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MadelynIris 09-23-2002 08:01 PM

Bono a pacifist?
 
We all think we know the man better than we really do....

Is Bono a pacifist? Was he ever?

Are you a pacifist? Some degree of a pacifist?

Would you defend yourself? If so under what circumstances?

Or would you turn the other cheek? If so, why?

Thanks,
Mark

STING2 09-23-2002 08:20 PM

BONO already stated in the Irish magazine HOT PRESS, 9 months ago, that he is not a pacifist.

anitram 09-23-2002 08:44 PM

I don't believe Bono is one any longer.

I am, though not an absolute pacifist. I lived through a war once, I sat in dark cellars and basements while bombs shattered overhead, while my friend's mother got blown up in the bread line, and it's not something I'm itching to repeat. Nobody wins in a war - it's a cliche we all repeat yet hardly anybody has any solid idea as to what it really means. When you live through something like that you lose a very important part of yourself; some bit of you dies inside and you can never get it back. The rest of your life is an inner struggle to regain your own humanity, to rise above the beasts who sought to kill you and to get up every morning and be able to see that it still might be a beautiful day.

No, I don't believe in war.

STING2 09-23-2002 09:32 PM

I believe in defending oneself and others. To not do so in my opinion is immoral. Sometimes the only way to successfully defend oneself and others, is through force.

martha 09-23-2002 09:46 PM

About seven weeks after my foot surgery, I was allowed to hobble around my house as much as I wanted. It wasn't easy, but I could do it. Walking barefoot was especially difficult.

One evening, as I was nearly in bed, I thought I heard voices out in the front yard. My husband was working in the garage with the door open. My husband is about 6'3'' and quite capable of handling himself, yet when I heard those voices, I thought someone was in the front yard, giving my husband a hard time. I stumped down the hall and toward the front door, ready to kick some ass if neccessary. I thought someone was going to hurt my husband, and I was going to do something about it. In my nightgown, with fresh scars on both feet, unable to walk upright. Of course, no one was there.


So, no, I'm not a pacifist as far as an immediate threat to my loved ones. But I don't think war is the answer to the problems we have around the world today.

U2Bama 09-23-2002 09:58 PM

I am pretty certain that he says something on the Enhanced CD (disc 3) of the "Concert for a Free Tibet" set that he is not a pacifist but admires pacifism.

~U2Alabama

hiphop 09-24-2002 03:31 PM

Re: Bono a pacifist?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MadelynIris
We all think we know the man better than we really do....

Is Bono a pacifist? Was he ever?

Are you a pacifist? Some degree of a pacifist?

Would you defend yourself? If so under what circumstances?

Or would you turn the other cheek? If so, why?

Thanks,
Mark

Before to answer you, I would like to know who you regard as a pacifist. What feeling do you have when you hear this word? What do you think of pacifists?

I think it doesnīt matter how you call someone who is against war. Bono imho is against war, no matter what he mumbles to hotpress about pacifism. Heīd prefer to talk about cynicism.

And by the way I know rockstars donīt like to be labelled. It destroys the flexible image they have built up.

joyfulgirl 09-24-2002 04:22 PM

Re: Re: Bono a pacifist?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Before to answer you, I would like to know who you regard as a pacifist. What feeling do you have when you hear this word? What do you think of pacifists?

I think it doesnīt matter how you call someone who is against war. Bono imho is against war, no matter what he mumbles to hotpress about pacifism. Heīd prefer to talk about cynicism.


Good point. Maybe Bono says he's not a pacifist because he might slug somebody during a drunken barroom brawl.

I agree with martha. Somebody comes after me or mine, I will defend myself. But war is another story.

Moonlit_Angel 09-24-2002 06:17 PM

Re: Re: Bono a pacifist?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Before to answer you, I would like to know who you regard as a pacifist. What feeling do you have when you hear this word? What do you think of pacifists?

I think it doesnīt matter how you call someone who is against war. Bono imho is against war, no matter what he mumbles to hotpress about pacifism. Heīd prefer to talk about cynicism.

And by the way I know rockstars donīt like to be labelled. It destroys the flexible image they have built up.

Agreed.

Angela

MadelynIris 09-24-2002 08:52 PM

Quote:

Somebody comes after me or mine, I will defend myself. But war is another story
What if 'yours' what one of the 3000 killed in the WTC?

How would you defend yourself in that respect? How would you keep it (or something similar) from happening again?

In response to what I think a pacifist is:

Someone who will not resort to violence for any reason.

In my opinion:

Bono: No
Jesus: No
Gandhi: Yes.

cell 09-24-2002 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadelynIris


What if 'yours' what one of the 3000 killed in the WTC?

How would you defend yourself in that respect? How would you keep it (or something similar) from happening again?

In response to what I think a pacifist is:

Someone who will not resort to violence for any reason.

In my opinion:

Bono: No
Jesus: No
Gandhi: Yes.


:up:

MadelynIris 09-24-2002 09:19 PM

For instance... what if one the of the school children trapped in Ivory Coast was yours? Would you want them to send troops in...

read: https://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?o...A47B24E48982FE

Troops? If you were really against war, you wouldn't even have an army? Aren't you just going to cause more innocent bloodshed by sending warmongers to the area?

Or is the a noble cause for war?

Mark

U2Bama 09-24-2002 09:47 PM

We should also remember that the United States is not technically a "Christian nation." We have seperation of church & state and thus are not necessarily bound, governmentally, by any religous rules of pacifism.

~U2Alabama

STING2 09-25-2002 01:22 AM

HIPHOP,

BONO did say he supported George Bush's war on terrorism in the IRISH HOT PRESS article 9 months ago. He said Bush's handling of the war was right on.

Also Bono and the rest of U2 pressed for US military action in Bosnia. This was in the book 'Until the End Of the World'.

hiphop 09-25-2002 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by STING2
HIPHOP,

BONO did say he supported George Bush's war on terrorism in the IRISH HOT PRESS article 9 months ago. He said Bush's handling of the war was right on.

Also Bono and the rest of U2 pressed for US military action in Bosnia. This was in the book 'Until the End Of the World'.

Yeah I can imagine that, especially 9 months ago. With the rage of the entertainment industry who is blocking and dissing everyone who uses a slightly critical tone towards American policies, with the pressure that you are automatically labelled as anti american, with the tour Bono lead in Africa to get support by OīNeill, I think he wouldnīt do himself a favor by saying anything else.

If I was in his position, I would probably do the same. Still, I am the opinion that Bono is against war.

The Bosnia situation was a very different one. Please, lets stop throwing apples and oranges around, I mean, comparisons with the second world war, comparisons Saddam Hitler, comparisons Iraq Bosnia --- people where are you living? :tsk:

You donīt think U2 still want to sell a few millions of records on the big U.S. market.

MadelynIris:

Maybe Bono isnīt a pacifist. Who cares? Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. But please explain me why Jesus wasnīt a pacifist and Gandhi yes.

After all, it was Jesus who turned the other cheek, didnīt he?

After all Jesus said LOVE YOUR ENEMIES - or didnīt he?

anitram 09-25-2002 10:18 AM

I think absolute pacifism = Gandhi. Anti-war pacifism is another matter.

If everybody was anti-war, there would be no need for noble wars, would there? Sure it's an idealistic idea, but nonetheless it doesn't make it untrue.

RE: Bosnia: Please don't talk to me about non-pacifism in Bosnia. If the West had done something in 1991 when they should have and when the Serbs were slaughtering people en masse in places like Vukovar, we wouldn't have 250,000 corpses lying about there. There are sins of omission, and this one's one of them. (I believe the entire struggle could have been avoided if the West had accepted independence from the republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia immediately. But they didn't. In the end, they needed force to deal with the consequences of problems they didn't want to admit were there a decade earlier).

hiphop 09-25-2002 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by anitram
RE: Bosnia: Please don't talk to me about non-pacifism in Bosnia. If the West had done something in 1991 when they should have and when the Serbs were slaughtering people en masse in places like Vukovar, we wouldn't have 250,000 corpses lying about there. There are sins of omission, and this one's one of them. (I believe the entire struggle could have been avoided if the West had accepted independence from the republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia immediately. But they didn't. In the end, they needed force to deal with the consequences of problems they didn't want to admit were there a decade earlier).
Can we avoid to discuss about Bosnia, please, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

STING2 09-25-2002 03:43 PM

Antrium,

I'm well aware for the failure of the west to act until 1995. I certainly believe that NATO should of acted strongly before June of 1991! You are correct that hundreds of thousands of people would be alive. The USA wanted to act by 1993, but was contrained by the opinions of its NATO allies. Bono was aware of this and damned the Europeans for not supporting US action earlier. While the USA was late to act, it did act and saved hundreds of thousands of other people that are alive today.

STING2 09-25-2002 03:55 PM

HIPHOP,

Bosnia is a war and peace issue, US servicemen are there right now keeping the peace. Were not just talking about Iraq in this thread, were talking about Bono's opinions on the issue of war and peace. I have brought out factual statements by Bono in support of US military action in the Balkans and on the war in terrorism. This is Bono going on the record on these things. If you want to make believe that Bono was lying or really has a different opinion on those issue's, then that is your belief, but it is not supported by hard fact. I could just as easily say with your logic that Bono has supported every US military intervention over the past 200 years, and that he has only occasionally opposed US intervention in certain area's to sell more records.

Really, Its pointless to speculate on Bono's real feelings on a wide range of politcal issue's that he has not spoken about. We can look at what he has factualy said about things, but should not try to explain away what he has said to squeeze Bono in to our own political view. Bono is a complex individual like we all are, and most likely has some political views that none of us would support as well as some we would all agree with. But he is not a politician with a voting record, and the vast majority of his views are unknown.

hiphop 09-26-2002 12:08 PM

However great U.S. military presence in former Yugoslavia may be, I donīt want to discuss about that issue because I have seen too much hate on every side that was involved.

I am not trying to twist Bonos words around to fit my political views. I simply think he is against war. Very simple. The reason I think so is written down in the texts of U2s songs, at the very least I interprete them like that, yes, every work of art is opened to every interpretation. :yawn:

If you think Bullet the blue sky is a pro war song, so be it. If you think you can strengthen your arguments by quoting what Bono says here or there on the war on terrorism or the situation in Bosnia, so be it. If you think it is a discussion about Bonoīs opinion on war/ peace without relating to a concrete issue, then please explain, Mark, why you linked that issue to the victims of the WTC in your second post. And explain why Jesus is not a pacifist.

I agree with your last paragraph though, STING2. Nobody knows what Bono really thinks. We canīt crawl into his brain, can we?

I believe there is no noble cause for war, Mark. War in itself is so cruel that it is never justified.

A preemptive strike canīt be self defense. A preemptive strike is an attack. No matter about who has the right to do what, a strike without personally being attacked is no self defense, and neither gets self defense in a big propaganda rush of justifying future wars.

Compare it with hooligans: if I see a buch of those weirdos, I wouldnīt think to fire a bullet just because they might hurt me. They might, because after all theyīre hooligans, but if they donīt threaten me with their weapons actively (not passively, it is not enough that I see they are carrying knives), I donīt have the right to pull out my gun and to shoot them. This wouldnīt be self defense in front of any American or European court.

STING2 09-26-2002 02:19 PM

It would be if they had broken into their house. By your logic I guess my father and friends who have served in the military or are serving in the military are evil. I guess when a Police officer uses deadly force to defend innocent people is evil. I don't see it as wrong to pre-emt the actions of others who plan to do harm to innocent civilians at all. If war is never justified, then fighting for one's own life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is never justified either. I certainly do NOT agree with that. My Great, Great, Great, Great, Grandfather was at the first battle in the American Revolutionary war at Lexington and Concord. I admire his and others courage on that tough day in defense of freedom. I think it is wrong to stand by and do NOTHING when it is obvious that there are threats to security that could kill thousands of innocent people. Waiting and appeasement is what killed millions of people in World War II. I'm happy we have a president, and a congress(both democrat and republican) that realize these threats and are ready to pass a resolution approving the use of force if need be, to defend US and international security.

I never said Bullet The Blue Sky was a pro-war song, but I don't think its necessarily an anti-war song either. Its an anti- American intervention in central America of the type seen in the mid-80s. It a political arguement about a specific issue. No one likes war at all, except some sick individuals Saddam being one of them. BONO would himself kill anyone who threatened or tried to kill any of his childern. He has already alluded to this in past interviews. I think what he says in an interview does not explain his views on everything, but its certainly more revealing than one's interpertations of songs which may actually be incorrect.


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