Star Wars Episode VIII: A New Thread

[CosmoKramer]

I agree with you. marvel films are way better.

I grew up a huge DC fan. Superman is my favorite hero followed by Batman. I always thought of the Marvel characters as B and C level superheroes and yet I can honestly say I have enjoyed, to some extent, every single one of the MCU movies and the final payoff of Endgame was masterfully crafted to incorporate some aspect of all of those prior movies and what a damn payoff in the 3rd act of that movie!

Thanos was also one of the most unique movie villains because he was so powerful and actually won and yet they still managed to pull off getting a 2nd shot at him.

Now you have me excited, so I’m going to group these movies!

Incredible:
Iron Man 1
Captain America Winter Solider (on your left)
Guardians of the Galaxy
Thor Ragnarok
Civil War
Avengers 1
Infinity War
Endgame

Good movies:
Guardians 2
Spider-Man Homecoming
Spider Man Far From Home
Ant Man and Wasp
Black Panther

Solid Movies:
Iron Man 3
Captain America 1
Thor 2
Captain Marvel
Ant Man
Dr. Strange
Age of Ultron

Meh but enjoyable
Thor 1
Iron Man 2


What I like the most is the cohesiveness of all of these movies and how they follow the same time line....so cool.

 

[lazarus]

Saw TROS last night.

Honestly? It was really boring for the most part. There were no stakes. There was no sense of tension or fear. Everyone kills the bad guys easily, even if they aren't force sensitive. Nobody can die, they just become one with the force. Average people can't die. Twice we assume someone dies and they don't. Plot contrivances allow characters to easily get from point A to point B. And the whole thing is one long video game fetch quest. Guys, it's a boring movie. Without getting into detailed spoilers or logical issues, that's the problem. I could get into how corny and desperate Palpatine's insertion into this film was, but that was a relatively small problem compared to the lack of stakes and struggle.

Now, it's not all bad. The acting is quite good. The score is nice. There are some warm, feely moments that are executed well. A couple things made me cry, you know, in a good way. The way Kylo's arc is handled illustrates that there was some planning and consistency involved in mapping out his fate. The ending is literally ROTJ with updated effects, but you feel the characters generally deserve what happened to them. The last scene was stupid but I didn't feel angry or cheated when I left. That's all I got.

Overall, a mediocre movie without a lot of soul. The characters have some soul, and the film draws heavily on that, but the whole enterprise itself does not. These three movies do not work together and that was to be expected. I figured some retconning of TLJ would take place, but the real problem is thematic inconsistency. Nobody seems to have learned anything from TLJ. Instead it's just ignored or treated like a moment of weakness, rather than an opportunity for personal growth. Still not the worst SW movie by any stretch, and it's even quite enjoyable in the moment, but man there are some dull stretches in this movie. Basically the whole first act is a snooze. The first act of TLJ had more creative, gutsy and memorable moments than this entire film combined.

I'm back at my laptop and don't have to rely on swype, so I'll expound on my impressions a bit. At its core, the reason Rise of Skywalker does not work for me as a viewing experience is that it feels 1) easy and 2) inevitable. You can have action/adventure movies that are inevitable; some of my all-time favorite films have a sense of impending doom about them that contribute to a sick sensation of fruitlessness. It's a building block of tragedy. But when a film has an inevitable ending and the journey there is easy, it's a huge problem.

But Star Wars is a series for kids! It can't possibly challenge its audience this way! Fuck off, of course it can. And it has. The first time was in The Empire Strikes Back, a film not entirely without hope but a real struggle for its characters regardless. It was a difficult, challenging film and divisive at the time but resulted in one of the decade's greatest action/adventure films (in a decade full of them) and one of cinema's most iconic scenes. Empire's influence spread in the ensuing decade to films like Infinity War, How to Train Your Dragon 2 and, of course, within its own franchise.

Fast forward 37 years and we were given The Last Jedi, a film that served as an echo of Empire's themes and dour tone. It insisted that anyone could contribute positively as a force for good, but that it may be a brutal climb. Nothing came easy in this film. Legendary characters died. Everyone doubted their beliefs and came through their dark night of the soul with a different perspective on the force and their place in the universe. Though an undeniably flawed and divisive film, its philosophy and actions were harmonious, leading to a complete product that can be considered a reflection of its creator's point of view.

But even though Star Wars can and does step out on a limb from time to time, the reactions are not always positive and that can be devastating with the wrong leadership. The Rise of Skywalker is entertaining but ultimately a soulless husk of a film because it fears its own audience. It refuses to challenge, question or prod. Everything comes easy and is solved within minutes. We can't even reflect on the challenges in front of our heroes as they happen because they're overcome so quickly.

Sure, anyone could tell you without even creating parallels to ROTJ that the good guys are going to win. It's the last film in the trilogy. It's common sense. But their win doesn't feel earned because the journey there was so smooth. This is an effect of the script's lack of focus and refusal to slow down, forcing plot points to be quite literally completed at lightspeed. Too many things happen too quickly with no time for reflection, something sorely needed if this film is to connect with its predecessors at all. The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi do not agree at all about matters of destiny and fatalism, but The Rise of Skywalker could have served as a mediator. Instead, it's an excuse to find MacGuffins that unlock other MacGuffins.

In the end, I don't know what this trilogy was trying to say because there was no guiding force behind it, and the ending was dull and rote because they were too scared to risk anything and have faith in its audience which is, ironically, abandoning the franchise because so little new and fresh is being contributed. It's a sad state of affairs but could have been alleviated if they had simply offered a challenge: to the characters, to the franchise, to the viewership.

I agree with everything you've written here, aside from your "still not the worst SW movie by any stretch" which I'm assuming is in reference to the prequels, and for me I don't understand how Lucas's missteps in those outweigh what you characterize as a lack of soul and cohesion in TROS and the new trilogy in general. We've been over this debate numerous times, but Lucas, despite the inconsistent dialogue and performances, actually had thought-out thematics and character arcs; whether they feel "realistic" isn't as important as the way they contribute to the overall mythology and the tropes Lucas originally drew from Joseph Campbell. You add in the considerably superior world-building and visual prowess (Abrams is neither a better frame composer or a constructer of set pieces), and it's no contest to me. TROS in particular is a failure by any measure of screenwriting aside from the dialogue sounding natural, but even there you have absolute self-aware idiocy like "They can fly now?" - "They fly now!", and a host of other exposition-heavy stuff that betrays poor storytelling. We zip from planet to planet with little time to understand where we are, let alone care, and by contrast I could name every planet visited in Episodes I-VI and describe them all to you as well as the native population of each.

There is a grandeur missing from The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker, and with the latter you're left with a combination of nostalgic shout-outs via the cheapest of fan service choices (Chewie's medal? Are you fucking kidding me?), exaggeration of Force powers to the point where any boundaries are meaningless and Kylo and Rey come off like superheroes, and a kitchen sink stakes-raising approach to the finale that winds up resembling the climax of every comic book movie where the whole world/galaxy is about to be destroyed but you feel absolutely nothing in the way of tension or gravity.

Lucas has his flaws, but making something that felt completely incompetent and meaningless in all these ways wasn't one of them. And that should carry more weight if we're ranking these films.

 

[CosmoKramer]

I’m curious what you think. My opinion is that if one loves TLJ, they will hate this one but we shall see.

As it stands, I predict this will open well below TLJs $220 million in North America and may miss $200. Now, keep in mind a $200 million opening or anything North of $150 is incredible for this time of year but for a Star Wars episode, anything south of $200 will feel a little disappointing and anything south of $150 and we might have a Justice League size bomb on our hands (sure it will make more than JL but it might fall short of 2 or dare I say all 3 of the prequels adjusted.

To be clear, while I hated TLJ, I love Star Wars and hope this thing can make $650/$700 domestic and $1.4/1.5. Illinois WW but I think this will trigger to get to $600 domestic and $1.1 billion WW.

Maybe it was just me that thinks this was a mess but we shall see........

I love numbers, so ignore this if you don’t care about the movies performance(not indicative of quality....necessarily).

So this did miss a $200 opening weekend and came in at $177 and as I mentioned while that’s bad (more indicative of the “impact” TLJ had IMO), it wasn’t a flop by any stretch(3rd biggest December opening ever).

The weekdays this past week were actually solid with 2 days hitting 30+ million but that was largely due to the calendar (1st week of release combined with the holiday/time off for kids).

With that said, early projections for this weekend were as high as $100 million and $85 million on the low end (given this is largely considered part of the holiday weekend). However, as the weekend approached those projections began to fall to $75-$80 million but the numbers I am seeing are indicating something in the range of $65-70 million.

What does this mean? It means that WOM is very bad and this movie that I initially thought would struggle to get to $600 million is likely going to struggle to get to $500 million and $1 billion WW.

Now $1 billion is a badge of honor for almost any movie but not a Star Wars “episode” and certainly not the final movie in a Star Wars Trilogy. Not only is it very possible that it will gross less than Rogue One (a spin off based on a single line in a movie...but a good movie nevertheless) and Revenge of the Sith adjusted for inflation ($560 million) but it might very well gross less than Attack of the Clones ($480 million) and earn the distinction of the lowest grossing Star Wars movie not named Solo.

How the fuck do you go from $2 billion WW with your first movie all the way down to $1 billion two films later?!

The answer is you don’t have any semblance of a plan for a story for the biggest North American movie franchise, which is almost the equivalent of releasing your album to 500 million people without telling them(I say almost because it’s worse than that because Star Wars is still held in such high regard).

This isn’t a flop or a disaster but holy shit is this massively disappointing. After TFA, I would have expected this to gross $1.7 billion and after TLJ I would have expected $1.5 billion, so for this to fall to about $1.0 billion is a huge miss($500 million in gross is about $250 million in profit).

I hope I am wrong and this movie could leg it out to $1.1 or $1.2 billion but I’m not seeing that in my trends.

As much as I hated TLJ and Rian Johnson’s vision, i would have preferred he wrote and directed all 3, so at least there would be a cohesive story vs what this ended up being(would have preferred J.J. do all 3 but shit, I would take M. Night doing all 3 as long as they flowed somehow).

I would even say there is a very slight chance this thing misses $1.0 billion.. [emoji20]

 

[lazarus]

I think the tracking you're looking at is incomplete: the film just had two weekdays of over $30 million. The only other two films ever to do so were The Force Awakens and Endgame.

So I think it's likely it makes more than The Last Jedi, even if not much more.

 

[CosmoKramer]

I think the tracking you're looking at is incomplete: the film just had two weekdays of over $30 million. The only other two films ever to do so were The Force Awakens and Endgame.

So I think it's likely it makes more than The Last Jedi, even if not much more.

If you compare box office runs after this weekend, TROS will be about equal with TLJ for the first 10 days in North America and that is despite opening 20% lower. To your point that is due to the massive 30 million days but starting tomorrow is when TLJ enters its “holiday week” and you are going to see huge separation with TLJ grossing 10 million more per day this week and continuing into next week (when TLJ had its New Years).

I could be wrong and it is only 10 days into its run and I don’t even have 2nd weekend numbers yet....so I’m making my assumptions on only 7 days of data and therefore could be completely off but it’s fun to trend/compare.

For now, my final guess (that’s really what it is) is:

Total North American gross: $500-530 million and I’ll go with 523 million

Total WW gross: $1030-$1070 and I’ll go with $1058

I’ll give periodic updates on how it’s doing for those that are interested.

 

[dazzledbylight]

There is a grandeur missing from The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker, and with the latter you're left with a combination of nostalgic shout-outs via the cheapest of fan service choices (Chewie's medal? Are you fucking kidding me?), exaggeration of Force powers to the point where any boundaries are meaningless and Kylo and Rey come off like superheroes, and a kitchen sink stakes-raising approach to the finale that winds up resembling the climax of every comic book movie where the whole world/galaxy is about to be destroyed but you feel absolutely nothing in the way of tension or gravity.

Sorry you weren't drawn in. I found TROS to be exciting, tension filled , with many moving, interesting and funny moments, with amazing visuals, and scenes of grandeur. Same for TLJ.

I get some peoples complaint about not having one director for all three for tone, the characters choices, and continuality. Didn't really bother me. Perhaps seeing TFA only once ($ issues), while definitely remembering some parts - i didn't have a more solid whole from multiple veiwings.

As to the "super powers" stuff...

Spoiler

Idk, we've never seen everything Jedis could do. since The Force is a tension between all things a Grandmaster Jedi could manipulate things in even more amazing ways. And what if this dyad effect between Kylo and Rey is a synergistic effect, so it really acts like a super power. And some of stuff Jedi do are super powers to non-fotce users.

darn, namcuR wanted to chat about your review. Later for tha t, my library WIFI is soon to close.

 

[gump]

Having watched Episodes I-III again after a long time I have this to say. Revenge of the Sith is seriously underrated - perhaps the closest to “space opera” that this series has reached. Attack of the Clones is very watchable too, but Christensen’s performance really drags the whole thing down (he was better by Episode III).

It’s also striking, for all their flaws, how these films are much more adventurous and imaginative than anything post Empire, with the exception of TLJ.

Revenge of the Sith also has a much better ending in Tatooine than Rise of Skywalker.

 

[gump]

.

 

[LemonMelon]

I remember loving Revenge of the Sith in the theater when I was 14. It is palpably dark and foreboding, a great thing, and it gets the audience to the heart of the storyline they wanted from the beginning. It is also, of course, a big improvement on the other prequels, so it seems like a masterpiece on first viewing.

However, returning to it as an adult highlighted the awful dialogue the film is saddled with. George Lucas has had a tin ear for dialogue from the beginning, with improvisation and significant collaborative efforts spackling over the cracks in the OT, and his writing really can't sell Obi-Wan and Anakin screaming at each other and doing backflips in front of a green screen lava river despite it being the narrative climax of the trilogy.

Quotable as hell though, in a Nicolas Cage Wicker Man kind of way. Sometimes the movie is fucking hilarious when it really wasn't meant to be.

HOLD ME, LIKE YOU DID BY THE LAKE ON NABOO

ANAKIN, YOU'RE BREAKING MY HEART!!!

MY POWERS HAVE DOUBLED SINCE WE LAST MET, COUNT

DON'T LECTURE ME OBI-WAN, I SEE THROUGH THE LIES OF THE JEDI

YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE SITH NOT JOIN THEM! I LOVED YOU!

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE JEDI ARE EVIL!

IT'S OVER, ANAKIN! I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND

YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POOOWEERRR

Spoiler

 

[DaveC]

HOLD ME, LIKE YOU DID BY THE LAKE ON NABOO

i took a girl that was way out of my league on a date to this movie and successfully made a move during this scene so i'll never complain too much about that line.

 

[LemonMelon]

i took a girl that was way out of my league on a date to this movie and successfully made a move during this scene so i'll never complain too much about that line.

Did you take her to the beach and complain about the sand getting everywhere?

 

[gump]

Yeah the dialogues are pretty bad throughout the prequels. Yoda in particular comes to mind.

On another topic, The Mandalorian was really excellent. Really loved the first season.

 

[DaveC]

Did you take her to the beach and complain about the sand getting everywhere?

she turned out to be coarse and rough and irritating enough herself after a couple months.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Spoiler

This scene is interesting in that it does two things:

1) it makes me cringe when he yells “nooo”...ugh. And don’t get me started on adding that “nooo” to the most epic scene of RoTJ when he kills the emperor.

2) the contrast between the villains of the OT and ST. Vader when faced with disappointment force crushes everything in sight. He clearly can’t control his emotions (in line with Anikan, so it makes sense) but you see the raw power and while he has no control as a viewer you see why he is so feared and respected(for his power at least). Compare that to Kylo Ren from TFA....when he has a set back after interrogating Rey he throws a hissy fit and slams his saber into a wall like a child. Then the two storm troopers look at each other and walk away, making the scene somewhat humorous as opposed to respecting his “power”. I never feared Kylo Ren or looked forward to his battle with X because he was a mess, no one respected him so as a viewer why should I.

Kylo Ren was mocked this entire trilogy and respected by hardly anyone (Rise of Skywalker showed him some respect but not much).

Hux didn’t fear him and openly challenged him in the first two movies (and the 3rd he clearly didn’t fear him)

Snoke ridiculed and mocked him in TLJ in a way the emperor never did Vader

Poe mocked him at the start of TFA

Fin wasn’t scared to face him at the end of TFA and held his own against him as did Rey(Rey actually beat him but that’s another story)....and I don’t want to hear he was hurt.

So Revenge of the Sith did have poor acting at times and poor CGI, it was a solid movie and I would say it was better than that most recent 2 Star Wars movies.

 

[lazarus]

I remember loving Revenge of the Sith in the theater when I was 14. It is palpably dark and foreboding, a great thing, and it gets the audience to the heart of the storyline they wanted from the beginning. It is also, of course, a big improvement on the other prequels, so it seems like a masterpiece on first viewing.

However, returning to it as an adult highlighted the awful dialogue the film is saddled with. George Lucas has had a tin ear for dialogue from the beginning, with improvisation and significant collaborative efforts spackling over the cracks in the OT, and his writing really can't sell Obi-Wan and Anakin screaming at each other and doing backflips in front of a green screen lava river despite it being the narrative climax of the trilogy.

Quotable as hell though, in a Nicolas Cage Wicker Man kind of way. Sometimes the movie is fucking hilarious when it really wasn't meant to be.

HOLD ME, LIKE YOU DID BY THE LAKE ON NABOO

ANAKIN, YOU'RE BREAKING MY HEART!!!

MY POWERS HAVE DOUBLED SINCE WE LAST MET, COUNT

DON'T LECTURE ME OBI-WAN, I SEE THROUGH THE LIES OF THE JEDI

YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE SITH NOT JOIN THEM! I LOVED YOU!

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE JEDI ARE EVIL!

IT'S OVER, ANAKIN! I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND

YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POOOWEERRR

Spoiler

I'll reiterate what I said in my long post: inconsistent dialogue and line deliveries shouldn't outweigh the other elements that determine how good a film is, particularly one in this genre.

The world-building, dramatic stakes, and the orchestration of the plot lines are better executed by Lucas in ROTS than Abrams in TROS. Not to mention that Lucas doesn't contradict himself across the three films in his trilogy in the way that these do, not just the obvious retconning on display, but in other odd loopholes and choices that seem out-of-character.

Honestly, the Force Teleportation alone should be enough to disqualify TROS from being better than anything.

 

[lazarus]

This scene is interesting in that it does two things:

1) it makes me cringe when he yells “nooo”...ugh. And don’t get me started on adding that “nooo” to the most epic scene of RoTJ when he kills the emperor.

2) the contrast between the villains of the OT and ST. Vader when faced with disappointment force crushes everything in sight. He clearly can’t control his emotions (in line with Anikan, so it makes sense) but you see the raw power and while he has no control as a viewer you see why he is so feared and respected(for his power at least). Compare that to Kylo Ren from TFA....when he has a set back after interrogating Rey he throws a hissy fit and slams his saber into a wall like a child. Then the two storm troopers look at each other and walk away, making the scene somewhat humorous as opposed to respecting his “power”. I never feared Kylo Ren or looked forward to his battle with X because he was a mess, no one respected him so as a viewer why should I.

Kylo Ren was mocked this entire trilogy and respected by hardly anyone (Rise of Skywalker showed him some respect but not much).

Hux didn’t fear him and openly challenged him in the first two movies (and the 3rd he clearly didn’t fear him)

Snoke ridiculed and mocked him in TLJ in a way the emperor never did Vader

Poe mocked him at the start of TFA

Fin wasn’t scared to face him at the end of TFA and held his own against him as did Rey(Rey actually beat him but that’s another story)....and I don’t want to hear he was hurt..

I had these same gripes about Kylo going back to The Force Awakens as well, despite finding him to be fascinating in many ways.

One thing you forgot, and this was right at the beginning of the film, is when Poe Dameron is captured and he mocks Kylo by saying "Do I talk first? Or you?" and then makes a joke about not being able to understand him through the mask.

So right off the bat they made him the butt of jokes.

 

[iron yuppie]

However, returning to it as an adult highlighted the awful dialogue the film is saddled with. George Lucas has had a tin ear for dialogue from the beginning, with improvisation and significant collaborative efforts spackling over the cracks in the OT, and his writing really can't sell Obi-Wan and Anakin screaming at each other and doing backflips in front of a green screen lava river despite it being the narrative climax of the trilogy.

I just half-watched Sith the other day, but paid particular attention to the ending, and I agree with every word of this. The awkwardness of the lava battle is made significantly worse by how much more skilled McGregor is as an actor than Christensen. McGregor is really trying to sell the dialogue, whereas Christensen sounds like he's doing a table read or something.

 

[bono_212]

I'll reiterate what I said in my long post: inconsistent dialogue and line deliveries shouldn't outweigh the other elements that determine how good a film is, particularly one in this genre.

The world-building, dramatic stakes, and the orchestration of the plot lines are better executed by Lucas in ROTS than Abrams in TROS. Not to mention that Lucas doesn't contradict himself across the three films in his trilogy in the way that these do, not just the obvious retconning on display, but in other odd loopholes and choices that seem out-of-character.

Honestly, the Force Teleportation alone should be enough to disqualify TROS from being better than anything.

I can't ever agree that the dialogue in ROTS is bad anyways. It's poorly delivered by a terrible actor, but I'll fight to the death to defend the final battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan, dialogue and all. It is probably my favorite scene in the franchise.

 

[LemonMelon]

I'll reiterate what I said in my long post: inconsistent dialogue and line deliveries shouldn't outweigh the other elements that determine how good a film is, particularly one in this genre.

The world-building, dramatic stakes, and the orchestration of the plot lines are better executed by Lucas in ROTS than Abrams in TROS. Not to mention that Lucas doesn't contradict himself across the three films in his trilogy in the way that these do, not just the obvious retconning on display, but in other odd loopholes and choices that seem out-of-character.

Honestly, the Force Teleportation alone should be enough to disqualify TROS from being better than anything.

You have your priorities and I have mine. Whatever the macro-level virtues of the prequels' overarching narrative, action films can and often are hampered by poor writing on a line-by-line basis. The kind of low quality anime dub dialogue I highlighted, and the line reads attached to it, absolutely kill movies for me with secondhand embarrassment.

"I'm more powerful!"

"No, I'M more powerful!"

"But my midichlorian count is over 9000!"

"Don't underestimate my power!"

That said, TROS has a completely different set of problems that is just as bad. Few things kill an action/adventure film like a lack of stakes and tension and TROS has neither because it doesn't respect its audience to grapple with death and change.

 

[CosmoKramer]

I could be wrong and it is only 10 days into its run and I don’t even have 2nd weekend numbers yet....so I’m making my assumptions on only 7 days of data and therefore could be completely off but it’s fun to trend/compare.

For now, my final guess (that’s really what it is) is:

Total North American gross: $500-530 million and I’ll go with 523 million

Total WW gross: $1030-$1070 and I’ll go with $1058

I’ll give periodic updates on how it’s doing for those that are interested.

Numbers update:

After 17 days, The Rise of Skywalker sits at $450 million domestic and $920 WW but the holidays are over and this coming week will see a dramatic drop in the domestic and oversees grosses. By comparison, The Last Jedi hit $520 by its 17th day and was comfortably over $1 billion(it is also entering “New Years” week and sees solid grosses for the next 5 days or so before it drops off post-holiday).

The good news is that The Rise of Skywalker will absolutely hit $500 domestic and $1 billion WW and will do so likely not this coming weekend but the following weekend(around day 30 or so).

The bad news is that it won’t make anywhere near what The Last Jedi made domestically or WW and my above “predictions” on day 7 of release are still about right but I think my $523 domestic is a bit optimistic at this point but the $1058 WW is about right (it will be close if it out grosses Rogue One or not).

I watching it again last night and loved the fan fare that saw so many OT characters back in some form or another and LOVE Babu Frit (best new character!) but it’s a hot mess for sure....like a real hot mess in so many ways.

Well, here is to hoping that the Disney + Obi Wan show is as great as I think it can be and that they move forward with a Lando show and Babu Frit show(more Kerri Russell’s character but they seem to be partners).

 

[dazzledbylight]

I don't why some of you have a problem with the Finn character. He leaves the First Order, helps Rey, does help the Resistance (afer being caught by Rose-but he was trying to help Rey), is a Force Sensitive. Boydega does s very good job, serious, funny, etc.
And i liked the way they brought him and Rose together - it was funny. I loved how he clicked into helping as they both clicked into what they both knew about trackers etc.

While the high stakes gambling town, and it could have been shortened - it presents interesting aspects. Rose says to Finn, "look closer" and you see the difference in regular peoples lives via the three stable kids. She tells him her planets story. You see the cruelty of the trainer. I loved the farthiers , some of the best animals in the SW universe. When they crash through the casino - Rose partly gets her wish.

 

[LemonMelon]

I like Finn very much, especially in Force Awakens. I don't like the nature of his relationship with Rey in ROTS because he lacks agency and spends too much of the film doting on her.

 

[gump]

The Finn character had great promise, but it never delivered. What was the point of his arc? There's also all the unexplained stuff in Episode IX. What did he want to tell Rey (and why allude to it so many times and not deliver?). And is he force sensitive/why? It just felt like a waste of a good character too me, overall. And the fact that they wrote off Rose from Episode IX to appease misogynist fanboys seems to have done him a disservice, as she had become an integral part of his character arc in my view.

 

[dazzledbylight]

LM Um... don't quite get where he had a lack of agency. Some vague thots but tell me - I may agree w you once i understand the details better.

As far as Finn and Rey go, I'm fuzzy on some of SW VII because i only saw it once ($ issue) after all this time. The went a lot together that can bond people.

gump To me his arc is can be as simple guy on bad side turns to good side, and all the different was he helps and becomes part of the Resistance.

It was a drag they cut down Rose's screen time for herself, and with Finn.

Maybe for the other questions - future media? Though as far as I know DR is done with it film-wise. Finn along with others could be trained by Rey "off-screen" and we see them later in their Jedi lives in ?one off film. Rey could be training padawans in books or comics.

 

[dazzledbylight]

, More thoughts on more seeds of Luke's Optimism re: Rey, reconnecting with The Force, and Leia in TLJ, afer I rewatched it again.
(you may not agree but I think I make a good case )

So Rey while they're sitting by the Temple's little pool after all their discussion the last thing Rey says is (probably much to his dismay), "The Galaxy may need a Legend". Previously she'd said, "Leia sent me here with hope".

Not too mich later he goes to open himself back up to the Force. Look how the little pool dances with Life after he does!
Before that though after he asks Chewie about Han, possibly somewhere in the back of his mind - he's got to be shocked, etc about Han being murdered he didn't know because he couldn't feel anyone's shock and grief through the Force ofafter it happened. People he was closest to. What did he feel from Leia one he had connected? It must have shook him hard. There she was truly with the weight of the Resistance upon her (after her previous years of other efforts) without her brother's shoulder to lean on, especially now that Han was gone! (why have only one shoulder, when you could have two )

It's also possible that in the reconnecting to Leia, and The Force in general he's also reminded of, feeling past joys of his connection with her, Chewie, etc, and with Life itself. He was so full of sorrow, guilt that eventually he became unbalanced himself.

When he goes to burn The Tree down, hesitates then when Yoda does it for him he leaps to save the original Jedi Texts, not knowing Rey took them. "Read them have you? Page-turners they were not". (love that line!) Maybe Yoda had changed some of his views. Yoda tells him "lose Rey, we must not".

So he goes off to help in a rather unique way. But listen to how he sounds when he tells Ren "and I will not be the last Jedi". He sounds positive with this. He does feel her darkness, but also her heart. "Ah, you still have that firery spit of Hope of a true Jedi, and that is why you must die", says Snoke. (anpther wonderful line) q Luke could now sense her feelings fighting against first Snoke, then refusing to join Ren and fighting him.

I think he became proud of her, and if things worked out she could become a goid, a great Jedi one possibly with dome new ways of being a Jedi.

 

[MrPryck2U]

I finally saw Episode 9. The only things that slightly perturbed me was Fin constantly yelling, and no ghost of Anakin or Obi- Wan showing up. Thought that would have been nice to see to bring things full circle. But, otherwise, enjoyed the movie. Plus, saw it at an Alamo Drafthouse Cinema, where you can order a meal and drinks while you view the film. My fiancée and I both ordered a Royale with cheese. Fried pickles too.

 

[LemonMelon]

@dazzled

What I mean by a "lack of agency" for Finn in TROS is that he seems like more of a sidekick than a dynamic character who makes his own decisions that impact the story in a meaningful way. He's like a little puppy chasing after Rey for most of the film, and when he does split off from the group later in the film, he's essentially following Jannah's lead to achieve a common goal.

It's not like he had a ton to do in Last Jedi, but at least in that movie he had control of a (somewhat pointless) subplot that was self-contained but showcased him as a character. TFA promised a really interesting free thinker who broke away from convention as a force-sensitive young man with agency, but in TROS he has devolved to the point where he's constantly chasing after Rey and yelling her name. Even his conversations with Poe come back to Rey.

I dunno. Just seems like kind of a wasted character.

 

[gump]

https://www.esquire.com/entertainme...-wars-9-original-script-colin-trevorrow-leak/

Spoiler

Duel of Fates opens with a pretty vague crawl:

The iron grip of the FIRST ORDER has spread to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Only a few scattered planets remain unoccupied. Traitorous acts are punishable by death.Determined to suffocate a growing unrest, Supreme Leader KYLO REN has silenced all communication between neighboring systems. Led by GENERAL LEIA ORGANA, the Resistance has planned a secret mission to prevent their annihilation and forge a path to freedom...

This opening text isn't too far off from what's going on at the onset of Rise of Skywalker (except for the whole dead speaking thing), but the big difference here is the state of Kylo Ren. According to the description, the moody dark lord has, like Luke Skywalker, vanished. He's off on Mustafar skulking around Darth Vader's castle, "haunted" by the ghost of Luke Skywalker. Ren does find an ancient Sith device. But it's not a wayfinder, like in Rise of Skywalker. It's a "holocron," which leads him to someone named Tor Valum, the Sith teacher of Palpatine.

Both Ren and Rey seem to be trying to put an end to the Sith and the Jedi. It's a story detail that many expected to appear in Episode IX–putting an end to the centuries-old conflict between these warring religions. Rey believes there's still good in Kylo, and Kylo realizes that it was love that clouded Darth Vader's perception.

There are some great highlights in this alleged leaked script, too. Rose Tico and BB-8 get a heist sequence of their own. The Resistance, including Poe and Finn, steal a god damn Star Destroyer. Kylo Ren fights a Darth Vader. And Chewie even pilots an X-Wing.

In the end, it's revealed that Kylo Ren killed Rey's parents. She's not a Palpatine, she's just Rey. The Force Ghosts of Luke, Obi-Wan, and Yoda all assist Rey in her final battle against Ren. The Jedi all try to bring Ben back to the light, but they are unsuccessful. As the leak says, "Ben is extinguished."

I'd see that movie. Thanks for nothing, JJ.

 

[Hewson]

Certainly sounds like it had great potential.

 

[lazarus]

@dazzled

What I mean by a "lack of agency" for Finn in TROS is that he seems like more of a sidekick than a dynamic character who makes his own decisions that impact the story in a meaningful way. He's like a little puppy chasing after Rey for most of the film, and when he does split off from the group later in the film, he's essentially following Jannah's lead to achieve a common goal.

It's not like he had a ton to do in Last Jedi, but at least in that movie he had control of a (somewhat pointless) subplot that was self-contained but showcased him as a character. TFA promised a really interesting free thinker who broke away from convention as a force-sensitive young man with agency, but in TROS he has devolved to the point where he's constantly chasing after Rey and yelling her name. Even his conversations with Poe come back to Rey.

I dunno. Just seems like kind of a wasted character.

Yeah, nailed it.