U2 Feedback

U2 Feedback (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/)
-   Free Your Mind Archive (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/)
-   -   Anybody else have a moral problem with pirated software? (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/anybody-else-have-a-moral-problem-with-pirated-software-58457.html)

martha 06-17-2002 10:24 PM

Anybody else have a moral problem with pirated software?
 
'Cause I do. I called this Mac consultant because I've been wanting to really get into my computer. I know that it can do so much more than write a term paper or post on Interference. And, this past week, my Netscape crapped out on me. I can't easily access my email, and I can't easily get to a lot of my bookmarks. It's a pain in the ass to switch everything over to IE. The story is longer, but you don't care. ANYWAY, I called this guy, and he starts telling me what he can do for me, and how much it costs, and I'm cool with everything, and then he starts telling me about the upgrades and other programs he provides on a cd for cheap. And I'm thinking hmmm...something doesn't sound right. So I ask him if he's got licenses for all these. Why no, but it's a "service" he offers. He "respects people who have a moral problem" with "this kind of thing," never saying the words "pirated software." Then goes on to tell me that he only mentioned it because so many people want it. He didn't actually say the words "everyone else is doing it," but it was the same effect.

I have a problem with this!!! Now, I've decided to not "buy" the software he's selling, but I think his whole two hour minimum is based on installing this shit. Plus, I don't think I want to do business with a guy that is so willing to steal.

I guess I've decided, so thanks for listening.

OzAurora 06-17-2002 11:07 PM

I have absolutely no problem with using pirated software and do not think of it as being a form of 'stealing', if you were to steal from the poor, ok then this is stealing but to use software that is so easily pirated from a company who are worth millions, more fool them I think.....Now when I was a university student studying graphic design we used all of the Adobe software like Illustrator and Photoshop and if I had gone out and bought the legit software it would of cost me literaly thousands of dollars, which was simply money that I would never have had as I was a poor student.....now I respect that I was probably 'stealing' the people who designed these programs intellectual property, but hey why the heck do they have to make these programs so bloody expensive? If I could afford to buy legit copies I would, but I will never have the money to justify spending a thousand dollars for a graphics program that I can get for free off a friend,,,,anyway my .02 cents:)

Zooropa 06-18-2002 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OzAurora
I have absolutely no problem with using pirated software and do not think of it as being a form of 'stealing', if you were to steal from the poor, ok then this is stealing but to use software that is so easily pirated from a company who are worth millions, more fool them I think.....Now when I was a university student studying graphic design we used all of the Adobe software like Illustrator and Photoshop and if I had gone out and bought the legit software it would of cost me literaly thousands of dollars, which was simply money that I would never have had as I was a poor student.....now I respect that I was probably 'stealing' the people who designed these programs intellectual property, but hey why the heck do they have to make these programs so bloody expensive? If I could afford to buy legit copies I would, but I will never have the money to justify spending a thousand dollars for a graphics program that I can get for free off a friend,,,,anyway my .02 cents:)
I completely agree!!!

elevatedmole 06-18-2002 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OzAurora
I have absolutely no problem with using pirated software and do not think of it as being a form of 'stealing', if you were to steal from the poor, ok then this is stealing but to use software that is so easily pirated from a company who are worth millions, more fool them I think.....Now when I was a university student studying graphic design we used all of the Adobe software like Illustrator and Photoshop and if I had gone out and bought the legit software it would of cost me literaly thousands of dollars, which was simply money that I would never have had as I was a poor student.....now I respect that I was probably 'stealing' the people who designed these programs intellectual property, but hey why the heck do they have to make these programs so bloody expensive? If I could afford to buy legit copies I would, but I will never have the money to justify spending a thousand dollars for a graphics program that I can get for free off a friend,,,,anyway my .02 cents:)
I do the exact same thing.

In the case of my (current) graphics program, I got it from my father's company who was upgrading to Adobe 6.0, and they were throwing out their Adobe 5.5, so why not use it? :p Before I got Adobe, I used cracks I downloaded to use trial-only programs for as long as I wanted, and it worked great.

In most cases, if I have the money or I think it is REALLY worth it, I'll buy it, but I pretty much don't buy pirated software or bootlegs.

Popmartijn 06-18-2002 02:04 AM

I'm planning to migrate my system to Linux (well, after I've finished my final thesis, which will be at the end of this year if it goes in the same tempo), so I will not have these piracy concerns again. Why not? Well, almost everything on Linux is free (as in beer)!

But regarding software piracy, I have a dual feeling about it. No, it's not right to just copy a program without paying for it (and if the BSA (Business Software Alliance) finds out about it you'll have to pay a huge fine above the licensing costs). But... the EULA's (End User License Agreement) of many software applications are so ridiculous. If you ever have much time on your hands, try to read them. Basically, the license says that you cannot do anything with the program (only install it at one computer, no network use unless you have enough licenses for it, no guarantee or warantee, etc.). And now with Microsoft introducing their new License 6.0 agreement (which basically says that you don't have ownership on the software you bought, you just licensed it for a year, so you have to pay license costs every year (although you do get further updates for free)), I'd say to many software companies "Shove the shit up your ..."

Just my rant :mad:

Marty

Lemonite 06-18-2002 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OzAurora
I have absolutely no problem with using pirated software and do not think of it as being a form of 'stealing', if you were to steal from the poor, ok then this is stealing but to use software that is so easily pirated from a company who are worth millions, .02 cents:)
You know, you always wonder what people's motivations are for various things.. (Tax Increases Come To Mind).. but they never truly say it.. I'm still kinda confused I even read this.. OZ?.. Are you joking us here with this statement?.. But i'm sure it's just me who is disgusted by this statement.

Anyways, On to Pirated software.. I don't sweat popping a disc in that's not mine.. There was a funny story about one of my friends in college.. back when pod racer was big, I tried to get it off him to copy.. I know.. i blew all discretion.. but he wouldn't allow me.. 'Because He will be working for Lucas Arts in teh Future (possibly.. it was like a 1 in 100 chance), and He felt dishonorable in stealing from his own company. So I just said I just wanna play it.. not copy it.. in a correction.. and he gave it to me (To Play and Delete).. Hahahah..

L.Unplugged

martha 06-18-2002 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Popmartijn
And now with Microsoft introducing their new License 6.0 agreement (which basically says that you don't have ownership on the software you bought, you just licensed it for a year, so you have to pay license costs every year (although you do get further updates for free))
Which is why I love my Mac. It allows me to have as little to do with Microsoft as possible. It even bugs me to have to use IE until I get my Netscape to work.

It surprises me that so many people would willingly steal! :ohmy:

Popmartijn 06-18-2002 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by martha


Which is why I love my Mac. It allows me to have as little to do with Microsoft as possible. It even bugs me to have to use IE until I get my Netscape to work.

You can try out Mozilla ( https://www.mozilla.org ). This is a browser on which Netscape has based its browser. They have a Mac version (about a 10 Mb download), so you might give it a chance.

One warning though, do not use an identical profile as the one you use on Netscape.

C ya!

Marty

martha 06-18-2002 09:53 AM

I'm such a big, fat chicken! A roaster, even. I called the guy back to tell him no thanks, and all I said was I've decided to wait, which was part of the problem. I said nothing about the software issue.


Bok. Bok. Bok.
:tsk: :tsk: :tsk:

Squid 06-18-2002 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Popmartijn

I'm planning to migrate my system to Linux

:yes: :yes: :yes:


Quote:

Originally posted by Popmartijn


You can try out Mozilla

:yes: :yes: :yes:

Spiral_Staircase 06-18-2002 02:37 PM

I have a problem with it. It is definitely "stealing." OzAurora, I would say that stealing is not defined by the relative wealth of the person robbed, or the ease of the robbery. If that's what you believe, then when you step off the train in Rome and some kid picks your pocket, you weren't robbed.

sulawesigirl4 06-18-2002 02:43 PM

I'm sure it's wrong. And I still do it. And I don't have a qualm about it. :eek: I will choose to blame it on the culture I grew up in. In Indonesia, there is no such thing as copyright laws...or if there are, they are certainly not enforced. Half the stuff I ever bought there was pirated; you couldn't GET the originals even if you wanted to. So for what it's worth...no, I don't have a problem with it even though I should. Geez, that felt like a zoo confessional. :p

Vorsprung 06-18-2002 02:58 PM

Not a problem at all. I need or want the software but I also need/want the money......oh yes.... I am criminal.
Same goes with music. I'm not gonna pay Euro 22,- for a CD when I can get or compile one for just one Euro. Except one U2 bootleg I haven't bought any cd since ATYCLB, only a little vinyl stuff. Yes, the music industry hates guys like me, and i know it might not be right, but as long as they're saying they're working on strategies to reduce piracy and all I see is just them raising the prices I probably won't take them seriously anyway.

Diogenes 06-18-2002 05:56 PM

MAC = Microsoft Aquired Company
 
Quote:

Originally posted by martha


Which is why I love my Mac. It allows me to have as little to do with Microsoft as possible. It even bugs me to have to use IE until I get my Netscape to work.

It surprises me that so many people would willingly steal! :ohmy:


--note title of reply--


Actually, Mircosoft owns a large, very large, part of Apple computers. But they keep it hush hush because they want to get money from the sales of people who are "screwing Bill Gates". Really funny actually, he's got quite the monopoly going for himself. But I don't blame him, it's not like he's charging outragous prices for his products, and they are quality (for the most part).

As far as pirated software goes.. ya, I do it, you got a problem! :D

melon 06-18-2002 06:00 PM

The entire consumer culture is in shambles. Ever notice how anything worth anything in America requires a bank loan now? Houses...cars...college... And the software industry wonders why no one wants to pay top dollar for software? We don't have money for something so seemingly nonessential. The software industry needs to delinate between corporate consumers, who can afford top dollar and make money using the software, and private consumers, who generally can't afford top dollar and don't profit off of the software anyway.

Melon

brettig 06-18-2002 07:49 PM

What melon said...oh and id also suggest to people, SHOP AROUND as much as you can...Ive been able to find places selling stuff perfectly legally but miles cheaper than anywhere else, little stores with lots of regular customers to keep them going.

new orleans 06-18-2002 09:01 PM

Pirated Software
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Zooropa


I completely agree!!!

I also AGREE!! Feeling guilty over that is a bit much.

U2Bama 06-18-2002 09:14 PM

I agree with Martha and Spiral_Staircase, and I agree with the remedies offered up by Melon and brettig.

Despite what many of you may think, a lot of software out there was researched and developed by individuals whop put a lot of time and effort into it. They created it to sell to you as a service/product. It is THEIR work product, it is not something for you to photocopy. And some of it is made by small, local companies who truly depend on licensed sales for their income.

And another thing about this guy that Martha is dealing with: he offers to pass along theses extras for "cheap;" well, it sounds like he is charging something for pirated software, and that really crosses the line.

Where does this theory come from that stealing is only wrong if the victim is below a certain economic factor? For that matter, if a "wealthy" person or company is burglarized, should they be prohibited from reporting it to the police and filing charges?

I feel the same way about music; sure, I will trade live shows and commercially unavailable recordings for no monetary gain, but this is only for bands who approve of such practices. I will never sell such recordings. When a band puts out a new studio album in the retail sector, you are supposed to go to the music store and buy it if you want it. believe it or not, the artists DO get money off of each unit sold. I agree with Metallica on that whole front (though I do think the "industry" has increased prices too much; $18.98 for a new release is ridiculous- not that that is reason to steal it). Keep in mind that I have written music before and I consider it my artistic product, much as a software programmer should consider his/her software to be his/her work product.

~U2Alabama

Lilly 06-18-2002 09:20 PM

hath ye a moral problem with bootlegs? or burning music cds? same diff imo.

U2Bama 06-18-2002 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lilly
hath ye a moral problem with bootlegs? or burning music cds? same diff imo.
only for bands who approve of such practices.

new orleans 06-18-2002 10:09 PM

cd
 
Quote:

Originally posted by brettig
What melon said...oh and id also suggest to people, SHOP AROUND as much as you can...Ive been able to find places selling stuff perfectly legally but miles cheaper than anywhere else, little stores with lots of regular customers to keep them going.
My words but a whisper your deafness a shout.

martha 06-18-2002 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lilly
hath ye a moral problem with bootlegs? or burning music cds? same diff imo.
Bootlegs are different than pirated stuff. Bootlegs are material which was never intended to be sold in the first place. Pirated stuff is a copy of the item that was sold. I expect to be paid for my work, and I expect to pay others for their work. No, I wouldn't buy a pirated copy of a cd, but I have no qualms about bootlegs.

OzAurora 06-18-2002 11:56 PM

To all of those who have been dissing my initial reply to this thread, well it is all very well for you to have your opinions but let me ask you have you ever borrowed a tape, album or cd from a friend and recorded it???, have you ever taped a television show onto a videotape?? have you ever taped a song from the radio and do you have any mp3s on your computer?????? in my opinion this is all the same to some degree and like I said initially I would have no problem in paying for un-pirated software if it were cheaper, but hell no am I going to pay 500 bucks for office and add to Gates' empire when I can get a copy for free and sorry but I do see a difference in the notion of breaking into ones house and stealing all of their personal belongings compared to using pirated software, these are two very different forms of 'stealing' in my opinion and again just my two cents:)

Achtung Bubba 06-19-2002 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OzAurora
To all of those who have been dissing my initial reply to this thread, well it is all very well for you to have your opinions but let me ask you have you ever borrowed a tape, album or cd from a friend and recorded it???, have you ever taped a television show onto a videotape?? have you ever taped a song from the radio and do you have any mp3s on your computer??????
There is a bit of a difference between what you list here and what happens with Napster and its many clones: in the legal parlance, it's called "fair use." In reality, it comes down to sheer numbers.

Pirated software/music (particularly through file-sharing systems) does not reduce to "letting a friend copy an album" but letting 50,000 friends copy an album. The details matter: it's one thing to let a friend borrow an album (one copy used by several people), another to let a friend copy an album (several copies used by several), and quite another indeed to put the album on a file-sharing system (THOUSANDS of copies used by THOUSANDS).

The first clearly falls under fair use, the second probably does, the third most certainly does not.

In a strict sense, all three cases can be considered stealing, but the first two seem minor by comparison: misdeamenors instead of grand theft. I know of no reasonable individual who will say that the third case is no worse than the first two.

The third case is like buying a pay-per-view event and airing it in a football stadium. Any sensible individual can see it is THEFT.

Quote:

in my opinion this is all the same to some degree and like I said initially I would have no problem in paying for un-pirated software if it were cheaper, but hell no am I going to pay 500 bucks for office and add to Gates' empire when I can get a copy for free and sorry but I do see a difference in the notion of breaking into ones house and stealing all of their personal belongings compared to using pirated software, these are two very different forms of 'stealing' in my opinion and again just my two cents:)
If it were cheaper... if it were cheaper...

You know, if Ferrari's were cheaper, I'd consider buying one. As it is, I can't afford one, so - LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD - I do without.

Frankly, I don't see where the differences between B+E (breaking and entering) and pirating software ACTUALLY matter. They're not two different forms of "stealing" (in quotes). They are two different froms of STEALING, THEFT, BURGALRY - both immoral, and in both cases impermissible.

Of course, you're probably not in the music industry or in the software industry (I AM in software, by the way), so what the fuck do you care? You don't get hurt, so it's not immoral, right?

Lemonite 06-19-2002 07:37 AM

OzAurora... You've just been Bubba'd.

L.Unplugged

kobayashi 06-19-2002 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Of course, you're probably not in the music industry or in the software industry (I AM in software, by the way), so what the fuck do you care? You don't get hurt, so it's not immoral, right?
you are right bubba.

but she is in school. as i'm sure you're aware, but have not considered, school's require you to have certain facilities to carry out your work. though tuition and various fees are paid many schools do not provide such things as specific software, especially off campus to their students.

as i'm sure you're also aware many times the pressures of daily life for a student prevent the individual from spending all their time at school working on said project.

so the student is left with little choice.

it's deeper than the surface bubba. and yes it does suck for everybody. go bug the little kids ripping pc games.

Lemonite 06-19-2002 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi

as i'm sure you're also aware many times the pressures of daily life for a student prevent the individual from spending all their time at school working on said project.


Oh.. The Poor Student.. Many schools provide software on their 'Network' server or even have Computer Clusters for those who cannot afford computers..

Hahahah...
You have now made this thread into the good ol' medical ethics dilemma of the husband breaking into the Pharmacy to steal the drug his Wife needs to live through the night due to the fact that he is unable to pay for it. Sooo.. does that make stealing OK??? I refer you to Leon Mertensotto.

L.Unplugged

pub crawler 06-19-2002 10:01 AM

Must play devil's advocate to the "concert bootlegs are okay by me" people.

Why do you suppose it is that tapers feel the need to sneak their equipment into shows, even shows by bands that are reportedly/allegedly "bootleg friendly," such as U2?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that the shared file issue is probably not as clear cut as we'd like to believe.

kobayashi 06-19-2002 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemonite


Oh.. The Poor Student.. Many schools provide software on their 'Network' server or even have Computer Clusters for those who cannot afford computers..

Hahahah...
You have now made this thread into the good ol' medical ethics dilemma of the husband breaking into the Pharmacy to steal the drug his Wife needs to live through the night due to the fact that he is unable to pay for it. Sooo.. does that make stealing OK??? I refer you to Leon Mertensotto.

L.Unplugged

i think you missed the point L. yes the schools provide software on their 'Network' as you call it but this is not accessible off campus of course because the logistics of that many licenses being issued are unfathomable. if i wanted to use SPSS 10.1 i would have to go to school but my father bought me a genuine copy and i also use it every day at work. i am lucky.

i never implied that any of this made stealing ok. the point is that in some cases the person doing the 'stealing' is under undue pressure also and everyone does what they need to do. if you can't afford the software are you going to perform poorly or facilitate a good mark?

Lemonite 06-19-2002 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi


i think you missed the point L. yes the schools provide software on their 'Network' as you call it but this is not accessible off campus of course because the logistics of that many licenses being issued are unfathomable.


Yes.. my statement does not apply to people out of school.. On Campus or Off Campus you can get into most Software Reservoirs that Schools have with just your student ID and password from any internet connection wherever one may be located.. Hence my ability to check my ND.Edu Email address even though I'm not "On Campus" anymores.. but this is just clarification maybe.. If it's irrelevant, then just ignore..

L.Unplugged

kobayashi 06-19-2002 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemonite


Yes.. my statement does not apply to people out of school.. On Campus or Off Campus you can get into most Software Reservoirs that Schools have with just your student ID and password from any internet connection wherever one may be located.. Hence my ability to check my ND.Edu Email address even though I'm not "On Campus" anymores.. but this is just clarification maybe.. If it's irrelevant, then just ignore..

L.Unplugged

certainly email applications are facilitated off campus but i've never heard of something like photoshop or spss being made available to students on an off campus basis. but i don't think ozaurora was referring to something so simplistic as email.

Lemonite 06-19-2002 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi


certainly email applications are facilitated off campus but i've never heard of something like photoshop or spss being made available to students on an off campus basis. but i don't think ozaurora was referring to something so simplistic as email.

I don't know what Spss is.. And maybe this is not the norm.. but With a Student ID and Password (Being a Student) I am able to download from the Unversity things such as Virus Software (Norton.. MacAfee), PhotoShop, MS Office, Various Engineering Programs.. MatLab or whatever the hell else those guys use, and all kinds of other shit.. On Campus (Connected directly to the School Wide Network) or Off Campus (Just through any Internet Connection) It does not matter.. but apparently this may be an anomoly in regards to Universities..

L.Unplugged

kobayashi 06-19-2002 11:26 AM

wow. that is impressive. in my experience, such access is unheard of. perhaps the presence of larry lessig at harvard has persuaded the school to liberate its resources.
do you have any idea regarding the particulars of how such a deal was worked out.

Lemonite 06-19-2002 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi
wow. that is impressive. in my experience, such access is unheard of. perhaps the presence of larry lessig at harvard has persuaded the school to liberate its resources.
do you have any idea regarding the particulars of how such a deal was worked out.

Harvard?... I went to Notre Dame.

They tout themselves as having the most technologically advanced and wired Campus and Network in the country.. God Knows they have the money for it.

L.Unplugged

Achtung Bubba 06-19-2002 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi
but she is in school. as i'm sure you're aware, but have not considered, school's require you to have certain facilities to carry out your work. though tuition and various fees are paid many schools do not provide such things as specific software, especially off campus to their students.

as i'm sure you're also aware many times the pressures of daily life for a student prevent the individual from spending all their time at school working on said project.

so the student is left with little choice.

Fact is, many of the more important software packages are offered at what are called "educational prices," designed to help both students and faculty to buy their products at lower prices, given that they're used for educational purposes.

For example, Microsoft Office XP Professional normally costs around $580. It's "academic price"? $200.

Further, keep in mind that this is for the full Office XP Pro suite, including Word, Excel, Outlook, Powerpoint, AND Access.

Honestly, most college kids ONLY need Word. But let's assume that the student's in grad school (requiring him to make quite a few presentations) AND studying finance (requiring spreadsheet software). Even then, we're talking about three programs:

Word, Powerpoint, and Excel.

Throw in Outlook, and you basically have MS Office 2000 Standard. IT'S academic price is $150.

(I've had to buy more than $150 in books for a single semester before - and that's WITH me looking for good prices on used books.)

That still sounds like a LOT, and it - frankly - it is. But we're also talking about someone who owns a personal computer. A PC owner can probably save up that kind of money fairly easily.

If they can't (which I believe is a wild assumption), most departments offer on-campus labs that include ALL the software you need to do any academic work.

But let's assume the improbable worst:

Let's assume someone must do his academic work at home; he lives so far from campus that he can't regularly work at the labs. We're assuming this person can afford school, books, the commute to at least attend classes, and a personal computer. Unbelievably, this same person can't afford to buy the software he actually needs to do his work.

I think this is a rare case indeed, but would stealing the software at that point be justified? Possibly. Is it still theft? DEFINITELY.

kobayashi 06-19-2002 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemonite


Harvard?... I went to Notre Dame.

apologies. i am confused today. i'm getting my 'big' schools of the south mixed up.

kobayashi 06-19-2002 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba

Is it still theft? DEFINITELY.

i know lotsa people who require software that is only located on my campus, live say a half hour away, and need said software at all hours.

i guess it is dependant on a lot of factors, and in my opinion we are both using the word 'assume' a little too much.

Achtung Bubba 06-19-2002 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi


i know lotsa people who require software that is only located on my campus, live say a half hour away, and need said software at all hours.

i guess it is dependant on a lot of factors, and in my opinion we are both using the word 'assume' a little too much.

And are these people - people who apparently can afford college, books, the 30-minute commute, AND a personal computer - still too destitute to afford the academic prices of the software they need?

It's an argument that is, frankly, hard to swallow in the general case. At the very least, I think those circumstances are so freaking rare that they simply do not justify most cases of piracy.

kobayashi 06-19-2002 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


And are these people - people who apparently can afford college, books, the 30-minute commute, AND a personal computer - still too destitute to afford the academic prices of the software they need?

It's an argument that is, frankly, hard to swallow in the general case. At the very least, I think those circumstances are so freaking rare that they simply do not justify most cases of piracy.

consider many students are riding a $6500 student loan(the maximum bank student loan in the nation, gov student loans are horribly inept and scholarships are unfortunately rare), maybe a couple of grand from parents, and 4 or 5 grand from your own summer work. that's 12 500 - 13 500 which is now the estimated cost by most of a year at school, excluding software licenses.

this is the situation many canadian students are in and there is very little money left to be flexible with such expenses as software licenses. when i say half hour i mean walk or public transit, i don't mean daddies lexus all the way to school.

in any case i fear we are being far too particular for it to matter. my only point was that in many cases the students are also considerably leaned on.

Popmartijn 06-19-2002 03:12 PM

Hello,

I think I stated my opinion already earlier on on pirated software. As such, I try to avoid pirate copies on my computer. Instead, when I need some software, I look for programs that are free by nature.

For all of you who have an illegal copy of MS Office, there is a free (as in beer) office suite out since a month or so: OpenOffice.org. You can find it at (surprise!) https://www.openoffice.org
The suite has a word processor, a spreadsheet program, presentation designer and a light graphic application and is fully compatible with the Microsoft document formats (.doc, .xls, .pps). As said, it is free, but it is a 50 Mb download or so. The application is available for different platforms (currently Windows, Linux and Solaris with a Mac OS X build coming soon) and in many different languages.
(I have to say though that I haven't installed it yet on my computer, I first want to finish my thesis before I go meddling with a different word processor).

Another popular application is WinZip (for compressing files). IIRC this program is shareware, but I think many use it constantly without registering (and paying) it. A very good alternative is UltimateZip. This application is freeware and can be found at https://www.ultimatezip.com (duh!). I use it constantly and it is exactly like WinZip (only free).

Using pirated software is often not just a consequence of not wanting to spend money on software, but of not knowing that free (as in beer) alternatives are around.

C ya!

Marty

Achtung Bubba 06-19-2002 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kobayashi
in any case i fear we are being far too particular for it to matter. my only point was that in many cases the students are also considerably leaned on.
We probably ARE being too nit-picky on the subject; either way, I grant that going to school is usually a financially difficult thing to do - requiring aid to pay for tuition (and sometimes books) and often forcing students to "travel cheap," on foot or via public transportation.

That said, I don't believe the situation reduces to something like a VERY poor man - someone who cannot find a job - stealing bread to feed his family.

First of all, software theft presumes HARDWARE. In most cases, the ones who steal software already own personal computers, and it should not be surprising that the claims of personal poverty generally fall on deaf ears.

Second, it is typically driven by convenience rather than actual need: yes, it may be quite inconvenient and fairly difficult to walk to campus to do all your work, but it is NOT some sort of Herculean feat. Students are already expected to do the inconvenient tasks of getting to classes, keeping up with readings, and finishing assignments - and difficulty doesn't exonerate them from doing the work.

(Just as a difficult project doesn't justify cheating, a long commute doesn't justify immoral shortcuts: stealing someone else's bike would make the commute faster, just as stealing someone else's software may make the trip unnecessary. But neither act is justified.)

Third, buying specialized equipment is often assumed. When you study to become an architect, it is presumed that you will buy the drawing tools; a physics major will buy a graphing calculator and the huge reference manual; a music major presumably buys his musical instrument. A graphics student SHOULD expect to invest in the appropriate software - and is expected to do so legally, just as a music major should not steal someone else's flute.

Finally, we are talking about a college student, one who is presumably talented enough to get a job. Of course, students often face heavy demands on their time, but if a student is expected to buy something he cannot afford, there is nothing wrong in further expecting him to earn the necessary cash rather than stealing.

Everything you've mentioned... school costs, commuting difficulties... they're all excuses. They simply do not justify theft.

Let's look at a different scenario: let's say that the same busy, poor student doesn't "need" just the software package for his computer, but lacks BOTH the computer and the software.

It is, I hope, CLEARLY wrong for him to steal the computer, either from a roommate, someone down the hall, or even a Wal-Mart - some megacorporation who can afford the loss.

(If you don't see the clear immorality of the act, particularly if it's stealing from Wal-Mart, I remind you that it is property rights, including rights of the wealthy, that allows our system of capitalism to work so well. You might also want to keep in mind that you're not only hurting a corporation and its stockbrokers, but also its minimum wage employees - including one who may get fired over a missing computer. And, in the end, most moral codes make no distinction about who is robbed: "Thou shalt not steal," NOT "Thou shalt only steal from those who have more than you.")

If it's wrong to steal the computer, why is it okay to steal the software?

The ONLY difference is that you're making a copy: the orignal, rightful owner isn't missing his orginal software packwage. But copyright laws rightfully assert that it is immoral and illegal to copy sheet music or a published book. I believe that the law extends to digitally encoded music and software - that the ONLY difference between stealing hardware and software is an irrelevant difference.

Still theft. Still immoral.

KevM 06-19-2002 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba



It is, I hope, CLEARLY wrong for him to steal the computer, either from a roommate, someone down the hall, or even a Wal-Mart - some megacorporation who can afford the loss.


What if his room mate allows him to use his(the roommate's) computer is this immoral? No. I don't think so.

What if his room mate allows him to use his(the roommate's) software on his own computer is this immoral?


Stealing physical objects is different from copying software sure there are some seminaries (getting something for free) but in the case of copying software the loss to the owner (the software publisher) is much less tangible.

So in some cases I have no problem copying software. What I do have a problem with is paying for copied software, then someone is profiting from someone elseís work.

Achtung Bubba 06-19-2002 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KevM


What if his room mate allows him to use his(the roommate's) computer is this immoral? No. I don't think so.

What if his room mate allows him to use his(the roommate's) software on his own computer is this immoral?


Stealing physical objects is different from copying software sure there are some seminaries (getting something for free) but in the case of copying software the loss to the owner (the software publisher) is much less tangible.

So in some cases I have no problem copying software. What I do have a problem with is paying for copied software, then someone is profiting from someone elseís work.

A roommate allowing use of his computer is neither stealing nor immoral - and only legal wankers at Microsoft (license agreements, etc.) would suggest otherwise.

But the difference between that and a roommate letting you use his software on your machine is, I think, pretty clear: instead of two people time-sharing one copy, two copies of the same software can be used SIMULTANEOUSLY. For that reason, I believe that the second case - when it comes down to brass tacks - is actually immoral, even if it is still legal under the concept of "fair use."

(It shouldn't seem strange that an immoral act can be legal. After all, most "little white lies" are legal, unless you're advertising, agreeing to a contract, or taking an oath. And, in many parts of the world, sex outside of marriage is legal - though I still think the act immoral.)

That aside, certainly, the owner's loss through copying is less tangible. You can't find an indication of forced entry into a store or warehouse, and an inventory doesn't reveal any missing goods. Further, the distribution of a thousand illegal copies doesn't mean that the owner lost 1,000 customers; of those who stole, some would have bought the item, others would not - the owner probably lost as customers a significant fraction of that 1,000.

But does this intangibility make the act LESS immoral?

Let me again mention music publishing and book publishing. Let's say Mr. X makes a living writing sheet music (and for many such writers, it's not much of a living). He writes and sells the sheet music for money - and he estimates being able to sell 2,000 copies at $4 each: $8,000. Let's say that somebody then buys one copy, makes 1,000 copies of it, and sells each copy for 50 cents (making $5,000 with very little work - and NO creativity - involved). Let's be generous and assume that only half of those copies were bought by lost customers. Mr. X. then only sells 1,500 copies and makes $6,000. He makes $2,000 less than he would have.

I ask: how is that not stealing?

And let's say that the little theif doesn't sell the work, but gives it away. Mr. X. STILL loses around $2,000.

Again, I ask. How's that NOT stealing?


What's amusing in all this is that the arguments against my position seem to be little more than excuses: "I'm not very rich, and the software just costs too much. Besides, the losses are intangible, and Microsoft can afford the losses anyway."

There's a sense that everyone KNOWS this behavior is wrong, and that they're just trying to come up with scenarios in which their particular behavior is excused.

And what flimsy scenarios, too. This isn't the case of Jean Valjean stealing bread because he's hungry, or of Oskar Schindler lying to protect human lives from the barbarism of genocide.

This is the case of a few thousand people - most of them middle-class or richer, all of them rich enough to afford personal computers - stealing from others out of personal convenience.

There are no excuses.

kobayashi 06-19-2002 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Still theft. Still immoral.
agreed. but again i have never made an attempt at justifying the actions of any person using unlicensed software. i have only attempted to point out the mitigating factors which might surround such use, of which we appear to have reached some consensus. i too am closely related to matters of intellectual property as a student of university, employment as policy analyst for a government scientific granting agency and having done some of my own freelance in the past and present.

personally i find it hard to place the blame on a person outright, without looking at the situational factors surrounding the incident. but that is a whole other matter of opinion:)

OzAurora 06-19-2002 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba



Of course, you're probably not in the music industry or in the software industry (I AM in software, by the way), so what the fuck do you care? You don't get hurt, so it's not immoral, right?


This quote really made me quite angry- you dont know me Bubba, you dont know what kind of person I am, what I do and what my personal morals are and to make a statement like that, well to me that just proves how insensitive you really are. I am in the music industry- I write and perform songs and play in a band here on the Sunshine Coast, but I really dont have to and am not going to spend the time justifying myself or my actions to someone as naieve as you.

I can accept that you have different opinions to me, we obviously live in very, very different worlds but I would not criticise you personally for your opinions and make assumptions on your character, without even knowing you- why dont you learn to think before you say something:mad:

Achtung Bubba 06-19-2002 08:13 PM

I apologize for the comment, noting that it was among the most harsh things I've said here in quite a while.

That said...

Quote:

Originally posted by OzAurora
This quote really made me quite angry- you dont know me Bubba, you dont know what kind of person I am, what I do and what my personal morals are and to make a statement like that, well to me that just proves how insensitive you really are.
Insensitive I may be, but I really don't know what your personal morals are? I QUOTE:

I have absolutely no problem with using pirated software and do not think of it as being a form of 'stealing', if you were to steal from the poor, ok then this is stealing but to use software that is so easily pirated from a company who are worth millions, more fool them I think.....

In other words, you believe that stealing is morally permissible, as long as you steal from the rich.

More fool them, right?

I QUOTE AGAIN:

in my opinion this is all the same to some degree and like I said initially I would have no problem in paying for un-pirated software if it were cheaper, but hell no am I going to pay 500 bucks for office and add to Gates' empire when I can get a copy for free and sorry but I do see a difference in the notion of breaking into ones house and stealing all of their personal belongings compared to using pirated software, these are two very different forms of 'stealing' in my opinion and again just my two cents :)

You seem to believe that stealing is morally permissible as long as you think the item stolen is overpriced - and again, you think it's just fine to steal from the rich (e.g., Gates' empire - despite the fact that Adobe is not even owned by Bill Gates).

So I do know SOMETHING about your morality: you think it's fine to steal expensive things from those who can afford it.


Quote:

I am in the music industry- I write and perform songs and play in a band here on the Sunshine Coast, but I really dont have to and am not going to spend the time justifying myself or my actions to someone as naieve as you.
I apologize for assuming you didn't work in the music industry. I wonder, then, how you would react to someone stealing the music you write - in the form of sheet music or recordings.

If you have no problem with it, great. There are those in the creative world (writers, musicians, and even the ogres in software development) who would like to hold on to their intellectual property rights and use those rights to make a living; please don't get in our way.

And if you DO object to people doing to you what you do to others, I would like to mention that hypocrisy doesn't make theft any less immoral.

Quote:

I can accept that you have different opinions to me, we obviously live in very, very different worlds but I would not criticise you personally for your opinions and make assumptions on your character, without even knowing you- why dont you learn to think before you say something:mad:
You wouldn't criticize me personally? So, what exactly is calling me insensitive and niave? and how are those comments any better than mine?

...and above all that, do you not have ANY response to the actual arguments I've presented?

Bubba

OzAurora 06-19-2002 09:04 PM

I dont know why I am going to do this- ususally I would not waste my time- but you are lucky Bubba as I am having a rather slow day at work and have a lot of time to waste, so ok, here goes,

In reply to this quote:

Quote:

I apologize for assuming you didn't work in the music industry. I wonder, then, how you would react to someone stealing the music you write - in the form of sheet music or recordings.
I would have no problems with someone else singing or using any of my songs, I really do see music (well my music) as something to be shared and admired and part of the way to do this is by using my music- bringing it to a wider audience and appreciating it as I am sure that there are people who can perform my songs heaps better than me and I would be very flattered by this.




Quote:

You seem to believe that stealing is morally permissible as long as you think the item stolen is overpriced - and again, you think it's just fine to steal from the rich (e.g., Gates' empire - despite the fact that Adobe is not even owned by Bill Gates).
In reply to this I do not think that stealing is morally permissable if it is overpriced as I do not see that the 'burnt' software I have as stolen- this notion does not even enter into my head if anybody is wrong it is the companies who can condone such exuberant prices for such software from those who are poor such as I was at the time when I was a student- I was lucky enugh to have my two and a half thousand dollar computer bought for me by my Grandparents, however when one is a student you really do not have any spare money- I have lived out of home since I was 18- therefore always having to pay rent, phone and electricity bills, having to pay for the running of a car, becasue where I live the idea of public transport does not exist and the university was a long way away and then by the time you buy a little bit of food and pay for your expenses at univeristy one would be lucky if they had a spare twenty dollars left over out of there $300 a fortnight they got from the government as a student- so no I dont feel bad that I have a pirated version of Photoshop on my computer which came in handy for me when I was doing graphic design at university- I would love to own a legit copy of the software, but if I was to have waited and saved all of my spare money to do so, well I would still be saving for that piece of software and I hear you say, 'well why didnt you get a part time job'- well if you knew the Sunshine Coast you would realise that everyone wants to live here and as such jobs are so hard to come by and then try and get a job that will work around your uni hours- practically impossible! as the boss can get someone else who is not working or studying and therefore extremely flexible..........so to put all of that into light I do not see what I did was stealing- I know morally that if I could of afforded the proper version I would of got it, however my circumstances did not allow for that and I know that I would not go and break into ones house and steal their belongings, just becase I think that they are rich- this really is being stupid and I am not one who is into doing this all the time- I really am not that interested in computers however at the time I was into graphics and my copy of photoshop enabled me to be able to do my work from home instead of having to fight over a computer at uni.


Quote:

If you have no problem with it, great. There are those in the creative world (writers, musicians, and even the ogres in software development) who would like to hold on to their intellectual property rights and use those rights to make a living; please don't get in our way.
I am not going to stand in your way- that would require to much energy and quite frankly I have better things to do with my time and I think that there will always be companies like who is it, the RIAA who will always champion such causes and fight for what they think is subjectively just!

now I am tired of replying, had enough- see ya!:p

Lemonite 06-19-2002 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OzAurora


I am not going to stand in your way- that would require to much energy and quite frankly I have better things to do with my time

'Better Things to Do'.. Hahaha.. This is Funny... It's just like this huuuge scream synonymous for 'Let me Get the F#ck Out Of Here'....

Mug like's to tack on 'with your dignity'... But I like it simple and leaving a bit up for the people to figure out... for some reason I am thinking he's tearing up at your posts though Oz...

L.Unplugged

martha 06-19-2002 10:00 PM

Bubba, it scares the absolute SHIT out of me when we agree.

OzAurora 06-19-2002 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemonite


for some reason I am thinking he's tearing up at your posts though Oz...

L.Unplugged

hmmmm- go for it I dont care, really, I dont:rolleyes:


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com