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Old 09-25-2002, 02:15 AM   #41
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First off i agree with most of what you say. I think it is blown out of proportion. I also think that if we need a tape like this to remind yourselves about child abuse then thats saying something about yourself.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
About it being blown out of proportion, about the number of abuse cases related to foster care, and also whether the mother really is sorry for what she did on that tape. Those are things we really dont know the answer to
What i think and what speculation is are two totally different things. I THINK its blown out of proportion. i think she is sorry by watching her in an interview. And in some cases their is alot worse abuse in foster care. I could go and look for foster abuse and bring a whole article but i have no time. I just THINK the child should remain with her Father or family. I never said she should go back with her mother. Just not into foster care.
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Old 09-25-2002, 02:43 AM   #42
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I agree completely that the fact a tape like that needs to remind us/me of this happening does say a lot. I hate to admit it, but I do try and remove myself from all of it. After I quit my old career, I thought I didnt want to know anymore. I wanted Ostrich Syndrome. I wonder how much of that does exist in the community though. We all care, but how active are we in speaking out against it? Guess we cannot know that.
I think the only real issue we disagree on is what the difference between speculation and what we think of something is.
But semantics can ruin good debate.

Sorry again, if my previous reply came across in the wrong way.
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Old 09-25-2002, 09:32 PM   #43
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My initial reaction to the tape was anger, but after paying closer attention to the replays I don't see much harm being done to the little girl. At least not enough harm to warrant a criminal verdict.

Here's my case, so hear me out:

1) Child, no matter WHO they are, need occasional physical disipline. This doesn't legitimize the beating of a child, it just means that an occassional slap on the face, a spanky of the butt, or a slapping of the wrist, is sometimes necessary. If a child doesn't learn there are severe consequences for their actions, how will they treat authority when they enter the real world.

2) a)When I watch the video I see an agrivated mother who lost her temper. For all we know this doesn't happen on a weekly or even daily occurence. b) She "slaps", not "punches" or "hits" her girl on the "leg", not "head" with an etimidating presence. I know this because there were zero bruises or marks on the girl couple of days after the so-called abuse. c) After the girl jumps to the opposite side of the car (which any child would do if they were caught breaking the rules of the parent), the mother repeatedly points her figure at the little girl as if to scold her.
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Old 09-25-2002, 10:37 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
1) Child, no matter WHO they are, need occasional physical disipline. This doesn't legitimize the beating of a child, it just means that an occassional slap on the face, a spanky of the butt, or a slapping of the wrist, is sometimes necessary. If a child doesn't learn there are severe consequences for their actions, how will they treat authority when they enter the real world.
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Old 09-25-2002, 10:41 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
My initial reaction to the tape was anger, but after paying closer attention to the replays I don't see much harm being done to the little girl. At least not enough harm to warrant a criminal verdict.

Here's my case, so hear me out:

1) Child, no matter WHO they are, need occasional physical disipline. This doesn't legitimize the beating of a child, it just means that an occassional slap on the face, a spanky of the butt, or a slapping of the wrist, is sometimes necessary. If a child doesn't learn there are severe consequences for their actions, how will they treat authority when they enter the real world.

2) a)When I watch the video I see an agrivated mother who lost her temper. For all we know this doesn't happen on a weekly or even daily occurence. b) She "slaps", not "punches" or "hits" her girl on the "leg", not "head" with an etimidating presence. I know this because there were zero bruises or marks on the girl couple of days after the so-called abuse. c) After the girl jumps to the opposite side of the car (which any child would do if they were caught breaking the rules of the parent), the mother repeatedly points her figure at the little girl as if to scold her.
I'm sorry but a slap on the face doesn't cut it with me. My mom slapped my face for discipline and it was pure humiliation. All it did was make me an angry, hostile kid.

There were no bruises or marks on the girl because the incident happened September 13th and mother didn't turn herself in until last week. Slap marks would be long gone.

I agree that every child needs discipline, even an occasional spanking but anything more than that only teaches a child fear, not respect. I certainly had no respect for my own mother when she lost control on me...which occured most of the time not because I had done anything wrong but because of frustrations she had related to her drug problem. As a matter of fact, she would become pretty enraged when she tried to return stolen merchandise to a store and was denied cash...so this story is pretty familiar to me.

Read the following story and you'll see that the mother herself admits to losing control and doing a little more than slapping the little girl's legs.

Whether its an ongoing problem or not, the mother needs some help to figure out why she lost it this time and how to prevent it from happening again.


Quote:
Mother Arraigned in Video Beating
Mon Sep 23, 8:31 PM ET
By TOM COYNE, Associated Press Writer

SOUTH BEND, Ind. (AP) - The woman caught on video beating her 4-year-old daughter in a department store parking lot will probably plead guilty and seek mercy from the court, her lawyer said Monday.

Madelyne Gorman Toogood, 25, was arraigned on a felony charge of battery to a child, and a magistrate entered an innocent plea on her behalf. Her attorney, Steven Rosen, called the plea a formality and later said there was no point in trying to challenge the surveillance videotape in court.

"We will probably enter a guilty plea and throw ourselves on the mercy of the court," he said after the arraignment.

He added: "If a jury has to sit in judgment of this lady, the jury is going to come back with a guilty verdict ... I'm confronted with a videotape that shows Attila the Hun, no question about it."

Earlier Monday, a Probate Court judge ordered that Toogood's daughter, Martha, remain in foster care in the meantime, and he gave child-protection officials two weeks to recommend who should care for the girl.

A doctor examined the girl and found no medical problems and no long-term signs of abuse, authorities said.

Toogood will get a 90-minute supervised visit with her daughter on Tuesday at a safe house. She will only get to see her daughter once or twice a week, Rosen said.

If convicted, Toogood faces up to three years in prison, though her attorney said he would try to strike a deal with prosecutors. She faces a hearing on Oct. 7.

Prosecutor Christopher Toth said the evidence against Toogood was compelling.

"Obviously jail is something you have to seriously consider in a case like this," he said.

Toogood, a mother of three, had no comment as she left court. She remained free on $5,000 bail.

"People might think I'm a monster, but I've been a mother for six years, and no harm has come to my children before this, never," Toogood told CNN earlier Monday. "I'm sorry. That's all I can say."

Toogood told reporters Sunday she hit her daughter in the head and back and pulled her hair but did not punch her. On the video of the Sept. 13 incident, which has been televised nationally, Toogood appears to make punching motions toward her daughter inside a sport utility vehicle.

Rosen said he believed the hitting took place because Martha misbehaved in the store, taking toys out of packages and wandering away, prompting store employees to page Toogood twice.

Toogood said she hopes to be reunited with her daughter and that she, her daughter, and her husband, John, plan to start parenting classes.

She said her two young sons are staying with family.

Toogood said she and her husband have been living in Mishawaka for about six months. She said they are Irish Travelers a nomadic group that police say has been linked to fraudulent home repair.

By some estimates, 7,000 Travelers live in the United States most in Texas and South Carolina about 40,000 live in Ireland and England. The Travelers began migrating to the United States more than 100 years ago.

Rosen said he has told his client not to answer questions about being an Irish Traveler. He said she is proud of her culture.

"She was born in a culture and in their culture the life is to travel from community because the father, the mother had to earn a living," he said.

Charles Smith, director of the St. Joseph County Office of Family and Children, said the fact the family is part of the Irish Travelers will play a role in whether other family members get temporary custody of the girl and whether the Toogoods regain custody.
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Old 09-25-2002, 11:24 PM   #46
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Spanking is one thing, but I agree with Bono's American Wife about slapping on the face; it is not an appropriate method of discipline for a parent towards a much smaller child. And an adult should NEVER strike a child with a fist. The video appears to show her hitting her daughter; the article seems to refute this. Nonetheless, the overall volume of strikes against the child is excessive in my ignorant opinion.

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Old 09-25-2002, 11:36 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
Spanking is one thing, but I agree with Bono's American Wife about slapping on the face; it is not an appropriate method of discipline for a parent towards a much smaller child. And an adult should NEVER strike a child with a fist. The video appears to show her hitting her daughter; the article seems to refute this. Nonetheless, the overall volume of strikes against the child is excessive in my ignorant opinion.
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Old 09-26-2002, 07:04 PM   #48
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Maybe I'm sympathetic to the mother, because I know that I grew up to be a very sensitive, straightlaced man, and I was slapped, smacked, and scolded at several times during my childhood.

My question to everyone who believes her daughter should be put in a foster home is this: If you're mother, whom you loved and felt connected to more than any other person, scolded you severely just once or twice in your early childhood, was caught on tape (just once) performing these acts, would you have more resentment toward your own mother, or would you resent the society that broke you apart forever?
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Old 09-26-2002, 08:02 PM   #49
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I already explained myself in one of my previous replies in this post about my experience, so I would resent my mother more than society if she didnt get a handle on her temper as needed. Thats my answer.
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Old 09-26-2002, 08:55 PM   #50
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The problem with this discussion is that most of us are assuming that the mother is abussive. This hasn't been proven. So we should end the discussion right now.

None of us know the key facts of the situation, so we aren't at liberty to form well-rounded opinions.

I happen to side with the mother, because of the abuse SHE has taken from the media and people like those in this forum. Just because there's a possibility that she's insane doesn't mean she IS insane. Remember that old idea: "Innocent until proven guilty".

I think most of you are jumpy to conclusions due to the dramatic nature of the subject.
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Old 09-26-2002, 09:14 PM   #51
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to answer your previous post, yes, i would resent her. i think there are better ways to convey your displeasure with a child's behaviour. i know my view on this has a lot to do with the way i was raised (i was only spanked once in my life. i joke about being the perfect child, but i was only spanked once because i always would get a time-out instead.) where my mom (she did the disciplining because my dad was at work) didn't believe in spanking. she felt it was better to talk it out.

for example, let's say (true story) i wrote on the living room wall with crayon. instead of spanking me, she'd sit me in time-out for, say, 15 minutes. i'd sit on a chair in the living room (usually staring at the clock) and was told to think about what i did. after that, my mom and i would sit and talk about what i did, and how it was wrong. i'd usually have to do something in return to rectify it, as well. if i made a mess, i'd have to clean it up. if it wasn't possible (or in this case i doubt my mom would've wanted a three year old scrubbing the wall) i'd have to give up tv/play time, or something like that.

also, i hear people who condone spanking say that the spanking itself wasn't really the punishment, as the pain quickly went away, but the fear of when it would come. i don't think fear should be the right way to feel about your parents. i couldn't imagine ever wanting to have my child fear me. to me, it just seems so harsh. while i would never spank my kids, i do respect those who would, though.
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