Wtf is going on in Israel today???????

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by Bbug:
the Catholicism statement is significant because according to the catholic faith every human being is created in God's image and is therefore of worth and that no one should be assigned a value based on their "Usefulness,"

No it is not.. Significant here, It has no relevance because I was not stating such.. Just get back to the issue.

Anyways I am still awaiting some evidence to refute my claim that as a 'nation' if you want to so call them that.. No.. the 'Gathering' of People.. The Palestinians are more than 'Just There'.. If it is such a big issue to everyone in this thread to use the last 9 or 10 posts on it.. then give it some worthlessness.. Otherwise, I could have stated the same thing in less inflammatory terms and gotten the same thing across without a blink of an eye because outside of a 'God Loves Us All and Creates us All in His Image, with Our Own Self Worth', There is nothing physical, tangible to say I am wrong.. Just a bunch of Left Wing Criticism.. Like I said.. Food for Thought.. Just imagine if I had called them a 'Gang'.. Oh Dear..

God Bless America,
L.Unplugged



[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-29-2002).]

[lady lemonade]

Originally posted by *Ally*:
i'm not really clear on this entire situation, ladyw/spinninghead, but i think that some people (ie, the israelis) are accusing arafat of knowing a lot more about the terrorist attacks than he claims.... apparently, they say that he might be in on the whole thing.
it's a horrible situation over there. there's no solution in sight.... *sigh*

There's also the fact that Arafat keeps sending 2 completely different messages: one directed at the Palestinian population and one intented for the rest of the world. When he talks in English, he's saying how he is supporting peace and only wants "freedom for his people," the creation of a Palestinian state.
However, the message he sends to Palestininans is one of hatred towards Isrealis, encouraging them to keep fighting the occupation in any way they can, including the use of suicide bombers. I saw him on tv in his speech he gave on Palestinian tv saying that "Isrealis sell the organs of Palestinian children" and "are bombarding Palestinian with nuclear waste." If this is not meant to promote war and hatred, I don't know what is. To think that this man, who is behind the murder of the Israeli athletes in Munich, received the Nobel Peace Prize is troubling. Sharon is no angel but if he belongs in a cell with Milosevic, so does Arafat.
I think he's a corrupt and delusional old man who has been playing this double game so long he's not in control of it anymore. There might have been a time where he could have stopped the violence but maybe he wasn't willing to take the risk of being at odds with the extremists groups. The Camp David accord came really close to solving the conflict, maybe the Saudi plan will work out somehow, who knows...
I think that right now the problem is with the extremist groups. Those are organization whose sole purpose is the destruction of the state of Israel. I was reading an interview in which a high ranking member of the Hamas (and a doctor, no less), was saying that the Holocaust never happened, that it is just an excuse for Jews to come and murder Palestinan women and children. They believe that the only solution is the complete removal of all Jews and infidels from Arab land. They use poor, hopeless young men and women to perform the suicide-bombings that will lead them, they believe, to the destruction of Israel. By associating himself with these people, Arafat lost all his credibility as a leader and is actually in big part responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians...

Just my 0.02 cents

[This message has been edited by lady lemonade (edited 03-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by lady lemonade (edited 03-29-2002).]

[Bbug]

Look, if you've read ANYTHING by Pope John Paul II or know ANYTHING about the Church's social justice teaching, you know what I mean. It's not a left-wing thing. Have you ever taken a Catholic Studies class? Listened to a homily? Read anything about the social justice teaching of the Church? Picked up a copy of the Catechism? Consider doing it, before you make a complete fool of yourself.
Secondly, I KNOW the terrorist attacks in Israel are horrible. But the force they are using seems too much to combat this. If anything, they are fueling the fire for people who want to recruit kids into suicide-bombing, etc. It's a horrible situation and it's gone on too long, and I don't see it ending anytime soon.
Your comment about the kid and the 7-11 guy moving...grow up. Do they have to file a report with the Lemonite Family before they decide to relocate somewhere else? No. I had to move suddenly when an airforce base near my house closed as a kid. My godmother's kids moved home to be near her and care for her, after her husband died suddenly. So, yeah, their kids transferred schools in a hurry. They had a messy work and housing situation. It's not ideal, but it happens all the time, every day, to lots of nice people. Even (gasp) to conservatives like yourself! If you carry around a prejudice about every Arab-looking person you see, you are INCREDIBLY narrow-minded. I have friends from Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. These people are not here to threaten you or your way of life, they are here to get an education, succeed in business, and generally that whole "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" thing that ALL americans value.

[ladywithspinninghead]

I just saw a U2 tribute band tonight - very cool indeed!

First thing I did when I came home - turned on the telly to see if Mr Arafat is still alive....breathed a sigh of relief...can go to bed now..........G'nite y'all!

p.s.: Hi Anitram - in Ottawa actually!

[Lilly]

******UPDATE******

There's room to room fighting withing Arafat's compound. Meaning the Israeli soldiers are about to capture/kill him. Interesting indeed.

------------------
I will not expose the ignorance of the faculty.

[ladywithspinninghead]

Interesting? It's sick......absolutely sick....

If something happens to Arafat, things will spiral more out of control than they are now....It will be anarchic over there! Who the hell will then have the credibility and the legitimacy to reign in the terrorists or at least to ask they cease their activities....

Jaysus H...how could they have elected a man (Sharon) responsible for the murder of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in the camps back in '82....

I'd love to see him sharing a cell with Mr Milosevic at the Hague...

[sulawesigirl4]

I can't say I have a whole lot of respect for either Sharon or Arafat.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by chain:
80s, You are right, here in the states we do not get complete coverage of Middle East events. Europeans are more sympathetic to Arafat and the Palestinians than most Americans and our government. We react to reported atrocities, but do we get all the information to clearly label one side right and the other wrong? I don’t think so.
chain
[This message has been edited by chain (edited 03-29-2002).]

Actually, I meant to say "I do know"..ooops...I'll edit it now. However, that is not to say I support Sharon, either.
I liked Rabin.

[STING2]

It should be pointed out that there is a big difference between Israels response which targets terrorist and their leaders compared to Palestinian terror attacks which target innocent civilians and foreigners on tour. What happened two nights ago is sick!

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by Bbug:
Look, if you've read ANYTHING by Pope John Paul II or know ANYTHING about the Church's social justice teaching, you know what I mean. It's not a left-wing thing. Have you ever taken a Catholic Studies class? Listened to a homily? Read anything about the social justice teaching of the Church? Picked up a copy of the Catechism? Consider doing it, before you make a complete fool of yourself.
Secondly, I KNOW the terrorist attacks in Israel are horrible. But the force they are using seems too much to combat this. If anything, they are fueling the fire for people who want to recruit kids into suicide-bombing, etc. It's a horrible situation and it's gone on too long, and I don't see it ending anytime soon.
Your comment about the kid and the 7-11 guy moving...grow up. Do they have to file a report with the Lemonite Family before they decide to relocate somewhere else? No. I had to move suddenly when an airforce base near my house closed as a kid. My godmother's kids moved home to be near her and care for her, after her husband died suddenly. So, yeah, their kids transferred schools in a hurry. They had a messy work and housing situation. It's not ideal, but it happens all the time, every day, to lots of nice people. Even (gasp) to conservatives like yourself! If you carry around a prejudice about every Arab-looking person you see, you are INCREDIBLY narrow-minded. I have friends from Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. These people are not here to threaten you or your way of life, they are here to get an education, succeed in business, and generally that whole "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" thing that ALL americans value.

Again, I'm still not sure where you're coming from by pulling in Catholic Teachings.. I told you why it was not relevant, that I was not 'Equating the Palestinians with Dirt'.. That was a misinterpretation by one person that started off a whole offshoot of this thread.. It looks poorly on you that you fail to understand this.. Even as I have written it no less than Five Times... Again, I am still awaiting a reason to make that 'addendum' a factually wrong statement, If it is going to be such a big deal...

Oh My Gosh, I can't believe you, Dismissing again, what was just an interesting story.. The 7-11 Story.. Of course it may have been legit, in fact I'm sure there was some 'real' reason, but I don't know it, and no one around town knows it, and to the eye of the person who just happens to see it, It's a Suspicious if not interesting thing (Regardless of whether there was a private Reason).. Geezus.. That's all that was.. I was just relating what our President told us to look out for.. As if say an Arab went to (If i owned One) my Crop Dusting Plane Sales Office.. I'm not going to lie to you, I'm going to spend extra time checking him out.. And Kid, It may save your life, Unless you want to be walking down the street and have a nice bucket of Cyanide Dropped on your head. If you have read my posts in the past, You will have seen that I have condemned Racial Profiling, but not common sense..

But Let's get back to the Issue at Hand.. Arafat and Israel...

Lady.. I've been giving this more thought, and I'm starting to feel that Arafat may be killed on an 'inside' job and blamed on the Israelis.. Elevating him to that 'Martyr' status you were referring to. Ack.. Well.. We'll see..

God Bless America,
L.Unplugged



[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-30-2002).]

[V Nura]

Arafat and Sharon are BOTH terroists.


Sharon is a war criminal in 1996 had he gone to britain, they would have arrested him. Arafat, is dealign with terrorists in private, and claims to aid peace in public. The Reason the US deal with arafat is becuase he's the only game in town, he's the palestinian elected leader. And if anyone takes his place..they will be MUCH more radical.

We have two leaders who I honestly feel..dont value peace. And if you don't value peace, how can you achieve it?

[anitram]

Originally posted by Lemonite:
Anitram.. Have you made sure to go to confession before Easter.. Just a friendly Reminder.

You'll be glad to know I didn't need a snarky reminder, as I've done so prior to Palm Sunday.

And I'm taking the advice several people on this thread have given, to simply not comment on your posts. You've offended people, and you still, after 52 posts, don't understand why. I still find it troubling and sad, but I'm accepting that this is the way it'll end.

[new orleans]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:
Or rather the occupied territories - sorry....

I just don't get it - someone please explain this to me.....

The suicide attacks in Israel are horrendous, that's for sure - no one would argue otherwise, I'm sure....

but is the Israeli response to the suicide attacks not only disproportionate but are they even logical???????????
The U.S. administration (I've lost total respect for them this morning) is practically justifying Israeli attacks on Arafat's home/headquarters/office in Ramallah today as "defending themselves". What the &#$&#$????

Some crazed, fanatical attackers in Palestine are blowing themselves up in Israel and the way to correct this is to destroy the headquarters of that "country" ?!?! (for lack of a better word)

That's absolutely ridiculous - Arafat himself isn't sending in these troops! It's not like his army/police are behind the attacks in Israel. There will always be fanatics and one administration can't be held responsible for these groups actions!
Isn't that tantamount to attacking Whitehall because Richard Reid is British?!?!

Now, someone correct me if I'm wrong.....that's why I'm posting this - I don't really believe that Arafat has inside knowledge of these attacks prior to their occurring so attacking him just seems illogical - it won't accomplish anything. It just seems like Israel wants to (further) humiliate Arafat and his people by flexing its muscles.....this is so counterproductive, it's not funny. It's this Palestinian humiliation which leads one to the point where they don't see the point in living anymore...I'm so angry right now, I can't even think straight...sorry if this post was convoluted - my thoughts are all over the place. I'm absolutely seething with rage right now, seeing those photos on CNN!!

Gawd, that Sharon is a bastard...he's now deemed Arafat an "enemy" and Christianne Amanpour said that when he states comments like that, it basically gives the Israeli army a license to kill.

God, they better not harm him......

[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 03-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 03-29-2002).]

Let's see. The Palestinian terrorist group Hamas sends in a suicide bomber almost daily to kill innocent civilians, usually teenagers and children and Israel is suppose to do what? Nothing? At least when Israel retaliates it's against military targets. Do civilians get killed from this retaliation? Yes, but they are not the targets. They ares the targets when Hamas attacks. Israel does not start this killing Hamas does. But when Israel decides to end it, Hamas better put on their Nike's and run like hell. When Arafat speaks in English he speaks of peace and halt the bombing. A half hour later while speaking to his people in Arablic, he speaks of the complete destruction of Israel. The Arabs goal is to push Israel into the sea. If the Arab countries cared so much for Palestine why don't they ante up a little land and give them a country. Of all the land considered the Middle East, Israel occupies 1/10 of 1%. Not much. The Arab countries could care less about Palestine they just use this as a bullshit reason to destroy Israel.

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by anitram:
You've offended people, and you still, after 52 posts, don't understand why. I still find it troubling and sad.

I do understand why, But I just don't agree with it, I just try and let people know where I am coming from, To show that their conclusions they have drawn are inaccurate.. I would know as I am the one who made the initial statement.. But to each their own end, People can misguide themselves if they wish.
People seem to take 'Being Inflamed', or a statement 'Chapping Their Ass', as equaling that the statement is wrong. My statement may have inflamed those who mistook it in a way I did not intend.. That is to no one's fault (But led to many Wasted Posts Trying to Justify The Real Meaning which No One Wanted to Know), However it does not take away any truth or value of truth from the statement..

Never snarky against a fellow human being, Just looking out for you.. People do forget.

God Bless America,
L.Unplugged

[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-30-2002).]

[ladywithspinninghead]

Originally posted by new orleans:
Let's see. The Palestinian terrorist group Hamas sends in a suicide bomber almost daily to kill innocent civilians, usually teenagers and children and Israel is suppose to do what? Nothing? At least when Israel retaliates it's against military targets. Do civilians get killed from this retaliation? Yes, but they are not the targets. They ares the targets when Hamas attacks. Israel does not start this killing Hamas does. But when Israel decides to end it, Hamas better put on their Nike's and run like hell. When Arafat speaks in English he speaks of peace and halt the bombing. A half hour later while speaking to his people in Arablic, he speaks of the complete destruction of Israel. The Arabs goal is to push Israel into the sea. If the Arab countries cared so much for Palestine why don't they ante up a little land and give them a country. Of all the land considered the Middle East, Israel occupies 1/10 of 1%. Not much. The Arab countries could care less about Palestine they just use this as a bullshit reason to destroy Israel.

Yeah, somewhat interesting....a lot of people have been subscribing to this view.

But I don't....

If there are suicide attackers because they all want to see the destruction of Israel, how can one possibly explain the ceasefire (however tenuous) that existed between the Palestinians and Israelites for a few years?

It's that old chicken and egg argument all over again - do you think suicide attackers are going into Israel and blowing themselves up willy-nilly, with no motive whatsoever?
Or do you not think for one moment that some of these people are driven to it???
I'm not trying to justify their behaviour but perhaps shed light....
Kofi Annan himself said of the Palestinian plight: "it is one of the most brutal oppressions".
These people are living in destitude - with no hope. Do you not think that Sharon's policies are partly responsible for the suicide attacks???

I also find interesting that many people here have said that Arafat will say one thing in English but another thing in Arabic - that's the first I hear of that and I'm an avid reader of the newspapers, news sites, etc. Could someone please give me a credible source (article or otherwise) regarding this?

If this really is true, well then I won't be so willing to defend Arafat....

[The Wanderer]

yes, it's always been so, I've read and heard this many times, I'll try to find some "evidence" for you, but Arafat has one language for his own people, and one for the rest of the world -- and the two rarely coincide

[Bbug]

The 7-11 story is stupid, Lemonite. You're thinking every single person of Arab descent in this country is involved in some conspiracy to somehow undermine your way of life. Someone in your hometown moved without your knowing why. Horror of horrors! Why would they tell you? You didn't even know them and you're not privy to their personal affairs. That's pure conjecture on your part, and you know it.
Finally, yeah, your screening process would be wrong. It's a bad idea because instead of focusing on suspicious behaviour, license irregularities, etc, you're saying you'd find it better to single out people based on race. So, Lemonite, if Timothy McVeigh had wanted to rent your cropduster, buy fertilizer from you, rent your truck, etc, and he's a white guy with a crew cut who spent time in the military, how does your screening process hold up? Are you gonna "save my life" then, oh glorious patriot? It's inherently flawed.

[lady lemonade]

Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:
Yeah, somewhat interesting....a lot of people have been subscribing to this view.

But I don't....

If there are suicide attackers because they all want to see the destruction of Israel, how can one possibly explain the ceasefire (however tenuous) that existed between the Palestinians and Israelites for a few years?

It's that old chicken and egg argument all over again - do you think suicide attackers are going into Israel and blowing themselves up willy-nilly, with no motive whatsoever?
Or do you not think for one moment that some of these people are driven to it???
I'm not trying to justify their behaviour but perhaps shed light....
Kofi Annan himself said of the Palestinian plight: "it is one of the most brutal oppressions".
These people are living in destitude - with no hope. Do you not think that Sharon's policies are partly responsible for the suicide attacks???

I also find interesting that many people here have said that Arafat will say one thing in English but another thing in Arabic - that's the first I hear of that and I'm an avid reader of the newspapers, news sites, etc. Could someone please give me a credible source (article or otherwise) regarding this?

If this really is true, well then I won't be so willing to defend Arafat....

Well, for one I saw with my own two eyes on Canadian and French tv saying those things in Arabic. I don't understand Arabic but I doubt they would show a false translation on national tv given that there's bound to be people who understand arabic watching it. The excerpts were taken from Palestinian television I believe. I don't have time to dig in to find the articles but here's one I found about the possible weapons deal he might have struck with Iran:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...eut/index.html

Okay, so they are citing unidentified US and Israeli sources but I think there might be some truth to it. And I do feel for the Palestinians but if their leader, Mr Arafat, had accepted the Camp David agreement, they would have their state by now and would no longer be under Israeli occupation. But he had to ask for the right of return which is something he knows Israel will never agree to. Letting 3 millions of refugees back into the country would be the end of Israel as a Jewish state which is unacceptable. There has to be concessions made on BOTH sides and I don't think either Arafat or Sharon are willing to make those sacrifices, especially Arafat who has had more than enough time to reign in the violence since the Oslo accord in the early 90s. The US and the Isrealis have repeatedly asked him to speak to the Palestinian and to arrest terrorists but he has been unwilling to do so. Obviously it's too late for that now, seeing as he is being held in a basement room of his compound now with no electricity. Rabin and Barrach gave him a chance but it's time for a new leader to step up to the challenge...

[The Wanderer]

the latest...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Mar30.html

[S|aney]

Lemonite,

I know how you feel about "cheerleaders", but I must commend you on your posts here. You've managed to nail every point that I would have pointed out. You have obviously done your homework with regards to the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. If everyone here would carefully and responsibly study that regions history, they would cleary know the truth about what an evil man Yasser Arafat is.