... it just goes to prove how hard of a spot they are in when it comes to pleasing their fans.
they've had so many different styles - changed things up so many times - pulled in fans across different generations, genres and taste that there's next to nothing they can do that will please everyone.
The Super Bowl and it's half time shows have always been an embarrassing load of corporate muck masquerading as 'sport' thrust upon the world in typical US cultural imperialist fashion. That a sport needs a pop star / rock band to fill the half time space only speaks to how shockingly dull a sport it is too. A non-event.
super fly guy
New Yorker
Yeah,that part always grates. Fix that and its a solid 7 or 8 out of 10 for me.
I mean - I understand that the NFL isn't exactly popular across the pond there.
But 127.7 million people tuned in this year in the US. Sooooo it's kind of more than a non-event here. Champions League finals big globally? Nope. About half as big - an additional 70 to 90 million watch outside of the US. Think Champions League draws 350 to 400 million globally.
Regarding the need for a pop or rock act to draw additional attention? I'm just leave this right here
The Disciple
New Yorker
I really hope they release the Fez demos with a reissue down the road. The chorus that they had at that stage was much more impactful, in my less than humble opinion.
OP
OP
dan_smee
ONE love, blood, life
I don’t buy into the whole NFL thing either, but I never understand this logic. “Thrust upon the world”? If people don’t like it then they don’t watch it. Don’t yuck someone’s (or 130 million someones’) yum. As members of a U2 forum we should all know this lesson quite well.
david
ONE love, blood, life
I mean - I understand that the NFL isn't exactly popular across the pond there.
But 127.7 million people tuned in this year in the US. Sooooo it's kind of more than a non-event here. Champions League finals big globally? Nope. About half as big - an additional 70 to 90 million watch outside of the US. Think Champions League draws 350 to 400 million globally.
Regarding the need for a pop or rock act to draw additional attention? I'm just leave this right here
Haha. Bono’s force ghost.
It's not just about not yucking someone's yum, it's also just silly and inaccurate.
For the non Americans...
The major European sporting events also use major pop acts to help draw people who may not be interested in the sport. There's literally no difference other than the timing - Euro Finals, Champions League... they do it pregame.
The Super Bowl doesn't at halftime. But there's a reason for that. There's a tradition in American college sports of marching bands performing at halftime of football games. The Super Bowl halftime show grew out of that tradition. That is why it's at halftime and not before the game.
::crawls back to put em under pressure::
For the non Americans...
The major European sporting events also use major pop acts to help draw people who may not be interested in the sport. There's literally no difference other than the timing - Euro Finals, Champions League... they do it pregame.
The Super Bowl doesn't at halftime. But there's a reason for that. There's a tradition in American college sports of marching bands performing at halftime of football games. The Super Bowl halftime show grew out of that tradition. That is why it's at halftime and not before the game.
::crawls back to put em under pressure::
I mean - I understand that the NFL isn't exactly popular across the pond there.
But 127.7 million people tuned in this year in the US. Sooooo it's kind of more than a non-event here. Champions League finals big globally? Nope. About half as big - an additional 70 to 90 million watch outside of the US. Think Champions League draws 350 to 400 million globally.
Regarding the need for a pop or rock act to draw additional attention? I'm just leave this right here
Alright Uncle Sam, I didn't exactly say non-events had no one attending or observing it did I? Just calling it out for the putrefying smelling shite that it is. Get it tae fuck!
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Literally none of these shows are screened on the broadcaster's coverage or made a big deal of. The We Are The People didn't even make it onto the BBC coverage of Euro 2021.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I only watch the Superb Owl for the halftime show.
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DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
every single time football gets mentioned on any international comment forum there's always some up-his-own-arse brit chiming in about how terrible and stupid it is and how they're so superior to the americans that watch it, then they go right back to watching darts or cheese-rolling or sheep-fucking or whatever it is they think is the true pinnacle of athletics.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Supplier
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