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-   -   the lurking "alter"s (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/the-lurking-alter-s-61376.html)

KingPin 07-29-2002 04:16 PM

the lurking "alter"s
 
Okay... I know that my presence on this forum has upset some... I certainly never meant to start such a hubbub, but when you express opinions, or defend people, you run the risk of attack... I've had Achtung Bubba argue with me and against me... same goes for Whenhiphopdrovethebigcars. And I've enjoyed my time here... but I'm a little miffed.

In one thread, Z Edge referred to my defence of Like Someone To Blame, and how he referred to my posts. He accused me of being an alter because I had a low post count, had arrived recently and was in agreement with Like Someone To Blame. I calmly showed why this is not the case... such as my registration being much older, my location, my info, and letting everyone know they could check my IP to clarify this. I don't hide behind anything.

Yet, recently over the weekend, in the thread concerning Bush, 9/11, and a few other topics, a gentleman named "Spyplane" quoted me, and through a blue streak of cursing, told me to shut the F*** up, that my thread was crap, that I should spread my ignorance elsewhere, and that I am "by far the most despicable member of this forum". The thread closed before I had a chance to respond.

Only today did I find out that Z Edge and Spyplane are the same.

This post is just to clarify:

1. I am not an alter. When asked of this, I did everything I could to prove that fact.

2. Spyplane, the member who tore me a new one, is an alter of Z Edge, who originally questioned my motives.

3. This kind of stuff is ridiculous. Changing users in order to post attacks is a bit excessive. Come on.

4. I look forward to further posts on the forum.


PS To Sicy, or anybody else who thinks this was inappropriate, I only wanted to clarify things so that everyone knew that I'm not an alter, and that I've got one person acting as three in order to muscle (LoveMuscle??) me out of the forum. A PM wouldn't have really accomplished that. But if you want to remove it, fine.

diamond 07-29-2002 04:21 PM

Never liked alters.
I is who I is.
DB9:cool:

sulawesigirl4 07-29-2002 04:30 PM

shockingly enough, this is one thing that db9 and I agree on. lol. I don't care for alters. I feel that if I have something to say, I can have the balls (metaphoric of course) to say it under my own name and stand by it.

In any case, Kingpin, you've been around here for some time and have been a legit identity to my knowledge. I can vouch for that.

Sicy 07-29-2002 04:36 PM

Re: the lurking "alter"s
 
Quote:

Originally posted by KingPin
Yet, recently over the weekend, in the thread concerning Bush, 9/11, and a few other topics, a gentleman named "Spyplane" quoted me, and through a blue streak of cursing, told me to shut the F*** up, that my thread was crap, that I should spread my ignorance elsewhere, and that I am "by far the most despicable member of this forum". The thread closed before I had a chance to respond.
Is this true? Show me the link please. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

Quote:

1. I am not an alter. When asked of this, I did everything I could to prove that fact.
You are not bonoman? I just did an ip check.

KingPin 07-29-2002 04:41 PM

Nope... check again... I registered in 2000 in Newfoundland, and I'm now posting in Edmonton, if that helps. I post from my work computer or home computer.

I'll send you the post with that "report to moderator" thing. I figured you'd read it because the thread was closed.

oh, and the defense of my being NOT an alter is on page 4 of the "Do you have blacks too" thread. actually it's here

Sicy 07-29-2002 05:05 PM

I have read the thread in question and have discussed the situation with Elvis.

The whole thread is a nightmare imo, Spyplane is not the only one out of line, but the fact remains that use of alters to basically just 'talk shit' or say things that you dont want to say under your original username is prohibited and will be cause for removal.

Alters are a priveledge.

diamond 07-29-2002 05:07 PM

KingPin
Is an ok fellow.
When he becomes natuarlize US Citizen -he will be ready to become a Republican;)jk.:D
Diamond:cool:

z edge 07-29-2002 08:27 PM

First off Kingpin
Everyone knows (I assumed) that I am Spyplane and LOVE MUSCLE.

Obviously, so you were told by somebody as well.

2nd
I posted the other night as whoever I was logged in as.
I get a lot of PM's, for each handle
I logged in each handle to check them then stayed on that handle for a while.

I did not think you were an alter for Like Someone to Blame, that was your assumption. I did question why you chose to answer for someone so much in that other thread.

Why someone chose to make such hateful comments about conservatives then run and hide, while you defended him.

And why he was even allowed to make these comments and accuse all conservatives of Genocide

And I do suspect you to be an alter who is making insidious comments to try and cause the removal of one or two members here, that is namely myself.

I have shared this theory with others as well.

3rd
To the MODS
This would have never happened if you had done your job

Why would you allow Kingpin to make these comments, or Like Someone to Blame?

It goes back to the same old thing as before, you will allow just about any type of behavior of a non-conservative american member.

They can say whatever they want in here. It is everywhere.
They start the same damn threads cleverly disguised day in and day out. And you mods even respond to them waiting for a conservative to get out of line and then close it so we can look bad.

Yet the non-conservatives can post the following:

compare Bush to Hitler
blame Bush for 911
accuse Bush for drug use, awol, murder
all conservatives committ genocide and
starve the elderly
say that our military is a joke
we deserved 911


I could go on and on and on..........

In fact, one particular individual called me personally a coward 5 times in one post. And that thread went on for like 50 more posts until it was closed by a mod for a mere "observation" I made that was not in any way cruel or intended as such, as the mod accused me of at the time.

Yet when I questioned the mod about this, they claimed they never even saw the post where I was called a coward yet they had replied to the thread (if the post has not been deleted by now).

This brings up another interesting point. Remember the HORROR? Banned for complaining about all of the America-bashing. Banned in like 50-60 posts. Yet look at these folks here who call themselves progressive liberals and yet they get away with far, far worse.

Which brings up another point.

How many conservative American mods do we have here?

DO I need to go any further?

Don't you think this is a little biased? A conflict of intrest on the mods part?

Damn right it is!

Folks, if you hadn't neglected your post or if we didn't have a conflict of intrest here this situation wouldn't exist.

diamond 07-29-2002 08:33 PM

ZEdge-
Nice points.:idea:

They needed to be said:idea:

Now chill for a bit..
Our numbers may be small here however we are strong.:idea:
I dont need you becoming a Martyr..;)

Your Friend-
Diamond

z edge 07-29-2002 08:41 PM

Another point that I forgot to make.

I take this very seriously because I am a veteran and I have given service to my country that I love. I am highly offended on a daily basis and only come here to sort of defend the honor that is being shit upon daily. I do take this very personal, as I have a direct line to what is going on in the world. Do any of you? Could you expect to even understand how I feel?

I have stated repeatedly that I will not run and cry to a moderator if someone lashes out at me as they do almost daily. And yet I encourage others to PM me or bring it to me if they have a problem, not run tell like a coward.

I do take this very seriously, and I will be attending many many shows again next tour.

KhanadaRhodes 07-29-2002 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by z edge
To the MODS
This would have never happened if you had done your job

i don't do a lot of posting in FYM, but i do a lot of reading. of course, i'm not a mod and i'm certainly not going to speak on behalf of them, but i don't think it's right to bash the mods. they do their jobs as best as they can. i'm not saying they're perfect or anything because they are only human, but they do a damn good job at running this forum. and now that they are adding on more and more moderators, soon this forum should run totally smoothly, where problems rarely, rarely arise. but now i shall go back to lurk mode here in FYM, especially in this thread.

Sicy 07-29-2002 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by z edge
They can say whatever they want in here. It is everywhere.
They start the same damn threads cleverly disguised day in and day out. And you mods even respond to them waiting for a conservative to get out of line and then close it so we can look bad.

I dont give a rats ass if you're a conservative, liberal, republican whatthehellever ok its all greek to me.

What I do see is the way people interact with others.. I honestly did not see the name coward 5 times.. if you would like to point that out to me that would be lovely. What I did see is this

Quote:

Fucking prove he has used drugs or shut the FUCK up.
Quote:

Excuse me, but who in the fuck are YOU to accuse every President of the USA of lies and scandals?
Quote:

How you could possibly post such utter bullshit is beyond me.
You have been posting this kind of crap constantly.
Why?
Your thread is crap.
Quote:

You are by far the most despicable member of this forum
Rude rude rude insults.

I have also warned him as well to cut with the insults.

There is no need to slam each other here! This forum is a god damn priveledge. Why can you people DISCUSS instead of yell and swear and cut each other down?? You want Free your mind wiped right outta here?? Cuz it can happen and you guys can go post your political crap on a politcal message board.

Miss MacPhisto 07-29-2002 09:20 PM

I didnt read the whole thread and i'm not taking anyones side, but...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by z edge
I have stated repeatedly that I will not run and cry to a moderator if someone lashes out at me as they do almost daily. And yet I encourage others to PM me or bring it to me if they have a problem, not run tell like a coward.


Well, I have to agree with this statement. This is usually the best way to handle it in most cases. I wish more people did this, instead of acting like a spolied brat and going crying to a mod or Elvis, like a couple people have been known to do constantly, over the least little thing.
Unfortunately, i think in the future, i personally will have to simply report it as doing anything else will just get me into trouble. :rolleyes:
No one will ever take my side though. :rolleyes:

There is a bias, but not just against conservatives... *sigh*
:eyebrow:

BAW 07-29-2002 09:21 PM

Well said Khanada :up:

Since when is it the mods responsiblity to babysit a bunch of adults who can't have a civilized conversation? When 2 little kids can't get along, the grownups usually come along and tell them to go home...that's supposed to stop when you reach "adulthood." The mods version of sending the bad kids home is to close a thread.

And when they close a thread, its for a reason. I've said it before and I'll say it again...they do this job voluntarily and they put up with major bulls**t to do it.

Quote:

Originally posted by KhanadaRhodes

i don't do a lot of posting in FYM, but i do a lot of reading. of course, i'm not a mod and i'm certainly not going to speak on behalf of them, but i don't think it's right to bash the mods. they do their jobs as best as they can. i'm not saying they're perfect or anything because they are only human, but they do a damn good job at running this forum. and now that they are adding on more and more moderators, soon this forum should run totally smoothly, where problems rarely, rarely arise. but now i shall go back to lurk mode here in FYM, especially in this thread.


diamond 07-29-2002 09:35 PM

Sicy is a decent Mod.
She even tolerates me an avowed drunk Repulican;)

ZEdge is a stand up guy:)

The Mods should b as there title suggests..Moderate not babysit.

DB9:cool:

Sicy 07-29-2002 09:38 PM

I appreciate your support BAW and Khanada.. and I guess diamond.. :eyebrow:

Lilly 07-29-2002 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diamond

I dont need you becoming a Martyr..;)

martyr...as in dying for the conservative cause? that's bullshit and you know it. you need to stop putting so much stock in having biases against or for people depending on their political affiliation. it's pointless and only ends up with a big fight. so be the big group and stop it first. ok?

as for what happened...reconcile and move on.

your own behavior is not caused by the mods, so move on.

z edge 07-29-2002 09:44 PM

Sicy
I cannot find the thread because my "search" feature sin't working...

The coward bit took place in a thread titled Prior Knowledge of September 11 which I believe was started by Koby

Also, like I stated before I do not tattle- tell on other members I perfer to deal with the person or individual who has the complaint or post I have issue with.

And since my search feature is mucked up, I could go thread to thread and report posts to moderator if you wish for proof of bad behavior from Kingpin and Like Someone to Blame

I would not ever want to be a moderator myself, for the reasons Khandar pointed out.

My point was if there is a conflict of intrest, as I believe there is (and not with Sicy but the others) how can one moderate?

And if you choose to close down FYM, I really wouldn't loose any sleep.

Again look at the daily thread titles and thread topics. I ask you to read any and all threads dealing with President Bush, America, 911, or politics peroid.

I will be reporting posts to you as I come across them starting now.

My reaction was unfortunate but a result of constantly being subjected to this trash from Kingpin and others. I am sure it all went according to his plan though, almost.

Sicy 07-29-2002 09:47 PM

No see diamond has to chime in with his 'I agree with you brother___ blah' and 'Right on blah blah ___'. And stick his dry humor in where it doesnt belong or when crap has nothing to do with him at all.

He wont stop. For some reason he thinks he's funny.

Sicy 07-29-2002 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by z edge
I will be reporting posts to you as I come across them starting now.
I encourage people to do this IF matters cannot be resolved between the parties via PM or if words from the moderators cannot resolve the situation. It's not necessarily 'tattling' ok.. that's what Elvis and I are here for unfortunatly.

diamond 07-29-2002 10:05 PM

Sicy and Lilly-
I have friends from all polictical persuassions.:yes:

Ask ppl like Someone To Blame, Dr Who, Melon and ZEdge.:idea:
I do consider this thread a serious matter.

I know when to joke and when not to...

Peace-
DB9
:idea:

Achtung Bubba 07-30-2002 02:51 AM

While we have the moderators' attention, I would like to bring up what I said in an earlier thread, concerning "Like Some to Blame," a/k/a Rob.

(This may be more appropriate for a private message, but that route has already been tried, and I have been waiting for a response for thirteen days.)

Rob started this whole thing by saying that Republicans are more "nasty and hypocritical." I replied with the following:

Quote:

Am I the ONLY forum member who recalls Democrats accusing Republicans of WANTING to starve kids, kill the elder, and destroy the environment? Anybody remember why? Because the recently elected GOP-led Congress (c. 1995) wanted to decrease spending increases from THREE TIMES the rate of inflation to only TWICE the rate.

...

But WE conservatives are the nasty ones?

RIIIIGHT.

Rob's reply?

Quote:

Geez, now that you mention it...I do indeed remember Republicans WANTING to starve kids, kill the elderly, and destroy the environment. Well, practice does make perfect...so eventually they might accomplish this. So much for compassionate conservatism...
In another reply, he added, "many examples exist of Republican efforts to destroy the environment, starve kids, and hurt the elderly."

It certainly appears that Rob was legitimately suggesting that Republicans DESIRE to cause the deaths of elderly, the starvation of children, and environmental ruination. Besides the non-evidence of ANWR, he has not backed up his offensive accusation; he has in fact refused to answer my request for proof:

Quote:

Let me tell ya something. I make arguments and rebuttals here on MY TIME, not yours. Deal with it.
Further, he has not retracted the accusation as gross exaggeration or as unsuccessful sarcasm.

KingPin has often suggested that Rob was being sarcastic, and Rob did little more than say, "Kingpin said it perfectly. I have nothing further to add." (If he was being sarcastic, why? Democrats DID accuse Republicans of those very acts, as I documented in detail.)

He himself never did admit to being sarcastic or sincere, despite my many attempts to get a straight answer to the simple question, "were you being sarcastic?"

But what he DID do was suggest that the Bush Administration either planned or allowed 9/11 for the sake of oil interests - another grossly offensive accusation that makes me believe that he does sincerely believe Republicans WANT to kill the old, starve the young, and destroy the planet.

I reiterate what I said nearly two weeks ago:

Quote:

In the end, I ask only two things. First, I ask that everyone would consider how offensive Rob's accusation really is and refrain from such an accusation unless there is an avanlanche of evidence to suggest otherwise. Second, I ask the moderators to consider equating such an accusation to the use of the "Nazi" epithet - a word that Elvis has already criticized in detail.

If that is not going to happen, I would appreciate the moderators telling us as quickly as possible, so that we conservative Republicans can reconsider whether the discussions in this forum are worth the cost of subjecting ourselves to this openly hostile environment.

I believe Rob's comments - first that Republicans want to kill the elderly, then suggesting that Bush allowed 9/11 for "big oil" - are as offensive as the "Nazi" epithet itself.

I believe they SHOULD NOT be made in jest.

I believe that, if they are going to be made sincerely, they should be backed up with something resembling evidence - that those making the accusation should be made to "put up or shut up."


I am wondering - I have been wondering - what the moderators believe.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that some other liberal on this forum genuiney accuses Republicans of WANTING to kill/harm the elderly, starve children, and destroy the environment (or something equally heinous) - and does so with no substantial proof.

How would the moderators respond?

I ask because I am weary of these accusations going unnoticed and unchecked. I don't believe that the conservatives and Republicans in this forum should be subject to constant comparisons to Adolph Hitler and Nazism (or "Nationalist Socialism", as one clever forum member phrased it).

We don't make similarly offensive accusations - I can only imagine the backlash if we did - and I believe z edge is right in suggesting that the only thing that happens is WE are made to look bad when we defend ourselves against these idiotic suggestions.

(The accusations ARE idiotic.)

There are members on this forum getting away with calling us evil. We should not be asked to tolerate this, and I personally will NOT tolerate this.

If this situation does not improve, I will leave.

Sicy 07-30-2002 02:57 AM

If we banned everyone that was nasty in this forum there would be like 5 people left to post here.

The appropriate parties will receive thier warnings.

Rono 07-30-2002 03:02 AM

Hey Bubba, do this by PM please. This looks like you trying to nail somebody to the wall in public.

Rono 07-30-2002 03:03 AM

Damn, i need to much time foor a reply, sorry.

Achtung Bubba 07-30-2002 03:31 AM

Rono, I DID try the PM route two weeks ago, as I said in the thread above.

Sicy,

I personally am not asking for people to be banned - just that seriously offensive accusations be made carefully, not sarcastically, and not without evidence. In the case of the accusations made by "Like Someone to Blame," I would expect the mods to at least say something like this:

That's a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you mean that? :eyebrow:

That might even be enough to dissuade forum members from making such egregious claims.

Instead, the moderators have closed threads without explaining who is in the wrong. And - despite several requests, both public AND private - the moderators have remained dead silent about Rob's comments.

I ask again, how would the moderators react to another accusation that conservatives or Republicans want to harm the elderly, destory the environment, or do something else along those lines?

Klodomir 07-30-2002 03:38 AM

I'm happy with the way things are. My main concern is that topics are posted to the correct forum, so I'd be perfectly happy if the mods only took care of that. If someone posts something I find to be offensive, I'll tell them. I also have a finely tuned bullshit filter, so if a thread turns too moronic, I'll stop reading it, and there are certain individuals whose posts I don't even read. And if things get really stupid, I'll leave for a while. I'm mellow. :)

zooropamanda 07-30-2002 03:40 AM

If this is a rule, that alters shouldn't be used to voice opinions that people aren't willing to voice as their real handle here, shouldn't that be everywhere in the forum?
There are people elsewhere who have used this trick many times.
Personally, I think it should be addressed in all parts of feedback.

Salome 07-30-2002 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by z edge
3rd
To the MODS
This would have never happened if you had done your job

in the past I did ask people to tone down their posts
+ I closed a few threads when I thought those threads were only started to annoy other forum members

z edge, in this forum you have called me "anti-Bush" and "anti-US"
I already mentioned back then that I didn't like that at all because A) I don't think it's true and B) since most people at this forum are from the US it makes my position as a mod very difficult when people think I am biased (I already know you think I'm biased - you even mentioned in this thread you felt mods are biased)

so my situtaion now is this:
if I post my opinion or try to do my job as a mod (because I feel a line is crossed) in certain threads where you and I don't agree I am made out to completely biased in my actions
if I keep my mouth shut I can't possibly do my job as a mod in threads where you and I both agree that people cross a line
then I truly would be biased


but since it has been established I am "anti-Bush", "anti-US" and that I don't do my job as a mod I don't doubt for a minute that you don't care

brettig 07-30-2002 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Klodomir
I'm mellow. :)
and a pragmatist! well said.

diamond 07-30-2002 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sicy
If we banned everyone that was nasty in this forum there would be like 5 people left to post here.

.

This is the most accurate statment The Goddess has made in a long time:yes:;)

Peace
DB9
:idea:

kobayashi 07-30-2002 10:21 AM

this is nuts
 
but i'm starting to think its inevitable.

when you enter this forum...remember its name.

Laura M 07-30-2002 10:36 AM

I love having a good discussion in here- and like the abortion thread i really like it- because im allowed to say what i like and i love seeing what another person thinks- i have never had a fight in here :angel: Why cant everyone else jsut be civilised- everyone else will have a different opinion from on you on different subjects- deal with it-deal with it ppl :( !

I hate when ppl fight :(

Like someone to blame 07-30-2002 11:19 AM

Wow, the preponderance of lies, out-of-context quotes, and pissing and moaning from the likes of z edge and Bubba is immature and quite entertaining. For the record: Bubba and z edge dislike me because I refuse to take their conservative philosophies and theories as gospel. Specifically, they dislike me because they somehow think that if I want to express an opinion contrary to their conservative beliefs than it is somehow hateful, disengenuous, and personal. Bubba has relentlessly been attempting to spin the whole "conservatives want to destroy the environment" thing as if I was the member who initiated such talk when in fact it has been established that it was HE who made the remark first...I simply repeated his words (which he repeatedly/conveniently FORGETS to bring up). Secondly, now he thinks that because I and a few other members SUGGEST that it is POSSIBLE (those were my words) that the Bush administration had prior knowledge/involvement in 9/11 that we are somehow guilty of promoting GENOCIDE similar to the plight of the Jews during the Hitler years on this board. Laughable, really. My suggesting that 9/11 MAY have had Bush admin knowledge is admittedly remote and certainly not a theory that will get one widespread support in this country, yet I do believe it is, at the very least, POSSIBLE given the information that exists out there. But you see, Bubba and z edge don't like this SUGGESTION so they therefore try to spin this as if I and others are promoting hate and genocide-which any sane individual here realizes is NOT what we have done. We simply floated an idea/theory contrary to theirs and in true conservative fashion they are trying to suppress our (my) right to free speech and make US out to be the "bad guys."

I'm really not sure what Bubba believes is so overwhelmingly hateful about me stating that I believe Republicans are more "nasty and hypocritical" than Democrats. That is simply my view of the two parties and their operatives...extremely hateful, isn't it? (sarcasm implied for those who need assistance deciphering such comments.)

Bubba, you really need to move on with your life and get over this crusade you have with slandering me, quoting me out of context, putting your "spin" on all my posts, and trying to portray me as some unpatriotic, hatemonger. Shame on you for your public crusade against me, shame on you for trying to control the terms of every debate, shame on you for driving a wedge amongst forum members. I'm afraid that this discussion forum is ruining your health and consumming you...I hope that is not the case.

I honestly find much of Bubba's and z edges rants amusing...I really do laugh quite frequently at your outlandish remarks whose only purpose is to suppress the views/thoughts of those who disagree with you. So WHAT if I believe Republicans are "nasty", so WHAT if I believe they want to "destroy the environment", so WHAT if I believe our government isn't blameless for 9/11,...so WHAT??? At the end of the day it IS JUST SOMEONE'S OPINION!!! The stuff most conservatives float here is GARGAGE in my opinion...yet it hardly affects my personal (real world) life. I don't talk about it at the dinner table with my wife...I don't talk about it at church...or the office...it doesn't consume my every thought...I don't get angry for long periods of time...what DOES consume me is God, my beautiful wife, my family, U2's music and message, the Boston Red Sox, The Dallas Cowboys, whitewater rafting, work, politics, and way down on the list...what some conservative forum member may have said in this discussion forum...because at the END OF MY DAY...I really don't care-it's that simple.

For the record: I have no alter-I don't need to hide behind one. When I've got something to say I say it. I find the alter thing a bit obsessive and dishonest. I mean, take any thread you like here in this particular forum. Let's say I start it with a liberal view. Next thing you know you've got responses floating conservative views from three different "members"...yet they are actually the same views from the SAME member. Why does one do this? Well, I think it is a possible attempt in THEIR mind to even the playing field, possibly, with the liberal members here since they somehow seem to think they (the conservatives) are outnumbered. Secondly, I think it is a means by which they can post hit and run, largely personally degrading attacks, without having to stand up to them. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

It is my belief that what has transpired over the last few weeks here in cyberspace is purely a reflection of today's politcal climate in the real world, i.e. Republican attack dogs spinning stories and quoting out of context to further their extreme agenda and suppress the opposing view. I'm just trying to provide some balance, expose their tactics, and educate those who are impartial. Bubba has called me, (amongst other things) an "intellectual coward", which is very entertaining. For the record (again) I have point-counterpointed Bubba on EVERY issue/challenge he has thrown my way, from the Laugher curve on down the line (any impartial observer would draw this conclusion). So why would he make such a statement? Answer: It's just what Republicans in this country do when they are on the defensive...they sling mud....twist facts...and attack their opponent to shift the focus away from the actual debate at hand. You see, Bubba, if you want to play fair than I will...but I won't sit back and let you disparage my good name here in your dilusional attempt to silence my progressive voice.

To those who have been following Bubba's relentless demand (for Bubba doesn't "request" anything here) for me to a)explain whether my reply to HIS statement about Republicans wanting to destroy the environment, starve children, and kill the elderly and b)cite examples of this I say: what purpose would this serve? For IF I believe HIS statement and IF I bring forth examples it will only serve to fuel Bubba's ego, increase his blood pressure, and, in true Bubba fashion, he would arbitrarily REJECT my examples as nonsense and "cowardness". So really, NOTHING could be gained from such an exercise EXCEPT to further fuel Bubba's attacks against me and provide him with the satisfaction that his "demand" was met...which I will not do...because I'm not here to satisfy Bubba's demands. If I'm a "coward" for that in Bubba's mind than so be it...it won't affect any aspect of my life.

I have not used profanity here nor (I believe) broken any rules of the Interference agreement while posting in this forum. It is for this reason that I believe the moderators have disregarded Bubba's demand to enforce some sort of actions against me and realize, from the examples offered by Kinpin and others, that I have NOT lobbed hateful remarks at Bubba or z edge. These pleas to the moderators for some sort of action is perplexing when all I've done is offered opinions that a few outspoken forum members don't agree with. I believe the moderators understand this and see how some here are spinning my words in an blatant attempt to not only portray me as hatemonger but in the larger attempt to silence me in this forum. Furthermore, I think they see the overall RIDICULOUSNESS of Bubba's problems with me and Kingpin. Disclaimer: I'm not trying to speak for any of the moderators here-just making my own observations.

Finally, I resent the fact that Bubba and, to a lesser extent z edge, aka Love Muscle, aka Spyplane, have ganged up on me here in an obvious attempt to control the terms of the debate by relentlessly making a distorted, hyperbole laced argument that I am somehow insulting them because I don't agree with their conservative beliefs. Too bad. You don't agree with MY progressive beliefs and you don't see ME pissing and moaning all over the forum about it. As Bono says in "Bad" ...'let it go'. When you are ready to engage in constructive debate and are done publicly smearing and railroading me, than I'm ready...but I'm not holding my breath.

Like someone to blame 07-30-2002 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Rono, I DID try the PM route two weeks ago, as I said in the thread above.

Sicy,

I personally am not asking for people to be banned - just that seriously offensive accusations be made carefully, not sarcastically, and not without evidence. In the case of the accusations made by "Like Someone to Blame," I would expect the mods to at least say something like this:

That's a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you mean that? :eyebrow:

That might even be enough to dissuade forum members from making such egregious claims.

Instead, the moderators have closed threads without explaining who is in the wrong. And - despite several requests, both public AND private - the moderators have remained dead silent about Rob's comments.

I ask again, how would the moderators react to another accusation that conservatives or Republicans want to harm the elderly, destory the environment, or do something else along those lines?

First of all...STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT APPEAR AS IF I WAS THE ONE WHO MADE THE ABOVE ACCUSATION...IT WAS Y-O-U and if you are so interested in seeing the mods response than make the accusation again and see what happens.

Egregious claims??? A HUGE stretch of one's imagination I would say and hardly a "pretty serious accusation" as you promote, which probably explains why the moderators have ignored your demands for action. If this was such a "serious" accusation than I guess all members of Congress on both sides of the aisle should be spanked or locked up...for this stuff is floated daily in both chambers, in particular when committee's are in session. I think you will find many people in this country who do in fact believe that Republican policies hurt the environment, harm the elderly etc etc. Hardly an accusation, really, in their minds. Why you are so upset about the statement that YOU originally made is baffling, when it does nothing to attack you personally or your character. True, by saying that Republicans want to destroy the environment etc it lumps ALL Republicans into that category...but rational folk are able to comprehend that a comment such as that doesn't correspond to THEM, the individual. Republicans always accuse the Democrats of trying to ruin the economy with high taxes and big goverment...maybe I should ask to have YOUR views on the economy suppressed here because that is such a wild accusation (imo) that it hurts my feelings?????? See the sheer nonsense of your argument?

Klodomir 07-30-2002 12:26 PM

I'm glad I'm not a mod. Bubba, I really don't understand why you expect them to be the PC Police here, especially when we are talking about ideas/ideologies being attacked, not people on this board. We are all adults here, even if we don't always act that way, and this is just the internet. If you can't handle it, then read something that doesn't offend you so much.

And while you're at it, cry me a river! It's hot and I don't have a pool to swim in. ;)

Achtung Bubba 07-30-2002 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Like someone to blame
Wow, the preponderance of lies, out-of-context quotes, and pissing and moaning from the likes of z edge and Bubba is immature and quite entertaining. For the record: Bubba and z edge dislike me because I refuse to take their conservative philosophies and theories as gospel. Specifically, they dislike me because they somehow think that if I want to express an opinion contrary to their conservative beliefs than it is somehow hateful, disengenuous, and personal.
If that were true, I'd have these problems with every liberal in this forum. As it is, I only have serious problems with you, melon, and chain - and my problems with these people extend beyond what is said to HOW it is said.

For example, you could have EASILY caused this to end if you would simply answer whether you were being sarcastic. You continue to evade the question.

THAT's disingenuous.

Quote:

Bubba has relentlessly been attempting to spin the whole "conservatives want to destroy the environment" thing as if I was the member who initiated such talk when in fact it has been established that it was HE who made the remark first...I simply repeated his words (which he repeatedly/conveniently FORGETS to bring up).
Funny, I actually DID give my original quote before giving your response. You would know this if A) you actually read what I wrote and B) you weren't on auto-pilot, saying the same thing regardless of what I say.

Quote:

Secondly, now he thinks that because I and a few other members SUGGEST that it is POSSIBLE (those were my words) that the Bush administration had prior knowledge/involvement in 9/11 that we are somehow guilty of promoting GENOCIDE similar to the plight of the Jews during the Hitler years on this board. Laughable, really. My suggesting that 9/11 MAY have had Bush admin knowledge is admittedly remote and certainly not a theory that will get one widespread support in this country, yet I do believe it is, at the very least, POSSIBLE given the information that exists out there. But you see, Bubba and z edge don't like this SUGGESTION so they therefore try to spin this as if I and others are promoting hate and genocide-which any sane individual here realizes is NOT what we have done. We simply floated an idea/theory contrary to theirs and in true conservative fashion they are trying to suppress our (my) right to free speech and make US out to be the "bad guys."
First, you mention here that it's "POSSIBLE given the information that exists out there." Do you EVER provide any information to back up your suggestion. NO, you don't - something that further distinguishes you from KingPin.

And I have been saying that making such claims is fine if you back up what you say: I'm not trying to suppress free speech altogether, just make it difficult to make these empty, offensive accusations WITHOUT proof. Again, you would know THIS if you had been reading what I write.

Second, whether or not you believe that Bush's involvement in 9/11 is definitive or simply "possible," it confirms that you believe this guy and his party are capable of unbelievably evil acts. It makes me wonder whether you were being genuine in suggesting that Republicans want to starve the young, etc.

(Of course, I CONTINUE to wonder, because you CONTINUE to evade the question of whether you were being sarcastic.)

Quote:

I'm really not sure what Bubba believes is so overwhelmingly hateful about me stating that I believe Republicans are more "nasty and hypocritical" than Democrats. That is simply my view of the two parties and their operatives...extremely hateful, isn't it? (sarcasm implied for those who need assistance deciphering such comments.)
There's nothing extremely hateful in that; I was simply explaining what led me to remind this forum that, in 94-95, Democrats accused Republican congressmen of wanting to the kill the elderly, etc:

1) You asserted that Republicans are the more nasty of the two parties.

2) I reminded you of the DEMOCRAT accusation of Republicans wanting to kill the elderly, etc.

3) Unbelievably, you AGREED with the accusation.

Quote:

Bubba, you really need to move on with your life and get over this crusade you have with slandering me, quoting me out of context, putting your "spin" on all my posts, and trying to portray me as some unpatriotic, hatemonger. Shame on you for your public crusade against me, shame on you for trying to control the terms of every debate, shame on you for driving a wedge amongst forum members. I'm afraid that this discussion forum is ruining your health and consumming you...I hope that is not the case.
And shame on you for not answering whether you were being sarcastic.

Quote:

I honestly find much of Bubba's and z edges rants amusing...I really do laugh quite frequently at your outlandish remarks whose only purpose is to suppress the views/thoughts of those who disagree with you. So WHAT if I believe Republicans are "nasty", so WHAT if I believe they want to "destroy the environment", so WHAT if I believe our government isn't blameless for 9/11,...so WHAT??? At the end of the day it IS JUST SOMEONE'S OPINION!!!
And my assertion that you DO think Republicans are evil, and that you are an intellectual coward for not owning up to your accusations are "JUST SOMEONE'S OPINION!!!" and YOU seem to get to pretty offended at THAT.

Fact is, there are and should be opinions that should not be expressed - or that MUST be backed up with proof.

Otherwise, what's stopping me from, for example, suggesting that you have a penchant for sexual relations with the dead? Nothing.

Quote:

The stuff most conservatives float here is GARGAGE in my opinion...yet it hardly affects my personal (real world) life. I don't talk about it at the dinner table with my wife...I don't talk about it at church...or the office...it doesn't consume my every thought...I don't get angry for long periods of time...what DOES consume me is God, my beautiful wife, my family, U2's music and message, the Boston Red Sox, The Dallas Cowboys, whitewater rafting, work, politics, and way down on the list...what some conservative forum member may have said in this discussion forum...because at the END OF MY DAY...I really don't care-it's that simple.
Good for you: you're still evading my question.

Quote:

For the record: I have no alter-I don't need to hide behind one. When I've got something to say I say it. I find the alter thing a bit obsessive and dishonest. I mean, take any thread you like here in this particular forum. Let's say I start it with a liberal view. Next thing you know you've got responses floating conservative views from three different "members"...yet they are actually the same views from the SAME member. Why does one do this? Well, I think it is a possible attempt in THEIR mind to even the playing field, possibly, with the liberal members here since they somehow seem to think they (the conservatives) are outnumbered. Secondly, I think it is a means by which they can post hit and run, largely personally degrading attacks, without having to stand up to them. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
I agree that the use of alters is dishonest. Truthfully, I find it cowardly.

But there's a simple reason conservatives think we're outnumbered: we are.

And posting hit-and-runs under an alter is bad, but so doing so under your original name. I believe you're guilty of the very same act when you refuse to give evidence to back up your claims.

Quote:

It is my belief that what has transpired over the last few weeks here in cyberspace is purely a reflection of today's politcal climate in the real world, i.e. Republican attack dogs spinning stories and quoting out of context to further their extreme agenda and suppress the opposing view. I'm just trying to provide some balance, expose their tactics, and educate those who are impartial. Bubba has called me, (amongst other things) an "intellectual coward", which is very entertaining. For the record (again) I have point-counterpointed Bubba on EVERY issue/challenge he has thrown my way, from the Laugher curve on down the line (any impartial observer would draw this conclusion).
You've countered ALMOST everything. You still avoid the issue of whether you were being sarcastic; I believe the label of intellectual coward fits.


Quote:

So why would he make such a statement? Answer: It's just what Republicans in this country do when they are on the defensive...they sling mud....twist facts...and attack their opponent to shift the focus away from the actual debate at hand. You see, Bubba, if you want to play fair than I will...but I won't sit back and let you disparage my good name here in your dilusional attempt to silence my progressive voice.
Oh, YES, WE REPUBLICANS are mud slinging. Never mind the fact that YOU DID suggest the accusation that we want to kill the elderly IS TRUE. Never mind the fact that you suspect Bush of allowing 9/11 to occur for the sake of oil interests.

And never mind that an "actual debate at hand" involved yet another attempt to show that Bush is an imbecile, thanks to a verbal misstep on Bush's part - a DEBATE YOU PERSONALLY STARTED.

Quote:

To those who have been following Bubba's relentless demand (for Bubba doesn't "request" anything here) for me to a)explain whether my reply to HIS statement about Republicans wanting to destroy the environment, starve children, and kill the elderly and b)cite examples of this I say: what purpose would this serve? For IF I believe HIS statement and IF I bring forth examples it will only serve to fuel Bubba's ego, increase his blood pressure, and, in true Bubba fashion, he would arbitrarily REJECT my examples as nonsense and "cowardness". So really, NOTHING could be gained from such an exercise EXCEPT to further fuel Bubba's attacks against me and provide him with the satisfaction that his "demand" was met...which I will not do...because I'm not here to satisfy Bubba's demands. If I'm a "coward" for that in Bubba's mind than so be it...it won't affect any aspect of my life.
I appreciate the fact that my requests have not gone completely unnoticed.

But, ONCE AGAIN, you refuse to answer the simple question of whether you were being sarcastic, a question that I think deserves an answer.

Quote:

I have not used profanity here nor (I believe) broken any rules of the Interference agreement while posting in this forum. It is for this reason that I believe the moderators have disregarded Bubba's demand to enforce some sort of actions against me and realize, from the examples offered by Kinpin and others, that I have NOT lobbed hateful remarks at Bubba or z edge.
Other than the suggestions that Republicans want to kill the elderly and wanted 9/11 to happen for the sake of "big oil."

Quote:

These pleas to the moderators for some sort of action is perplexing when all I've done is offered opinions that a few outspoken forum members don't agree with.
That's right, that's ALL you've offered - certainly no evidence to back up your hateful opinions.

Quote:

I believe the moderators understand this and see how some here are spinning my words in an blatant attempt to not only portray me as hatemonger but in the larger attempt to silence me in this forum. Furthermore, I think they see the overall RIDICULOUSNESS of Bubba's problems with me and Kingpin. Disclaimer: I'm not trying to speak for any of the moderators here-just making my own observations.

Finally, I resent the fact that Bubba and, to a lesser extent z edge, aka Love Muscle, aka Spyplane, have ganged up on me here in an obvious attempt to control the terms of the debate by relentlessly making a distorted, hyperbole laced argument that I am somehow insulting them because I don't agree with their conservative beliefs. Too bad. You don't agree with MY progressive beliefs and you don't see ME pissing and moaning all over the forum about it. As Bono says in "Bad" ...'let it go'. When you are ready to engage in constructive debate and are done publicly smearing and railroading me, than I'm ready...but I'm not holding my breath.

You're ready, or so you claim, and yet you are completely unwilling to acknowledge how utterly offensive your accusations have been - and you have been completely unwilling to answer whether or not you were being sarcastic.

"I was being sarcastic."

"I was being genuine."

NEITHER of these statements are to much to expect.

Sicy 07-30-2002 01:40 PM

Bah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Achtung Bubba 07-30-2002 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Like someone to blame
First of all...STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT APPEAR AS IF I WAS THE ONE WHO MADE THE ABOVE ACCUSATION...IT WAS Y-O-U and if you are so interested in seeing the mods response than make the accusation again and see what happens.
I did not MAKE THE ACCUSATION. I presented - and backed up with evidence - the fact that Democrats have made the accusation. YOU first made the accusation, by suggesting that it's ACTUALLY the case.

BIG difference, something that intelligent people ought to be able to see.

Quote:

Egregious claims??? A HUGE stretch of one's imagination I would say and hardly a "pretty serious accusation" as you promote, which probably explains why the moderators have ignored your demands for action. If this was such a "serious" accusation than I guess all members of Congress on both sides of the aisle should be spanked or locked up...for this stuff is floated daily in both chambers, in particular when committee's are in session. I think you will find many people in this country who do in fact believe that Republican policies hurt the environment, harm the elderly etc etc. Hardly an accusation, really, in their minds. Why you are so upset about the statement that YOU originally made is baffling, when it does nothing to attack you personally or your character. True, by saying that Republicans want to destroy the environment etc it lumps ALL Republicans into that category...but rational folk are able to comprehend that a comment such as that doesn't correspond to THEM, the individual. Republicans always accuse the Democrats of trying to ruin the economy with high taxes and big goverment...maybe I should ask to have YOUR views on the economy suppressed here because that is such a wild accusation (imo) that it hurts my feelings?????? See the sheer nonsense of your argument?
Interesting here how you explain how reasonable the accusation really is. A while back, KingPin said that "Anybody who does (accuse the Republicans of mass murder) is clearly ridiculous." You supported KingPin absolutely, saying that "he said it perfectly."

NOW, it's a perfectly reasonable accusation. Interesting.

It demonstrates, I believe, that maybe you weren't being sarcastic after all.

Either way I don't believe Republicans accuse the Democrats of actually trying to ruin the economy. We believe that Democrat policies WILL HURT the economy, but we don't suggest that that was the intended goal. We believe that Democrats use a poor economy to their political advantage, but that doesn't mean they support policies for the PURPOSE of making the economy worse.

I believe that Democrats honestly believe their economic policies ARE effective, that they don't harm the economy. I HONESTLY don't think that they PLAN to ruin the economy.

It's a case of having incorrect theories rather than evil intentions - a FAR cry from suggesting Republicans WANT to destroy the environment, that they won't be happy until the environment is in ruins.

THAT'S the difference.

Achtung Bubba 07-30-2002 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sicy
Bah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
So you ARE here.

ANY possibility you could answer my question?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that some other liberal on this forum genuinely accuses Republicans of WANTING to kill/harm the elderly, starve children, and destroy the environment (or something equally heinous) - and does so with no substantial proof.

How would the moderators respond?


I think it's becoming perfectly clear how you guys would respond, but I would like an explicit answer.

pinkfloyd 07-30-2002 01:52 PM

Gonna Fall out the window , true lie
You took my only true life
You feel my heart is going right
Shouldn't be down in the hold right
I think you're gonna shine on bright
shine bright , Love !!!!


https://usuarios.lycos.es/poplemonatu...xicopics/2.jpg :lol: :lol:

Sicy 07-30-2002 02:12 PM

Bubba my head hurts from reading these essays.

Can you just drop it.

Achtung Bubba 07-30-2002 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sicy
Bubba my head hurts from reading these essays.

Can you just drop it.

That's it. I'm outta here.

z edge has one of my email addresses. If any forum member wants to reach me, you can do so through him.

Mods and admins, you also have an email address of mine. If any of you have anything else to say to me, you know how to reach me.

I've enjoyed many of the discussions here. I hope my occasional thought about U2, and culture in general, has been entertaining. I hope I have been helpful in explaining Christianity and conservatism - that anyone who is still curious about either will keep an open mind and continue his or her investigations.

I would like to thank z edge, Diamond, Bama and the other conservatives (you know who you are) for demonstrating wit and fortitude in continuing to defend our shared beliefs. I believe we ARE right. I wish you luck in your continued efforts, and I would understand if you too found this forum too frustrating.

It's perfectly clear that my political beliefs are not welcome here.

I will no longer waste my time here.

I'm gone. I'm not coming down.


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