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Old 03-30-2002, 06:46 PM   #61
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Originally posted by S|aney:

Lemonite,

I know how you feel about "cheerleaders", but I must commend you on your posts here. You've managed to nail every point that I would have pointed out. You have obviously done your homework with regards to the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. If everyone here would carefully and responsibly study that regions history, they would cleary know the truth about what an evil man Yasser Arafat is.
Thank you for the unexpected concordance, I just get sad when I see people almost acting naive to what is really out there.. At times in the name of 'Sensitivity', other times in the vain of Political Correctness.. When the true reality is much more bare, much more raw and at times more twisted than what one would initially expect. Though my writings may inflame at times, I do feel that it is because various issues are never 'couched' out of my typewritten hands.... Anyways.. There's a really good book out there which I intend to read about the History of this region that is on all the 'Must Read' lists, Ack.. I forget what the name of it is..

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Old 03-30-2002, 06:54 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
in the vain of Political Correctness..
No, the feelings you've expressed here go far beyond the boundaries of political correctness; they cross the line of human decency. It is one thing to hate Mr. Arafat--it is quite another to hate the Palistinian people (a hatred that you may deny, but which is clear in your posts.)

p.s. The "vain"? A humorous misspelling, when one considers the source.

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Old 03-30-2002, 07:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
ladywithspinninghead,

The level of your ignorance about Arafat is staggering. Literally staggering. I thought the media here in the U.S. was bad but the Canadian media must be far and away the worst in the world. That, or you are not at all the avid media follower you claim to be.

You're actually surprised that Arafat says one thing to the Western media and another to the Arabic world and the Palestinian people? My God, what rock have you been hiding under for all of your life?
You doubt that Arafat has ties to terrorist groups?
MAP

haha! I think I'd find all of this rather offensive if I didn't find it absolutely hilarious!!!!!!!!!
What rock have I been living in? Hmmm, let's see I've lived in Asia, North America and Europe for the past 7 years....I don't just read the Canadian papers (we only have one decent national paper) - I do read the Indpendent, the Guardian, Le Monde, Le Figaro, Le Devoir papers on a regular basis (it's pretty quiet where I work and they encourage us to read in the meantime). I guess my problem is that I've only been reading the "left-of-centre" papers where they happen to be a little bit softer on the Palestinians than the other papers...

Furthermore, you can talk about my ignorance ad nauseum but I think if you went back to my original post, I was actually asking for help regarding Arafat's exact status. This plea for further information has been consistent throughout my posts here - instead of going on about my ignorance (which I professed myself), why don't you supply me with the evidence there Doc?

And yes, I'm well aware that some of the suicide attacks are perpetrated by factions directly related to Arafat's military/political wing but does that necessarily mean that Arafat has the capability to actually rein in the terrorists??!?!
I mean, look at the inconsistencies here....Some people here say that Arafat is merely a figurehead and doesn't have any real authority in the region but at the same time they say it's a good thing that Israel is destroying his compound. Well what the *#$ is that about? What the hell will that accomplish?
If that's the case, the raids in Ramallah are merely Israel flexing its muscles, fearmongering and further humiliating the Palestinians. I really don't see the point in that.

If however, Arafat really is "pulling the strings" (as most here tend to believe) and not only is he turning a blind eye to it, but he's actually encouraging it, then yes, I'm all for eradicating the terrorist infrastructure.

But it seems to me no one in this thread can really agree on Arafat's exact measure of influence amongst the Palestinian nation and until we can, I will continue to keep my ears and eyes open.....
That's hardly ignorance my friend - it's my willingness to keep an open mind until I discover the truth....

So sorry if that offends you.


p.s.: And next time, you may want to tone it down a bit - it really doesn't become someone who knows better.
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Old 03-30-2002, 07:33 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:


the Syrians refuse to let Arafat speak at a conference of Arabic nations
MAP


by the way, that was the Lebanese, not the Syrians....
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Old 03-30-2002, 07:36 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by S|aney:

If everyone here would carefully and responsibly study that regions history, they would cleary know the truth about what an evil man Yasser Arafat is.

Sheesh people, that was the whole intention of this thread for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to know - I wanted people to fill me in....I wanted to be enlightened - not bloody insulted, okay?

I've been scouring other sources - this was one of many - remind me to never do it again - holy crap....

Happy Easter to you too...
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Old 03-30-2002, 07:43 PM   #66
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Craig,

Thanks for the article - that group that claimed responsibility - the one that's part of Arafat's military wing - has only been really emerging in the scene in the past couple of weeks. The article fails to mention that - this isn't a group, like Hamas, that has been perpetrating most of the attacks in recent months.
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Old 03-30-2002, 08:05 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
It is one thing to hate Mr. Arafat--it is quite another to hate the Palistinian people (a hatred that you may deny, but which is clear in your posts.)

I do not hate anyone or anything, I do call people things as I feel they are, In fact I have no feeling whatsoever to the Palestinians.. That was news to me, However that does not mean that I do not condemn them for what they are doing with their Suicide Bombing Attacks.. No Hatred.. I don't even 'Hate' Mr. Arafat.. excuse me, 'Chairman Arafat', but don't get me wrong, I do not in the least feel he is a good and well intentioned man as I have stated evidenced in his dealings with this entire situation.. I will say it Made Me Sick to see them (Among Others) 'Cheering with Vigor' in the streets the News of the Two Trade Towers Collapsing back on Sep 11th.

I don't even hate liberals.. nor would I ever really call Liberalism 'Evil' as I have seen people call Conservatism.. I will disagree with their beliefs or better philosophy until the end of the earth because I fundamentally feel they are misguided and wrong, but I would never say I Hate a Liberal.. Hate is a very strong word, One which I do not identify with... However you may wish to try and twist and turn words of mine into such.

God Bless America,
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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-30-2002).]
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Old 03-30-2002, 08:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

Sheesh people, that was the whole intention of this thread for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to know - I wanted people to fill me in....I wanted to be enlightened - not bloody insulted, okay?
Your intention was to be enlightened???

Here's what you stated:

Quote:

That's absolutely ridiculous - Arafat himself isn't sending in these troops! It's not like his army/police are behind the attacks in Israel.


... Gawd, that Sharon is a bastard...he's now deemed Arafat an "enemy" and Christianne Amanpour said that when he states comments like that, it basically gives the Israeli army a license to kill.
IT IS A FACT that Arafat is a terrorist.
IT IS A FACT that Sharon is a war hero.

But instead, it sounds like you already had your mind made up!

No hard feelings! Happy Easter to you too!



[This message has been edited by S|aney (edited 03-30-2002).]
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Old 03-30-2002, 08:33 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by S|aney:
IT IS A FACT that Sharon is a war hero.

um, check your facts on that one
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Old 03-30-2002, 08:41 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
um, check your facts on that one
Already have, but thanks for your concern.
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Old 03-30-2002, 09:09 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by S|aney:
IT IS A FACT that Arafat is a terrorist.
IT IS A FACT that Sharon is a war hero.


LOL!

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Old 03-30-2002, 09:18 PM   #72
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"Just an addendum in the middle of this post.. the Palestinians are a band of people who produce nothing, they have no commercial value, no 'industrial' practices.. They produce nothing, They are just there.. Ok.. Back to the post."


--This is clearly a statement filled with hate. This guy seems to be of the mentality that Palestinians are useless. i.e if they all died, were killed, ethnically cleansed, pushed into the sea, then its no biggie.

And supposing that "they have no commercial value" what exactly is the problem with that. Why does it bother you? Do humans exist to make a profit.


"If the Arab countries cared so much for Palestine why don't they ante up a little land and give them a country. Of all the land considered the Middle East, Israel occupies 1/10 of 1%."

--So if someone came and stole your car, we should blame a friend of yours who is saddened that your car was stolen, for not providing you with their car. The person who stole your car should return the car and be punished for having stole the car.
Some of that 1% of land that Israel occupies does not belong to them

And I do feel for the Palestinians but if their leader, Mr Arafat, had accepted the Camp David agreement, they would have their state by now and would no longer be under Israeli occupation. But he had to ask for the right of return which is something he knows Israel will never agree to.

--Arafat has every right to ask for the right to return.

IT IS A FACT that Arafat is a terrorist.
IT IS A FACT that Sharon is a war hero.


--IT IS A FACT that Sharon is a WAR CRIMINAL.
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Old 03-30-2002, 09:45 PM   #73
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I personally find Sharon's attitude distasteful. I am very suspicious about him. Something is not right there. Who is pulling his strings?
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Old 03-30-2002, 09:56 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by nintendan:


--So if someone came and stole your car, we should blame a friend of yours who is saddened that your car was stolen, for not providing you with their car. The person who stole your car should return the car and be punished for having stole the car.
Some of that 1% of land that Israel occupies does not belong to them

And I do feel for the Palestinians but if their leader, Mr Arafat, had accepted the Camp David agreement, they would have their state by now and would no longer be under Israeli occupation. But he had to ask for the right of return which is something he knows Israel will never agree to.

--Arafat has every right to ask for the right to return.

At what point in history did that land belong to the Palestinians? Can you give me any dates? Point it out on a map? As a matter of fact, prior to the current state of Israel, it was under British rule, and before that, Jordanian rule. Furthermore, Jordan has since recognized Israel's right to exist. If anyone has a right to that land, it would be Jordan.

How can the Palestinians be under Israeli occupation? That's like saying that Californians are under U.S. occupation. But I guess you are right though. Israeli's are occupying Israel. Palestinians are living in Israel, not vice versa. In the 1800's that land had been abandoned and become desolate. Nobody really wanted to develop it. So, the Jews began to migrate back and rebuild and redevelop it themselves. After building successful businesses and industries, many Arabs began to migrate to this land to take advantage of the many employment opportunities. Can you show me where the Jews were opposed to this diversification? To the contrary, they were quite welcoming. It wasn't until 1948 when Jews and Arabs had the same opportunity for statehood that this became a problem for the Arab community.

Why should Israel be punished for occupying their own land? It's interesting that we Americans can fight the war on terrorism, but anyone else defending themselves have no justification.

Also, it is a fact that Sharon is a decorated war veteran. Regardless of your opinions of him, he has not committed any crimes or warcrimes that you can clearly and distinctly point out.

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Old 03-31-2002, 12:10 AM   #75
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was getting fed up with no other countries stepping up to the plate and speaking out on Israel's behalf. Finally, Collin Powell yesterday, and today Bush. Where's the telethons, and the sympathy from the other nation's of the world for the terrorism Israel has been going through? 30 yrs ago they could have brought all the Palestinians to our country, there are only 750,000 people. This will never work, and it's about time the United Nations steps in and finds a country for those Palestinian people. They have been refugees since 1948. Why is Israel just left to fend for itself in this? It happened to us, and other nations all jumped in to help. To have the Israelis have to talk to that Yassar Arafat about anything was ridiculous. If it's ok for us to go to Afganistan and wage war, its ok for Israel to defend itself. They have shown tremendous patience, and its about time.

[This message has been edited by U2live (edited 03-30-2002).]
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Old 03-31-2002, 01:26 AM   #76
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ladywithspinninghead,

Thank you for pointing out my Syria/Lebanon blunder.
It's nice that you've travelled the world a bit, but truly unfortunate that you spent the duration of your travels with an enormous boulder on your head.

MAP
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Old 03-31-2002, 03:20 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:

I also find interesting that many people here have said that Arafat will say one thing in English but another thing in Arabic - that's the first I hear of that and I'm an avid reader of the newspapers, news sites, etc. Could someone please give me a credible source (article or otherwise) regarding this?
If this really is true, well then I won't be so willing to defend Arafat....
ladywithspinninghead,

The level of your ignorance about Arafat is staggering. Literally staggering. I thought the media here in the U.S. was bad but the Canadian media must be far and away the worst in the world. That, or you are not at all the avid media follower you claim to be.

You're actually surprised that Arafat says one thing to the Western media and another to the Arabic world and the Palestinian people? My God, what rock have you been hiding under for all of your life?
You doubt that Arafat has ties to terrorist groups? Even Arafat acknowledges that he does. That must be one hell of a rock over your head that you call home.
You consider Arafat a reasonable man, a man of peace merely because he says he is?????????????? If you're that naive I have a bridge I can sell you but cheap.
Do you take that idiot Sharon at his word? Then why Arafat?
You don't think America would deal with a known terrorist? Would this be the same America that has had dealings with nearly every despot on earth? Except, bizarrely, Castro?

What frustrates me to the point of rage about the Middle East is that for the duration of my life (27 years) there's been talk of "Peace in the Middle East" and it's all an elaborate charade put on for the benefit of the woefully ignorant, the naive and the merely stupid.
The Israeli government claims that it wants peace but they'll only accept a peace that gives the Palestinian people nothing. A peace where the Palestinians are a cowed and groveling people.
The Palestinian authority and other terrorist groups insist publically that all they want is peace and their own state. But they've been offered both and refused them. Lemonite, LEMONITE of all the idiots of the world was actually right about that. Arafat was offered a peace plan during the Clinton years that would have given the Palestinians 97% of the land they are publically demanding and their own state. I'm reasonable sure that a majority of the Palestinian people would have agreed to that deal but they never got a chance. Arafat turned it down.
Now we have this mockery of a peace process going on. And what happens? The Saudis propose a plan similar to the one brockered during the Clinton administration. And KABLOOIE! Bombs start going off like mad, the Syrians refuse to let Arafat speak at a conference of Arabic nations and Arafat starts insisting he wants martyrdom. Why?Because the powers that be DON'T want peace with Israel. They want Israel destroyed.

Peace process my ass.

MAP

p.s.- If Israel really wanted to kill Arafat they could do it in about five minutes. Room to room fighting to kill Arafat my ass. They'd just bomb the facility from the skies.
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Old 03-31-2002, 03:20 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bbug:
Finally, yeah, your screening process would be wrong. It's a bad idea because instead of focusing on suspicious behaviour, license irregularities, etc, you're saying you'd find it better to single out people based on race. So, Lemonite, if Timothy McVeigh had wanted to rent your cropduster, buy fertilizer from you, rent your truck, etc, and he's a white guy with a crew cut who spent time in the military, how does your screening process hold up? Are you gonna "save my life" then, oh glorious patriot? It's inherently flawed.
The 7-11 story is just a coincidence.. But interesting none the less... Because there were other stories I heard of such related incidents.. If you wish to dismiss it then all the better for you.. I won't be offended.

No.. It's not inherently flawed.. With Evidence of Atta and other Hijackers inquiring about 'CropDusters', Just the fact that someone similar to Atta would be inquiring is suspicious enough.. Sadly it may boil down to ethnicity... But Don't Blame Me on that one.. blame the Terrorists. It's no wrong action on my part to follow up on what may turn out to be something bad brewing (In regards to my Make Believe Crop Dusting Company).. It's just common sense... Just following what our president said to do.. Keep my eyes out. For anyone, or anything suspicious.. It just happens that in this case All the hijackers were of Arab descent.. Profile or No Profile, It's the truth.

If you want, in another argument we can bring up further screening practices or what not.. But that's not the issue here, and you know it isn't...

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Old 03-31-2002, 08:14 AM   #79
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Quote:
Witnesses said the restaurant was crowded at the time of the blast. The building was severely damaged in the explosion, and a large hole could be seen in its roof.

Both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the terror attack. Hamas is a Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist group that has been labeled by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization. Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a militant group dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel.

It was the fifth such attack in Israel since the beginning of the Passover holiday Wednesday night. The attacks have killed at least 40 Israelis and wounded more than 100. In the most deadly strike, a suicide bombing in the Israeli coastal town of Netanya claimed 22 lives.
The part that gets me here, is the line:
Quote:
Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a militant group dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel.
These people don't want truce, or their own land next to Isreal. They want a fight to the death.

What do you do about that?

Give it to them?

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Old 03-31-2002, 08:28 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by S|aney:
Regardless of your opinions of him, he has not committed any crimes or warcrimes that you can clearly and distinctly point out.

In 1982 Sharon was Israeli defence minister and was removed from this office after an Israeli tribunal found him indirectly responsible for the massacre of thousands of Palestinian and Lebanese citizens in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
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