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-   -   German court outlaws circumcision for boys (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/german-court-outlaws-circumcision-for-boys-214092.html)

anitram 06-27-2012 12:50 PM

German court outlaws circumcision for boys
 
Interesting finding. Full article: https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...?newsfeed=true

Some details:

Quote:

A judge at a Cologne court said that the circumcision of minors went against a child's interests because it led to a physical alteration of the body, and because people other than the child were determining its religious affiliation.

Religious leaders said the court had stepped into a minefield with its decision, which undermined their religious authority and contravened Germany's constitution.

Ali Demir, chairman of the Religious Community of Islam in Germany, said: "I find the ruling adversarial to the cause of integration and discriminatory against all the parties concerned."

Dieter Graumann, president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, called it "an egregious and insensitive measure" which amounted to "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in religious communities' right of determination".

...

The court weighed up three articles from the basic law: the rights of parents, the freedom of religious practice and the right of the child to physical integrity, before coming to the conclusion that the procedure was not in the interests of the child.

It rejected the defence that circumcision is considered hygienic in many cultures, one of the main reasons it is carried out in the US, Britain and in Germany.

After much deliberation, it concluded that a circumcision, "even when done properly by a doctor with the permission of the parents, should be considered as bodily harm if it is carried out on a boy unable to give his own consent".

It ruled the child's body would be "permanently and irreparably changed", and that this alteration went "against the interests of a child to decide for himself later on to what religion he wishes to belong".
Any thoughts?

I seem to remember there may have been threads in the past about this as I specifically remember melon contributing his thoughts so if it's appropriate to merge, feel free.

Salome 06-27-2012 02:31 PM

since in Europe the tendency to outlaw anything related to Islam, when the law remotely gives reason to do so, seems to become more & more prevalent
it seems to make sense not just to restrict this to one religion and treat every other religion equally

will be interesting to see how this will pan out though
because usually this ends up in people (who wouldn't be able to tell where in their neighbourhood you'd be able to find a church) starting to yell that it'd be outrageous if they'd have to tolerate this

Jive Turkey 06-27-2012 02:37 PM

Tradition and religion are the laziest reasons for doing anything. If it's a violation of personal rights, it doesn't matter if it's a religious tradition. There are plenty of traditions around the world that wouldn't fly in western society

PhilsFan 06-27-2012 03:20 PM

If the Mormons had started circumcising people, they would have never legalized it to begin with. The only reason it's legal is because, like JT said, it's a tradition. Otherwise, the idea of chopping off body parts at birth is insane (and no one be silly enough to bring up the umbilical cord).

Dfit00 06-27-2012 03:25 PM

I support it, don't cut the damn little thing... it's more sexual pleasure for the guy in long run, parent involvement should be limited in this.

Moonlit_Angel 06-27-2012 08:49 PM

I've never understood the point to begin with. And I agree on the whole lack of consent thing. It's a weird practice.

LemonMelon 06-27-2012 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel (Post 7535310)
I've never understood the point to begin with.

It's part of dedicating a child in Judaism. Kind of a big deal, actually. :wink:

I don't really care. This has no relevance to Christians whatsoever, honestly. Pretty sure Paul rails against it at one point.

Moonlit_Angel 06-27-2012 09:26 PM

Oh, yeah, I knew it had to do with the Jewish faith and such, I just don't get how that procedure is supposed to relate to that faith, exactly. But admittedly, I'm not well-versed in Jewish rituals :p.

Liesje 06-27-2012 09:28 PM

I'm torn on this issue but since I haven't had kids yet I haven't had to decide where I stand. In general, I do not see the point in this and I would not do it because I am trying to force religion or tradition on my child. The issue for me/us is that around here, all the guys are circumcised, so having an uncircumcised child would definitely make him "different" (even if it's more natural, or better, or giving him the freedom to chose). Even if in this case the difference is so insignificant and private, I'm sure we can all relate to being different in some way and feeling like we stand out, even if no one else knows. I asked a friend about this because she grew up in Europe and her first husband is European. She is a lot like me in that we don't really see the point of this, but she had her son circumcised because her first husband (his father) was despite being European. I don't remember the whole conversation but it was also something that she took into consideration and gave me some convincing arguments for doing it (for the son to be like his father) despite neither of us giving a shit about religion or tradition. Also I've never had a guy friend, boyfriend, partner say he wished he wasn't circumcised.

So I don't know....but if it got banned here I guess it wouldn't matter to me, then my mind would automatically be made up.

ladyfreckles 06-27-2012 09:31 PM

This is such a tricky topic. I've always viewed it as a human rights issue. Unless it's medically required, I don't think parents should be able to remove a part of their child's body. I get that it's religious and it's a tradition etc etc but a male should be able to decide for himself. I also understand that there is a longer recovery time when you're older, but that's not an excuse to remove a body part without the person's permission.

I honestly don't get how this is a violation of religious freedom. What does religious freedom have to do with removal of a body part without permission? I would never feel comfortable doing that to my own son since it should be his decision and not my own.

INDY500 06-27-2012 09:45 PM

San Francisco: Circumcision Ban and Religious Freedom - TIME

San Francisco tried to ban it last summer.

Quote:

The anticircumcision debate began in April when a group of self-proclaimed "intactivists" — people who believe strongly that infant boys have a right to keep their foreskins intact — submitted enough signatures to put a circumcision ban on the ballot. The intactivists have taken up the language of international human rights: they are fighting, they say, for "genital autonomy" and "male-genital-integrity rights."
"Male-genital-integrity rights"... ya gotta love hippies.

Quote:

One of the referendum's key supporters has written a comic book, Foreskin Man, that portrays a blond, Aryan-looking superhero doing battle with "Monster Mohel." (Mohels are people trained to perform ritual Jewish circumcisions.)
And who doesn't love anti-Semitism?

Irvine511 06-27-2012 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liesje (Post 7535332)
I don't remember the whole conversation but it was also something that she took into consideration and gave me some convincing arguments for doing it (for the son to be like his father) despite neither of us giving a shit about religion or tradition. Also I've never had a guy friend, boyfriend, partner say he wished he wasn't circumcised.



i think this is much more for the father, though. i don't think boys (at least in the West) spend much time (if ever) thinking about whether or not their father is circumcised, and i don't think they'd want to either. and if it did come up, i'm sure it could be easily explained.

it's simply unnecessary. and i believe about half of American boys born today aren't circumcised, so whatever mild social stigma is probably gone.

and those boys with foreskins are likely going to be thankful in the long run.

Liesje 06-27-2012 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7535338)
and i believe about half of American boys born today aren't circumcised, so whatever mild social stigma is probably gone.

I don't doubt it but that is half of American boys as a whole. If you look at the smaller context of the community in which I was raised, live, and work I'd honestly be impressed if you found one, so it's not just the father but the peers as well.

Something I won't do is not do it just because everyone else is. I don't like to make reactive decisions like that. I personally do not see the point, all of the religious, tradition, and cultural context aside so I'm inclined not to do it but it's not up to just me and so far it seems like the men/fathers are still all for it. :huh:

Jive Turkey 06-27-2012 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7535337)



"Male-genital-integrity rights"... ya gotta love hippies.



And who doesn't love anti-Semitism?

What does this have to do with anything? Not that I'm surprised you'd support a tradition because "hey, it's what we do". What were you saying in the other thread about exercising your brain?

And it's amazing that you'd find rights to "Male Genital Integrity" to be so outside your worldview

BVS 06-28-2012 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7535337)

San Francisco tried to ban it last summer.

No, SAN FRANCISCO didn't try and ban it, a small group did. The vote didn't even make it to the ballot.

Maybe Beck didn't tell you that part :shrug:

ladyfreckles 06-28-2012 05:54 AM

I've heard really sad stories from certain rural midwest towns where boys who were in tact were made fun of for being "freaks" when showering for gym. :(

anitram 06-28-2012 08:15 AM

I have had this discussion with my partner because I strongly feel that it's an antiquated, barbaric, and unnecessary practice and I am very much against inflicting it on any sons we may have. Mercifully he agrees so there is really no conflict there.

AchtungBono 06-28-2012 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel (Post 7535331)
Oh, yeah, I knew it had to do with the Jewish faith and such, I just don't get how that procedure is supposed to relate to that faith, exactly. But admittedly, I'm not well-versed in Jewish rituals :p.


There are many important stages in the life of a Jew, beginning with the "Brit Mila" which has its origin in biiblical times and in Hebrew it is called a "Brit Milla" (hence the word "Bris" in Yiddish). It symbolizes the "Brit" (covenant) between a Jew and G-d. Here is some more information:

Brit Milah - The Covenant of Circumcision (Bris)

Jive Turkey 06-28-2012 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

There are many important stages in the life of a Jew, beginning with the "Brit Mila" which has its origin in biiblical times and in Hebrew it is called a "Brit Milla" (hence the word "Bris" in Yiddish). It symbolizes the "Brit" (covenant) between a Jew and G-d. Here is some more information:

Brit Milah - The Covenant of Circumcision (Bris)

There are tribes in Africa that also have important stages in the life of their females

ladyfreckles 06-28-2012 12:22 PM

I always found it odd that the western world is so against female circumcision but so for male circumcision. I don't see a difference.

anitram 06-28-2012 12:27 PM

There is a massive difference if you are talking about female genital mutilation, which causes fistulas, an inability to urinate, death, etc.

What male circumcision could probably properly be compared to is the removal of the clitoral hood (and even then it is very questionable because male circumcision would still result in the vast majority of men being able to experience orgasm while the removal of the clitoral hood would result in the opposite - ie. the vast majority of women would no longer be able to climax).

ETA: There is also some medical science supporting the thesis that male circumcision leads to lower HIV infection rates in countries where hygiene is an issue - italics mine because this last part is often left out. There is no medical reason whatsoever to remove the clitoral hood.

Canadiens1131 06-28-2012 12:38 PM

Kind of silly that God wants you to cut a part of your dick off.

No thanks.

Jive Turkey 06-28-2012 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anitram
There is a massive difference if you are talking about female genital mutilation, which causes fistulas, an inability to urinate, death, etc.

What male circumcision could probably properly be compared to is the removal of the clitoral hood (and even then it is very questionable because male circumcision would still result in the vast majority of men being able to experience orgasm while the removal of the clitoral hood would result in the opposite - ie. the vast majority of women would no longer be able to climax).

ETA: There is also some medical science supporting the thesis that male circumcision leads to lower HIV infection rates in countries where hygiene is an issue - italics mine because this last part is often left out. There is no medical reason whatsoever to remove the clitoral hood.

The point is that it's genital mutilation against one's will. Babies still die from botched circumcision or even more pleasantly, die from herpes transmitted by the mohel.
There's also evidence that the loss in sensitivity of the glans is responsible for at least some instances of erectile dysfunction

ladyfreckles 06-28-2012 03:21 PM

Cutting off a part of your body just to slightly lower the risk of you getting an STD when we live in a world full of condoms is kind of ridiculous.

deep 06-28-2012 03:49 PM

Quote:

Male circumcision is the surgical removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis. Early depictions of circumcision are found in cave paintings and Ancient Egyptian tombs, though some pictures are open to interpretation. Circumcision is often performed for religious reasons. In Judaism, it is considered a commandment from God.
Let's set the record straight,
it is a commandment from God.

Wandering around in the desert all those years, one would encounter a lot of sand storms.
And with loose robes, well, sand is little bitty pieces of glass, that could get quite uncomfortable.

anitram 06-28-2012 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles (Post 7535698)
Cutting off a part of your body just to slightly lower the risk of you getting an STD when we live in a world full of condoms is kind of ridiculous.

It certainly is in North America and Europe and in such places there is no sound medical reason for this.

It gets a bit more grey in African countries where HIV infections did drop (statistically significantly) among circumcised men. Again, this is a function of access to hygiene, but in places where condoms may be unavailable due to remoteness of location, too expensive for someone living on a buck a day, or culturally not accepted and where the HIV is at epidemic levels, there may be some argument for medical merit. As the WHO has advocated, for example.

ladyfreckles 06-28-2012 04:15 PM

You make a valid point, anitram. :up:

Axver 07-02-2012 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liesje (Post 7535347)
I don't doubt it but that is half of American boys as a whole. If you look at the smaller context of the community in which I was raised, live, and work I'd honestly be impressed if you found one, so it's not just the father but the peers as well.

I find this absolutely astonishing. You'd find it extremely difficult to find a circumcised male under the age of about 40 or 45 in Australia and New Zealand. Hell, when a friend of a friend had sex with a circumcised guy, it was a novelty topic of discussion.

Caleb8844 07-02-2012 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axver (Post 7537019)
I find this absolutely astonishing. You'd find it extremely difficult to find a circumcised male under the age of about 40 or 45 in Australia and New Zealand. Hell, when a friend of a friend had sex with a circumcised guy, it was a novelty topic of discussion.

It's funny, cuz where I live, I had the same situation, except it was so interesting because it was an UNcircumcised guy.

financeguy 07-21-2012 09:40 PM

Christopher Hitchens Goes After Rabbi Harold Kushner re: Circumcision - YouTube

Nothing to add.

Irvine511 07-22-2012 12:13 AM

i used to go to the CT Forum in high school. good to see it was continuing. it was fantastic for a teenager to see heavyweights in action like that.

there is no reason for circumcision. none. if i had a child i would not circumcise him. period.

deep 07-28-2012 05:01 PM

Quote:

“For God’s Sake My Penis Was Ruined”
Did I ruin my son's penis? | Sarah Tuttle| The Times of Israel

Steved1998 07-28-2012 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7544222)
i used to go to the CT Forum in high school. good to see it was continuing. it was fantastic for a teenager to see heavyweights in action like that.

there is no reason for circumcision. none. if i had a child i would not circumcise him. period.

I hope your son enjoys the smegma that's going to ooze out of that ugly little wormy looking thing

cobl04 07-28-2012 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511
i used to go to the CT Forum in high school. good to see it was continuing. it was fantastic for a teenager to see heavyweights in action like that.

there is no reason for circumcision. none. if i had a child i would not circumcise him. period.

Many are done for medical reasons.

anitram 07-28-2012 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steved1998 (Post 7547140)
I hope your son enjoys the smegma that's going to ooze out of that ugly little wormy looking thing

We should cut off the labia then too.

Steved1998 07-28-2012 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anitram (Post 7547156)
We should cut off the labia then too.

That's like comparing apples to some fruit nobody ever heard of.

Maybe we should ban abortion? You don't want anyone telling you what to do with your body. Don't tell anyone what to do with mine.

Irvine511 07-29-2012 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steved1998

You don't want anyone telling you what to do with your body. Don't tell anyone what to do with mine.


Millions of baby boys have thought the same thing as their penises were being mutilated.

LemonMelon 07-29-2012 06:17 AM

I find it amusing that Germany of all places made such a distinctly anti-Semitic ruling. They need to get over that shit.

Vincent Vega 07-29-2012 06:41 AM

The kid was Muslim. :p

Anyway, politicians were quick to intervene and now passed a law legalizing circumcision.
It was such a great chance to put an end to the entire conflict in the Middle East, just having Muslims and Jews unite to rail against the insensitive Germans outlawing circumcision of boys, thereby realizing "Goddammit, we are one and the same!"


:wink:

digitize 07-29-2012 07:28 AM

Arabs (though not Persians) are Semitic too, actually.

Steved1998 07-30-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7547227)
Millions of baby boys have thought the same thing as their penises were being mutilated.

You guys are worse than atheists.

LuckyNumber7 07-30-2012 05:05 PM

The notion of banning something like that bothers me in the sense that you're telling someone what they can and cannot do.

At the same time, the parents are telling a future adult what they can and cannot have.


It's almost contradictory, but since I don't believe that parents choose a religion for their kids, neither should they choose a religious practice for them.

Honestly, make it a double Bar Mitzvah at 18 and go have circumcision surgery. The practice of circumcision should not be illegal, that's ridiculous. However, one should have the right to choose for themselves, and not have that decision be made for them.

Irvine511 07-30-2012 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steved1998 (Post 7547831)
You guys are worse than atheists.


i want my son to enjoy having gay sex as much as he can. how can you do that without foreskin?

Jive Turkey 07-30-2012 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steved1998 (Post 7547140)
I hope your son enjoys the smegma that's going to ooze out of that ugly little wormy looking thing

You'd better stay away from vaginas then. They produce more smegma than any penis ever has

Steved1998 07-30-2012 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

You'd better stay away from vaginas then. They produce more smegma than any penis ever has

Not in my experience. You should choose you women more carefully.

LuckyNumber7 07-30-2012 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steved1998 (Post 7547875)
Not in my experience. You should choose you women more carefully.

Psst... it's called personal hygiene. It's disgusting if you don't have it, whether or not there is foreskin involved.

Jive Turkey 07-30-2012 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steved1998 (Post 7547875)
Not in my experience. You should choose you women more carefully.

You should help yourself to a science book

Steved1998 07-30-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

You should help yourself to a science book

The only science book I need is the good book

LuckyNumber7 07-30-2012 08:55 PM

You can't be serious.

LemonMelon 07-30-2012 09:14 PM

deep

has a disciple

!


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