William Bennett Speaks "Hypothetically" About Crime

[MrsSpringsteen]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/30/bennett.comments/index.html

Hypothetically speaking Bill, your words are very poorly chosen and highly inappropriate, and that's being kind

"This is precisely the kind of insensitive, hurtful and ignorant rhetoric that Americans have grown tired of," said Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Illinois.

Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.

"That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said."

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I feel sick to my stomach.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I feel sick to my stomach too. Why would a human being ever say something like that?

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I believe it is called racism.

 

[DrTeeth]

This will surely make black people such as the ones in New Orleans feel even more loved than they do now.

 

[pax]

I am so embarrassed right now.

 

[Irvine511]

i really enjoy these slips of the tongues -- i don't think he misspoke, i think he was just being honest, inadvertantly, and i do think that every now and again we do get a sense of how rich, white, privileged, powerful, conservative, political people view the world -- we saw it with Trent Lott, with Barbara Bush, and now with "morals czar" Bill Bennett.

it's not that they hate black people; it's just that if you're black, you're not a person to them.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

i really enjoy these slips of the tongues -- i don't think he misspoke, i think he was just being honest, inadvertantly, and i do think that every now and again we do get a sense of how rich, white, privileged, powerful, conservative, political people view the world -- we saw it with Trent Lott, with Barbara Bush, and now with "morals czar" Bill Bennett.

it's not that they hate black people; it's just that if you're black, you're not a person to them.

And I think you are just jumping to conclusions becuse you don't like the guy...Has anyone ever heard of context around here? I guess not. Anyway before, jumping down my throat hear me out. I listen to Benett's show many mornings...racism is something he could never be accused of. About what he said, he was talking with a caller about justification for abortions. As everyone in here probably knows, Bennett is firmly anti-abortion. The caller was trying to make some justifications for abortion which Bennett disagreed with. He pretty much said, "ok if you wanna go down that road, here is another argument that could be made for abortion which I think is morally reprehensible. The black population does committ proportionally more crime than other races." I think he was referring to studies that have been produced that stated the effects of abortion on the crime rate. I am shocked that people in here who should know Bennett's stand regarding abortion would actually take his comments verbatim. To me it sounds like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift.

Please, think before speaking and do a little research and background checking before flaming the guy.

 

[Irvine511]

And I think you are just jumping to conclusions becuse you don't like the guy...Has anyone ever heard of context around here? I guess not. Anyway before, jumping down my throat hear me out. I listen to Benett's show many mornings...racism is something he could never be accused of. About what he said, he was talking with a caller about justification for abortions. As everyone in here probably knows, Bennett is firmly anti-abortion. The caller was trying to make some justifications for abortion which Bennett disagreed with. He pretty much said, "ok if you wanna go down that road, here is another argument that could be made for abortion which I think is morally reprehensible. The black population does committ proportionally more crime than other races." I think he was referring to studies that have been produced that stated the effects of abortion on the crime rate. I am shocked that people in here who should know Bennett's stand regarding abortion would actually take his comments verbatim. To me it sounds like "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift.

Please, think before speaking and do a little research and background checking before flaming the guy.

believe it or not, i know a lot more about Bill Bennett than you'd think. he was an alumnus of my college, and he was known for calling up the Dean's Office on a regular basis to complain that the curriculum was too liberal, too concened with race and class and gender, and he was concerned as to why we were no longer reading for values only. i've read much of his writings, and i always pay attention when he's blustering on Larry King or whoever, because of this college connection.

his extreme outrage at the Clinton blowjob was utterly undermined by his massive gambling problems and debt, and i think we can argue that gambling is far more "immoral" than blowjobs, since gambling ruins lives and wrecks the savings of many elderly people.

as for the comment, i understand how it's following a chain of logic, but i also think that for such an option to occur to him is indicative of precisely the attitudes i enumerated in my post. like i said, i don't think he'd ever consider himself a racist. same with Trent Lott or even Barbara Bush. what i do think, and i think his comments are indicative of this perhaps subconscious attitude, is that black people -- especially poor black people -- aren't fully human in his eyes.

does Bennett have to say explicitly racist things or use racial slurs for us to call him a racist? i don't think so -- i think he holds racist attitudes and notions, but this is more due to his rather extreme privilege, his life in an ivory tower, his wealth, and his enormous self-absorption.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

So the simple fact that he mentions this option makes him a racist? It seems to me that he was pointing out the fallacies of the caller's arguments while at the same time trying to expose what he perceives as one of the problems with abortion-that it affects blacks more than others, and also that it can be used for racial purposes. I have heard him complain about that many times, that many black women are the ones getting abortions and how this is one of the tragedies of abortions. I don't think this is the thread for debating abortion, but that is his belief.

 

[nbcrusader]

Bennett's comment is an inapproapriate way to say that there is a higher crime rate among African Americans.

A broader context of the comments from the radio show would help a bit, but it seems enough to give him the Trent Lott treatment.

 

[Irvine511]

From the September 28 broadcast of Salem Radio Network's Bill Bennett's Morning in America:

CALLER: I noticed the national media, you know, they talk a lot about the loss of revenue, or the inability of the government to fund Social Security, and I was curious, and I've read articles in recent months here, that the abortions that have happened since Roe v. Wade, the lost revenue from the people who have been aborted in the last 30-something years, could fund Social Security as we know it today. And the media just doesn't -- never touches this at all.

BENNETT: Assuming they're all productive citizens?

CALLER: Assuming that they are. Even if only a portion of them were, it would be an enormous amount of revenue.

BENNETT: Maybe, maybe, but we don't know what the costs would be, too. I think as -- abortion disproportionately occur among single women? No.

CALLER: I don't know the exact statistics, but quite a bit are, yeah.

BENNETT: All right, well, I mean, I just don't know. I would not argue for the pro-life position based on this, because you don't know. I mean, it cuts both -- you know, one of the arguments in this book Freakonomics that they make is that the declining crime rate, you know, they deal with this hypothesis, that one of the reasons crime is down is that abortion is up. Well --

CALLER: Well, I don't think that statistic is accurate.

BENNETT: Well, I don't think it is either, I don't think it is either, because first of all, there is just too much that you don't know. But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.

 

[Irvine511]

So the simple fact that he mentions this option makes him a racist? It seems to me that he was pointing out the fallacies of the caller's arguments while at the same time trying to expose what he perceives as one of the problems with abortion-that it affects blacks more than others, and also that it can be used for racial purposes. I have heard him complain about that many times, that many black women are the ones getting abortions and how this is one of the tragedies of abortions. I don't think this is the thread for debating abortion, but that is his belief.

no, it's not that it makes him a racist, it makes him the holder of a racist view of a particular segment of the population.

here's the distinction: as i understand it, Bennett's remark was apparently inspired by the claim that legalized abortion has reduced crime rates from the book _Freakonomics_.

however, the book argues that aborted fetuses would have been more likely to grow up poor and in single-parent or teenage-parent households and therefore more likely to commit crimes; they did not simply use race as the basis for their judgement, as Bennett did.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

But he doesn't actually HOLD that view. Isn't that the point? Or do we toss that out in favor of something that falls more in line with our political views?

 

[Irvine511]

But he doesn't actually HOLD that view. Isn't that the point? Or do we toss that out in favor of something that falls more in line with our political views?

to use race as the basis for lowering the crime rate is a racist notion; to use socio-economic status as a basis for lowering the crime rate (and, yes, socio-economic status is often "race-ed") isn't a racist notion because it points to quantifiable factors as reasons for higher crime rates and within that it is implicit that it isn't race that causes one to commit crimes but where one is born.

as Bennett stated it, it is race that makes one more likely to commit crimes. that is a racist notion.

did he misspeak? probably. does this indicate a lack of awareness? yes.

 

[nbcrusader]

to use race as the basis for lowering the crime rate is a racist notion; to use socio-economic status as a basis for lowering the crime rate (and, yes, socio-economic status is often "race-ed") isn't a racist notion because it points to quantifiable factors as reasons for higher crime rates and within that it is implicit that it isn't race that causes one to commit crimes but where one is born.

as Bennett stated it, it is race that makes one more likely to commit crimes. that is a racist notion.

did he misspeak? probably. does this indicate a lack of awareness? yes.

Are statistics showing a higher rate of crime among African Americans racist?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

bennett's a toolbag.

crime rate has nothing to do with race... something that many people in america fail to realize. it's not that they're black that's making them committ crime... it's that they are poor. it's that they are so desperate to get out of a shit situation that they turn to the only thing they can think of to take care of them and theres. get rid of every "minority" in america and some other group of lillywhite poor people will take their place.

a man allegedly as smart as bennett should know this. in the early history of our nation, when blacks were still slaves, the crime rate was higher than it is now, that's for damn sure. and again, it was largely the poor who turned to crime, because they had nothing else. then it was largely the irish... very much the white man.

as long as we have people in power who continue to believe that this is a race thing, we will continue to hear things like this and see things like we saw in new orleans.

and it's not a republican/democrat thing... it's a rich white man thing.

 

[Irvine511]

bennett's a toolbag.

crime rate has nothing to do with race... something that many people in america fail to realize. it's not that they're black that's making them committ crime... it's that they are poor. it's that they are so desperate to get out of a shit situation that they turn to the only thing they can think of to take care of them and theres. get rid of every "minority" in america and some other group of lillywhite poor people will take their place.

a man allegedly as smart as bennett should know this. in the early history of our nation, when blacks were still slaves, the crime rate was higher than it is now, that's for damn sure. and again, it was largely the poor who turned to crime, because they had nothing else. then it was largely the irish... very much the white man.

as long as we have people in power who continue to believe that this is a race thing, we will continue to hear things like this and see things like we saw in new orleans.

and it's not a republican/democrat thing... it's a rich white man thing.

well said.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The White House on Friday criticized former Education Secretary William Bennett for remarks linking the crime rate and the abortion of black babies.

"The President believes the comments were not appropriate," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.

 

[MaxFisher]

crime rate has nothing to do with race... something that many people in america fail to realize. it's not that they're black that's making them committ crime... it's that they are poor.

Exactly! And Bennett would agree with you. Bennett was disagreeing with the caller who was saying that more abortions would lower crime. Since, the majority of crimes are committed by blacks, Bennett turned the caller's logic around and asked if therefore blacks should have more abortions. He was demonstrating the absurdity of the caller's argument. He was NOT suggesting that crime should be lowered by an increase in black abortions.

Bennett may be many things, but he is not a racist.

 

[Irvine511]

Exactly! And Bennett would agree with you. Bennett was disagreeing with the caller who was saying that more abortions would lower crime. Since, the majority of crimes are committed by blacks, Bennett turned the caller's logic around and asked if therefore blacks should have more abortions. He was demonstrating the absurdity of the caller's argument. He was NOT suggesting that crime should be lowered by an increase in black abortions.

Bennett may be many things, but he is not a racist.

firstly, i don't think the majority of crimes are committed by blacks. i think a disproportionate amount of crimes are committed by blacks, but not the majority. there's also the fact that a white jury is more likely to convict a black person, and to sentence that person to a harsher penalty.

that aside, the racism in Bennett's statement lies not with his logic, but lies in pointing to race *alone* as the determining factor in committing crime, and not to social factors like poverty, unemployment, broken homes, etc. as i noted, he was paraphrasing the argument in _Freakanomics_, but the authors of that book never used race, the used unwed mothers and children born into poverty.

 

[MaxFisher]

that aside, the racism in Bennett's statement lies not with his logic, but lies in pointing to race *alone* as the determining factor in committing crime, and not to social factors like poverty, unemployment, broken homes, etc.

Do you honestly think that Bennett believes that race *alone* is the determening factor for crime? Having read his books and listened to his show, I think he would say the break down of basic morality is the major cause of crime in the U.S., along with poverty, unemployment, broken homes etc.

 

[nbcrusader]

that aside, the racism in Bennett's statement lies not with his logic, but lies in pointing to race *alone* as the determining factor in committing crime, and not to social factors like poverty, unemployment, broken homes, etc. as i noted, he was paraphrasing the argument in _Freakanomics_, but the authors of that book never used race, the used unwed mothers and children born into poverty.

When did Bennett point to race *alone* as a determining factor in committing crime??

He didn't say anything like:

i think a disproportionate amount of crimes are committed by blacks

 

[Irvine511]

When did Bennett point to race *alone* as a determining factor in committing crime??

He didn't say anything like:

he said:

But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down

where does he refer to anything other than race as an indicator of crime?

also, as regards to my statement, i used the words "i think" because i don't have statistics on hand to prove my point; but, i do think that statistics would bear out my claim. and that african-americans are disproportionately poor, etc., and all the things that i've expounded upon in other threads.

of course, Bennett basically believes that people are poor because they lack his moral fiber. but that's another story ...

 

[MaxFisher]

When did Bennett point to race *alone* as a determining factor in committing crime??

This whole "controversy" is nothing more than a knee jerk response to Bennett's comment. It's a non story blown up by the media and perpetuated by Bennett's oponents.

 

[Irvine511]

This whole "controversy" is nothing more than a knee jerk response to Bennett's comment. It's a non story blown up by the media and perpetuated by Bennett's oponents.

see my post above, and that answers NBC question.

as for the story, yes, there are far more important things to worry about.

but when a man writes a best selling book called _The Death of Outrage_ and trumpets about personal morality and it's decline as the reason why we have poor people (not, you know, because of Republican tax cuts or other rapacious economic policies) and *then* turns out to have a massive gambling problem, he sets himself up for karmic retribution.

it's called hypocrisy, and that's the story.

 

[MaxFisher]

but when a man writes a best selling book called _The Death of Outrage_ and trumpets about personal morality and it's decline as the reason why we have poor people (not, you know, because of Republican tax cuts or other rapacious economic policies) and *then* turns out to have a massive gambling problem, he sets himself up for karmic retribution.

it's called hypocrisy, and that's the story.

An ad hominem tactic.

Simply because Benett has observed and commented on a moral decline in the U.S. does not mean he must now lead an infallible existence.

However, unfortunately for Bennett, he does lose credibility and respect which no doubt pleases his opponents.

 

[BVS]

You know this country is being brainwashed when we have people defending Benett. The man's a waste of written and spoken word.

 

[Irvine511]

An ad hominem tactic.

Simply because Benett has observed and commented on a moral decline in the U.S. does not mean he must now lead an infallible existence.

However, unfortunately for Bennett, he does lose credibility and respect which no doubt pleases his opponents.

tactic?

you asked why his comments would generate such contraversy.

i gave you the answer. same thing with Rush Limbaugh and his drug addictions.

and if you take into account Bennett's hysterics regarding the whole blow job fiasco, it makes him look like even more of a hypocritical blowhard.

however, if we were to take this a few steps further, i agree with you in a sense. i don't expect perfection from my political leaders; in fact, one thing i like about Bush was he said that when he was young and irresponsible he was young and irresponsible and refused to answer questions about his cocaine abuse. did he snort lines? well, obviously. however, that has *nothing* to do with whether or not he'd be an effective leader. Clinton having extramarital affairs has nothing to do with whether or not he's a good president. what's become poisonous is a public that demands some sort of idea of perfection from their leaders, a pefection that has *never* existed and was only possible to create in the past due to the lack of media scrutiny. do you think JFK would be president today? FDR? even Lincoln (who slept with a man for 5 years while a young lawyer and had admirals visit him in the white house whenever Mary Todd was away?)

it is precisely the Bill Bennetts of the world that have made politics about a highly, highly subjective and self-serving definition of "morality" that is ultimately self-defeating because they apply a standard to their leaders that they themselves -- nor *anyone* else -- ever live up to. the result is that politics becomes about self-destruction, and leaders are not selected for their governing ability but for their ability to be effectively presented to the media for public consumption.

and it is the "morals and values" crowd who are most to blame for this culture and for the now sad fact that perception, not performance, is what now matters.

let's drop the outrage at the fact that powerful men have sex with younger women. let's drop the outrage that privileged white boys snort cocaine and drink too much. let's drop the outrage that fat radio hosts might be succeptible to myriad addictions.

let's drop outrage altogther. let's demand *ability*.

 

[MaxFisher]

You know this country is being brainwashed when we have people defending Benett. The man's a waste of written and spoken word.

Always a great approach....Tell people you disagree with that they're brainwashed.