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Irvine511 04-30-2012 10:26 PM

Spot on, Sean.

Indy, it really bothers me that you've reduced Savage's decades long relationship with his partner and their family (they have a son) to what he "does in his bedroom."

Are you telling me that their relationship and status as parents is sinful that you magnanimously then state is really no worse than adultery or murder?

And you then are surprised at how strongly people react to this notion? And then you have the nerve to call Savage a vicious, hateful bigot?

Do you not get that being gay isnt a sex act?

Irvine511 04-30-2012 10:43 PM

Quote:


And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.

You realize that this is exactly what Savage is talking about?

ladyfreckles 05-01-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7508270)

And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.

Jesus never spoke of it. It is only in Romans 1:26–27 (and that entire section of Romans is completely messed up, to be honest, and has backwards logic), and SOME translations of 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 (which rather than condemning homosexuality, it merely states that there are plenty of other sin to watch out for). It's important to note that many translations contain at most a very vague reference to it in Romans. The thing about the bible is that major languages it was originally written in are both drastically different from the English language in structure. Many things are added, wordings are changed, and the original meaning lost.

A friend of mine is fluent in Hebrew (and Arabic, and dutch) and has read the bible in that form. Considering she works as a translator (for other things--not the bible) I trust her skill with the language. I am aware that there's no way to state this for certain unless I myself learn hebrew and read it in hebrew, but according to her and one of the biblical scholars I spoke to, many of the "rules" that modern day English-speaking Christians/Catholics follow do not even exist or make definitive sense in the original language. It's a whole lot of adding words in to make the sentence makes sense, which various translators have done differently.

I just wanted to clear this up. I know the NIV version does make the mentions you are referring to (I believe Timothy has one as well) but not all translations of the bible have them, and in certain versions the homosexuality is actually added into the bible shortly after homosexuality started being widely known around the 1980s.

INDY500 05-01-2012 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7508307)
Spot on, Sean.

Indy, it really bothers me that you've reduced Savage's decades long relationship with his partner and their family (they have a son) to what he "does in his bedroom."

Are you telling me that their relationship and status as parents is sinful that you magnanimously then state is really no worse than adultery or murder?

And you then are surprised at how strongly people react to this notion? And then you have the nerve to call Savage a vicious, hateful bigot?

Do you not get that being gay isnt a sex act?

Really? You know very well that "does in his bedroom." was the boilerplate critique of anyone critical of the gay lifestyle. "What do you care what someone does in their bedroom?" And actually most people would agree with that or that the bullying of a child because you know or suspect they're gay is simply wrong.

But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?

Irvine511 05-01-2012 05:56 PM

here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:

Quote:

"So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, “Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,” you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed.

Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male. And when your daughter starts acting to Butch you reign her in. And you say, “Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.”

You say, “Can I take charge like that as a parent?”

Yeah, you can. You are authorized. I just gave you a special dispensation this morning to do that."


you can listen to the very disturbing audio here:

Video: Amendment 1 pastor gives parents 'special dispensation' to use violence against LGBT kids!!! - Good As You:: Gay and Lesbian Activism With a Sense of Humor



THIS is why gay kids kill themselves.

Irvine511 05-01-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7508576)
Really? You know very well that "does in his bedroom." was the boilerplate critique of anyone critical of the gay lifestyle. "What do you care what someone does in their bedroom?" And actually most people would agree with that or that the bullying of a child because you know or suspect they're gay is simply wrong.

But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?



stop this "lifestyle" bullshit right now. there is no lifestyle. there are only lives. being a vegetarian is a lifestyle. being a triathlete is a lifestyle. being gay is not a lifestyle. it is a sexual orientation.

yes, really. i've never used "does in his bedroom" as a defense. i've always, ALWAYS resisted reducing gay people to sex acts. "do in his bedroom" is a step along the way to acceptance -- why do we care who fucks who? -- but it always has and always will reduce people to sex acts.

again, Savage is talking about the fact that it is "bullshit" for people to use the bible to justify homophobia while they're willing to eat shellfish, wear beards, and not stone women to death or have slaves.

corianderstem 05-01-2012 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7508580)
here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:

Christ, what an asshole.

cobl04 05-01-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511
here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:

you can listen to the very disturbing audio here:

Video: Amendment 1 pastor gives parents 'special dispensation' to use violence against LGBT kids!!! - Good As You:: Gay and Lesbian Activism With a Sense of Humor

THIS is why gay kids kill themselves.

Over to you, Indy.

BVS 05-01-2012 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7508576)

But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?

Keep harping on your misunderstanding... it's what you do :shrug:

Irvine511 05-01-2012 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobl04 (Post 7508589)
Over to you, Indy.



to be fair, INDY has made it clear he does not condone this kind of thing.

but this IS what Savage is talking about. "for the Bible tells me so."

Jive Turkey 05-01-2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7508576)
view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years

If this doesn't set off any alarm bells, nothing will. Does your doctor still practice Miasma Theory? Blood letting? Do you still ascribe pregnancy to double seed theory? If you came across someone from 2000 years ago, you'd think he was an idiot

PhilsFan 05-01-2012 08:28 PM

It's the way we've always done things, but it's different than those other ways we've always done things that turned out to be misguided, you guys. INDY's right on this one. Homosexuality is wrong because it just is wrong. You either feel that truth or you don't. INDY does. He knows it to be. And thus, gays cannot get married, because INDY knows he's right in his heart of hearts, even if he cannot scrap together one shred of a coherent argument against it. We've always done it this way, it must be right. Don't compare it to slavery or considering minorities to be inferior, because it's different. Why is it different? Because INDY just knows it is.

Moonlit_Angel 05-01-2012 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7508576)
But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?

Those people believed a lot of things that were proven wrong. People at one time believed the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the Earth because the Bible supposedly said so, in their eyes. I think you would agree that line of thinking is "bullshit", right?

There was no logical, scientific, rational reason for their view of sexuality. They felt that way about sexuality because they thought that's what some supposed being in the sky believed. So, no, it's NOT a "reduction" to call out that line of thinking as "bullshit", it's spot on.

Here, let's take religion out of the equation for a minute. Answer me this, INDY-are there any other NON-religious reasons why homosexuality should be frowned upon? Please answer this. I'd like to know what you have to say.

Oh, and as for that jackass pastor...anyone else in the mood to give him a taste of his own "advice"? What a loser.

ladyfreckles 05-01-2012 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7508576)
Really? You know very well that "does in his bedroom." was the boilerplate critique of anyone critical of the gay lifestyle. "What do you care what someone does in their bedroom?" And actually most people would agree with that or that the bullying of a child because you know or suspect they're gay is simply wrong.

But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?

Hold up here.

Human sexuality was never "understood" by people who followed the bible, especially considering the original language the bible is in does not differentiate. On top of that, our scientific understanding of how the human mind works is very recent. Secondly, there is no "gay" lifestyle. It's not even an opinion, it's a fact. In the womb, your sexuality is decided around the same time you get your genitals. This is recent stuff. Previously homosexuality, like many natural things that people deem to be uncommon/different, was considered to be a mental illness.

Homosexuality was also very common and considered natural thousands of years ago. Look up "sexuality in ancient egypt/greece/etc". I do consider someone's beliefs to be "bull" if science has already disproven them. It's not a lifestyle. It's not unnatural, and in regards to "intelligent design", if anything it's God's mistake. Biologically if were all homosexual we would have died out years ago. Though one could argue the many benefits to having that as a sexuality in tribal times: for one, it would be two people you could count on to never get pregnant and have to give up their duties to the community because they have to raise their kids.

Irvine511 05-01-2012 10:40 PM

People have done a bang up job of understanding gender for thousands of years, haven't they.

Moonlit_Angel 05-01-2012 11:12 PM

Seriously. We're honestly still having such a discussion in 2012? Really? People still, for real, buy into that line of thinking to this day?

Man, the place I note in my location fits really well some days.

ladyfreckles 05-01-2012 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel (Post 7508701)
Seriously. We're honestly still having such a discussion in 2012? Really? People still, for real, buy into that line of thinking to this day?

Man, the place I note in my location fits really well some days.

For some people it takes a very long time, especially when they are older and have held these beliefs since a time when homosexuality was wildly considered to be (and treated medically as) a mental illness. Some people are raised by parents who are stuck in this belief system. It's also easy to not pay attention to science as you get older because, let's face it, there's just too much to keep up on top of what these people already know. I don't blame anyone for holding these beliefs, I just try to educate them. The neurological development of human sexuality wasn't put into child development/psychology textbooks until very recently.

cobl04 05-02-2012 12:06 AM

The homosexual former leader of our most socially progressive party underwent electric shock therapy in the 70s to attempt to cure himself. So glad we've made progress since then.

PhilsFan 05-02-2012 03:17 AM

Fuck it, I'm going back to punching some ladies. They really knew how to do it in the '50s, am I right? Low taxes, lots of jobs, no blacks and lady punching! Let's live it up like Mad Men is in the future, you guys.

Irvine511 05-02-2012 08:48 AM

Tax rates in the 1950s were much higher than they are today.


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