U2 Feedback

U2 Feedback (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/)
-   Free Your Mind (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/)
-   -   So, we're fucked, right? (https://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/so-were-fucked-right-211826.html)

Earnie Shavers 07-31-2011 08:53 AM

A lot of concern and anger over the Tea Party in UK media today. Confusion too.

LJT 07-31-2011 10:58 AM

Definitely a lot of anger over here. (From the Observer)

https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...ly-201-002.jpg

Earnie Shavers 07-31-2011 02:24 PM

UK - The Guardian The Tea Party is a real threat to America

UK - The Independent Tea Party holds US and the world to ransom

Germany - Der Speigel Annihilating Democracy with the Tea Party

Irvine511 07-31-2011 03:24 PM

has the term "Cold Civil War" caught on across the pond yet? (it's actually been around for a few years, but has caught fire this week in the blogosphere)

that's the new (yet old) meme over here.

it's 1862 again, only being played out like 1961.

MrsSpringsteen 07-31-2011 03:47 PM

Every expert I've seen on tv says that these cuts without revenue increases will lead to even higher unemployment. I thought the Republicans wanted JOBS?

I want paychecks to stop for all these politicians. I want to go all Cowboys and Aliens on them with Daniel Craig. Then we can hang out after. Right now a cowboy movie with cowboys and Indians being attacked by aliens makes way more sense to me than our f'ed up govt.

LJT 07-31-2011 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7308691)
has the term "Cold Civil War" caught on across the pond yet? (it's actually been around for a few years, but has caught fire this week in the blogosphere)

that's the new (yet old) meme over here.

it's 1862 again, only being played out like 1961.

I have not heard it in the media over here. I think we have a problem in the UK and likely the rest of Europe of actually conceptualising the problems in the US, the whole debate is so polarised (though I think since the current and last government's have been in power we're getting a bit more of that). It's just no one over here would even consider electing the Republicans (as they are at the moment) or tea partiers over here, it's difficult to understand the power they wield to actually do something this drastic to your country.

Generally American politics i've found fascinating but incredibly alien, and I use you guys in Free your mind to get more info or clarity on the subjects as usually in the media here some things are a bit skipped over or left unexplained.

maycocksean 07-31-2011 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen (Post 7308709)
I thought the Republicans wanted JOBS?

No, no, no, no.

There can't be more jobs right now. . .not while Obama is on office. He'd just take credit and sail to re-election next November. Right now it's vital that unemployment continue to rise.

I dare the handful of conservatives on this forum to say they'd like to see unemployment decrease under Obama's watch.

mobvok 07-31-2011 11:15 PM

The Republicans could decide the Tooth Fairy was responsible for our economic malaise, and within 3 months we'd see Obama on TV urging Americans to keep an open mind about paranormal tooth pilfers.

Irvine511 08-01-2011 12:04 AM

or, we realize that politics is the art of the possible and is all compromise and negotiation, and the present president has to deal with a party that is controlled by suicide cult fanatics who were, yes, elected in droves in 2010 and control one of the two houses of congress. the Tea Partiers are insane but that doesn't mean that they can be ignored.

mobvok 08-01-2011 01:12 AM

I think many Obama defenders are using a narrow truth about the justifiable concessions effective political leaders make to balance principles against achievable political reality, to defend an absolutely unacceptable years long broader trend of seemingly irrational choices that I think deliberately establishes a conservative playing field in the background to create the parameters for the compromise. Then the Administration turns to the liberal wing and makes mournful faces about the terrible concessions we had to make.

4 case points:

1) the Affordable Care Act
2) the December 2010 Tax Cuts
3) the January 2011 failure to reform the filibuster/60 vote requirement
4) this recent debt ceiling crisis

#1 was the formative experience for analyzing the rest of the cases. I read a really persuasive analysis in early 2010 about the Affordable Care Act, which essentially said that despite all my liberal angst-no public option, weaker subsidies, slower enactment- the way the playing field was setup with 60 votes in the Senate meant that as long as conservatives and conservative Democrats could tolerate the status quo, or no bill, that meant Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman held de facto veto power. And so the bill moved to the right, and that was ok.

#2 directly led to #4 by agreeing to Republican demands to increase the deficit by extending the Bush tax cuts, without getting a debt ceiling increase in exchange. This was a deliberate choice that caused the current possibility of default.

We're not going to see the first hand consequences of #3 for a while yet, but should a miracle happen and the Democrats re-take the House in 2012, rest assured that we're going to be patted on the head and told that any effective climate change strategy, or effective liberal justice, or effective single payer is just going to be held up by Susan Collins and Lindsay Graham's demands dontchaknow. Rhetoric about how Democrats totally believe in liberal policy seems pretty vapid if they willingly embrace legislative options that make it impossible.

Finally, #4. This really irritates me. Let's ignore how Obama's rhetoric on debts and deficits started aping Republicans, let's move ahead to early July, when the Administration explicitly tried to squelch the growing movement to invoke the 14th Amendment. Just keep in mind, with compromise and negotiation, what effective use of that entails. Instead of keeping the issue alive until now as leverage, a sort of Damocles' sword hanging above the Republicans' head to minimize their demands lest Obama decide negotiation's not worth it and Republicans end up with nothing, Jay Carney and the White House PR go out of their way to say they don't believe it's a useful option. Why on earth would you shoot yourself in the foot like that? Even if you have a questionable case, its presentation as a plausible option supports your negotiating position.

My options at this juncture are to believe that Obama's either an idiot or really smart. I'm going with intelligent. I hear about 11-dimensional chess every so often, and I agree: the man's patient, and he knows how to get what he wants. He wanted a Grand Bargain that would take the deficit "off the table", and whatever wacky demands the Republicans come up with he makes a conscious choice to entertain. The seemingly haphazard way he places forks and spoons makes far more sense once I realized he's just choosing to set the table in a different way.

Earnie Shavers 08-01-2011 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7309330)
or, we realize that politics is the art of the possible and is all compromise and negotiation, and the present president has to deal with a party that is controlled by suicide cult fanatics who were, yes, elected in droves in 2010 and control one of the two houses of congress. the Tea Partiers are insane but that doesn't mean that they can be ignored.

Obama should have been wandering the streets of Washington every night with a shotgun and a megaphone, just scaring the shit out of people.

The Tea Party's historic level of stupidity can't be ignored, but it should be far, far, far more forcefully condemned and mocked. It shouldn't be accommodated and legitimised. I know their base will never understand that, because they are the stupid, but they're never going to come around to anything intelligent and reasonable anyway, so let 'em go. They all - elected and base - can and should be completely discredited and marginalised, no? Republicans need to grow a pair, and Obama needs to recognise when it's a good time to be all calm and reasonable, and when he needs to be all Clinton drinking from the well of Cheney or something.

Salome 08-01-2011 05:53 AM

a vast percentage of US debt is to China
the Chinese have already stated they deem the US is guilty of irresponsible behaviour over the way this has been handled
the damage has been done and the interest rate the US will have to pay over their debt will increase

I don't much understand much about US politics, but I do understand a fair bit about economics
and the US is playing an incredibly dangerous game
if they haven't lost the game already

Earnie Shavers 08-01-2011 06:32 AM

Just imagine if the Tea Party ever got their hands on foreign policy. :yikes:

mobvok 08-01-2011 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers (Post 7309581)
Just imagine if the Tea Party ever got their hands on foreign policy. :yikes:

get Australia ready for more whining and a pervasive sense of victimization

Earnie Shavers 08-01-2011 06:52 AM

June 24, 2013, Parliament House, Canberra. "So, President Palin just rang, it seems to be all about something she saw on YouTube, but I think she's serious. So an awkward decision here guys: do we gear our military up to fight the Chinese, or gear our military up to fight with the Chinese. "

Earnie Shavers 08-01-2011 07:05 AM

"I did try and explain that those dragons are just men in costume."

BVS 08-01-2011 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers (Post 7309540)
The Tea Party's historic level of stupidity can't be ignored, but it should be far, far, far more forcefully condemned and mocked. It shouldn't be accommodated and legitimised. I know their base will never understand that, because they are the stupid, but they're never going to come around to anything intelligent and reasonable anyway, so let 'em go. They all - elected and base - can and should be completely discredited and marginalised, no? Republicans need to grow a pair, and Obama needs to recognise when it's a good time to be all calm and reasonable, and when he needs to be all Clinton drinking from the well of Cheney or something.

:up:

mobvok 08-01-2011 07:12 AM

Psssh President Palin is so 2000 and late, Michele Bachmann is the new bogeyman. She's the only one seriously competing for Iowa (the first state) in the GOP Presidential race so the idea is she picks up momentum and flattens the rest of the field.

I will say it looks like she's actually a true believer rather than an obnoxiously patronizing latch-on like Palin. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a terrible thing.

MrsSpringsteen 08-01-2011 09:38 AM

So it was basically all for nothing?

Headache in a Suitcase 08-01-2011 10:40 AM

nah... it's only just begun.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com