German court outlaws circumcision for boys
 

Interesting finding. Full article: https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...?newsfeed=true

Some details:

Any thoughts?

I seem to remember there may have been threads in the past about this as I specifically remember melon contributing his thoughts so if it's appropriate to merge, feel free.

since in Europe the tendency to outlaw anything related to Islam, when the law remotely gives reason to do so, seems to become more & more prevalent
it seems to make sense not just to restrict this to one religion and treat every other religion equally

will be interesting to see how this will pan out though
because usually this ends up in people (who wouldn't be able to tell where in their neighbourhood you'd be able to find a church) starting to yell that it'd be outrageous if they'd have to tolerate this

Tradition and religion are the laziest reasons for doing anything. If it's a violation of personal rights, it doesn't matter if it's a religious tradition. There are plenty of traditions around the world that wouldn't fly in western society

If the Mormons had started circumcising people, they would have never legalized it to begin with. The only reason it's legal is because, like JT said, it's a tradition. Otherwise, the idea of chopping off body parts at birth is insane (and no one be silly enough to bring up the umbilical cord).

I support it, don't cut the damn little thing... it's more sexual pleasure for the guy in long run, parent involvement should be limited in this.

I've never understood the point to begin with. And I agree on the whole lack of consent thing. It's a weird practice.

It's part of dedicating a child in Judaism. Kind of a big deal, actually. :wink:

I don't really care. This has no relevance to Christians whatsoever, honestly. Pretty sure Paul rails against it at one point.

Oh, yeah, I knew it had to do with the Jewish faith and such, I just don't get how that procedure is supposed to relate to that faith, exactly. But admittedly, I'm not well-versed in Jewish rituals :p.

I'm torn on this issue but since I haven't had kids yet I haven't had to decide where I stand. In general, I do not see the point in this and I would not do it because I am trying to force religion or tradition on my child. The issue for me/us is that around here, all the guys are circumcised, so having an uncircumcised child would definitely make him "different" (even if it's more natural, or better, or giving him the freedom to chose). Even if in this case the difference is so insignificant and private, I'm sure we can all relate to being different in some way and feeling like we stand out, even if no one else knows. I asked a friend about this because she grew up in Europe and her first husband is European. She is a lot like me in that we don't really see the point of this, but she had her son circumcised because her first husband (his father) was despite being European. I don't remember the whole conversation but it was also something that she took into consideration and gave me some convincing arguments for doing it (for the son to be like his father) despite neither of us giving a shit about religion or tradition. Also I've never had a guy friend, boyfriend, partner say he wished he wasn't circumcised.

So I don't know....but if it got banned here I guess it wouldn't matter to me, then my mind would automatically be made up.

This is such a tricky topic. I've always viewed it as a human rights issue. Unless it's medically required, I don't think parents should be able to remove a part of their child's body. I get that it's religious and it's a tradition etc etc but a male should be able to decide for himself. I also understand that there is a longer recovery time when you're older, but that's not an excuse to remove a body part without the person's permission.

I honestly don't get how this is a violation of religious freedom. What does religious freedom have to do with removal of a body part without permission? I would never feel comfortable doing that to my own son since it should be his decision and not my own.

San Francisco: Circumcision Ban and Religious Freedom - TIME

San Francisco tried to ban it last summer.

"Male-genital-integrity rights"... ya gotta love hippies.

And who doesn't love anti-Semitism?

i think this is much more for the father, though. i don't think boys (at least in the West) spend much time (if ever) thinking about whether or not their father is circumcised, and i don't think they'd want to either. and if it did come up, i'm sure it could be easily explained.

it's simply unnecessary. and i believe about half of American boys born today aren't circumcised, so whatever mild social stigma is probably gone.

and those boys with foreskins are likely going to be thankful in the long run.

I don't doubt it but that is half of American boys as a whole. If you look at the smaller context of the community in which I was raised, live, and work I'd honestly be impressed if you found one, so it's not just the father but the peers as well.

Something I won't do is not do it just because everyone else is. I don't like to make reactive decisions like that. I personally do not see the point, all of the religious, tradition, and cultural context aside so I'm inclined not to do it but it's not up to just me and so far it seems like the men/fathers are still all for it. :huh:

What does this have to do with anything? Not that I'm surprised you'd support a tradition because "hey, it's what we do". What were you saying in the other thread about exercising your brain?

And it's amazing that you'd find rights to "Male Genital Integrity" to be so outside your worldview

No, SAN FRANCISCO didn't try and ban it, a small group did. The vote didn't even make it to the ballot.

Maybe Beck didn't tell you that part :shrug:

I've heard really sad stories from certain rural midwest towns where boys who were in tact were made fun of for being "freaks" when showering for gym. :(

I have had this discussion with my partner because I strongly feel that it's an antiquated, barbaric, and unnecessary practice and I am very much against inflicting it on any sons we may have. Mercifully he agrees so there is really no conflict there.

There are many important stages in the life of a Jew, beginning with the "Brit Mila" which has its origin in biiblical times and in Hebrew it is called a "Brit Milla" (hence the word "Bris" in Yiddish). It symbolizes the "Brit" (covenant) between a Jew and G-d. Here is some more information:

Brit Milah - The Covenant of Circumcision (Bris)

There are tribes in Africa that also have important stages in the life of their females

I always found it odd that the western world is so against female circumcision but so for male circumcision. I don't see a difference.