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Old 04-13-2008, 02:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


So says you.

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Old 04-13-2008, 06:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


But diamond, there is a need to redefine it. Gay people do not have to hide or change who they are anymore. Gay people are a part of every community the world over. We're all accepting that now, surely. They are there, and they are there to stay. We do need to redefine what marriage means. It is reaching the point where you cannot keep denying gay folk the same opportunities as others. We don't accept this kind of discrimination anymore in other avenues. Sex discrimination is no different when you equalise all humans and all rights. Logic dictates this, so let the logic speak to you.

Insitutions, words, social norms, etc, are all ever-changing. Marriage is just another one. Time to join the rest of us in the modern world where there are gay people who are not going anywhere.... Unless you want to be a bigot, that is?
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:17 AM   #23
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Gay people have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us.
No doubt those who are against same sex marriage believe its against " god's will ".
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:21 AM   #24
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Problem with that of course is that marriage exists for people without religion too, so whatever god wants is not even really a relevant argument.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:49 AM   #25
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So the only secular argument against gay marriage so far is the that word has already been defined?

What a stellar reason to deny rights to people.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:55 AM   #26
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Marriage already has a "definition" because straight people have given it one, and not very successfully, in many cases, it seems But of course numerous failed straight marriages trump any gay marriage any day of the week, cause they fit the definition and all that

Gay people deserve to get married every bit as much as straight people do in order to seal and celebrate their commitment to one another, which is the main ideal reason straight people get married I assume.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
So the only secular argument against gay marriage so far is the that word has already been defined?

What a stellar reason to deny rights to people.
Actually it is perfectly secular to take pride in fucking over the outgroup, it affirms your normality, and I don't think that is a bad reason in and of itself.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:43 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Marriage already has a "definition" because straight people have given it one, and not very successfully, in many cases, it seems But of course numerous failed straight marriages trump any gay marriage any day of the week, cause they fit the definition and all that

Gay people deserve to get married every bit as much as straight people do in order to seal and celebrate their commitment to one another, which is the main ideal reason straight people get married I assume.
Gay ppl can't get "married" but can have a long term committed relationship as married ppl do. Nobody in this thread is objecting to that.

That said:

1- I don't think the main reason people get married is to "celebrate their commitment to one another" it's one of the reasons, apparently you do as well as most secularists I suppose think it's a main reason -it appears based on yours and others posts.

2-It will be interesting to see once gay committed relationships become legalized to track their success rate compared to the "bigoted" married crowd.


Get to me once the data starts to trickle in and we may have something to chat about.

thanks-
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:03 AM   #29
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If this page got its facts right, homosexual couples wouldn't have to worry about any comparison: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:12 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Gay ppl can't get "married" but can have a long term committed relationship as married ppl do. Nobody in this thread is objecting to that.

That said:

1- I don't think the main reason people get married is to "celebrate their commitment to one another" it's one of the reasons, apparently you do as well as most secularists I suppose think it's a main reason -it appears based on yours and others posts.

2-It will be interesting to see once gay committed relationships become legalized to track their success rate compared to the "bigoted" married crowd.


Get to me once the data starts to trickle in and we may have something to chat about.

Lol, you call me a "secularist" because I believe that? I consider myself to be a pretty religious person, even though you may not-it's ok Personally I just don't believe that religion should be used to deny human beings rights. So what is the main reason you think people get married? To have kids? What about people who don't want kids or can't physically have them? They shouldn't get married then, right?

Of course gay people can have children, there are ways and of course there's adoption, which is every bit as "legit" as the God created way.

Gay marriages have been very successful so far in MA, and of course MA has the LOWEST divorce rate in the US..
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Gay ppl can't get "married" but can have a long term committed relationship as married ppl do. Nobody in this thread is objecting to that.

That said:

1- I don't think the main reason people get married is to "celebrate their commitment to one another" it's one of the reasons, apparently you do as well as most secularists I suppose think it's a main reason -it appears based on yours and others posts.

2-It will be interesting to see once gay committed relationships become legalized to track their success rate compared to the "bigoted" married crowd.


Get to me once the data starts to trickle in and we may have something to chat about.

thanks-
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You still haven't given any reasons except the dictionary.
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Old 04-13-2008, 12:32 PM   #32
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i can give secular arguments as to why separate-but-equal institutions like "civil unions" have problems, but i cannot give one about marriage equality.

it is the only fair thing to do.
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Old 04-13-2008, 03:49 PM   #33
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Originally posted by financeguy
The usual non-religious argument raised here, though I don't tend to agree with it, is that children raised by gay parents could be more likely to be bullied.

Yes, that's the reason.
A child raised by a homosexual couple would be discriminated and exposed to ridicule , becouse like we all know.. kids are cruel.. adults worse.

If people were tolerant, if everyone could respect different options, everything would be different, unfortunately most of the thoughts of our world are 'limited'.
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Old 04-13-2008, 03:56 PM   #34
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Originally posted by ' Bleuart



Yes, that's the reason.
A child raised by a homosexual couple would be discriminated and exposed to ridicule , becouse like we all know.. kids are cruel.. adults worse.

Are you saying this is a legitimate reason for continuing to outlaw gay marriage?
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:01 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by ' Bleuart



Yes, that's the reason.
A child raised by a homosexual couple would be discriminated and exposed to ridicule , becouse like we all know.. kids are cruel.. adults worse.

If people were tolerant, if everyone could respect different options, everything would be different, unfortunately most of the thoughts of our world are 'limited'.
Go back a few years and that quote might look like this:

Quote:
Yes, that's the reason.
A child born to an interracial couple would be discriminated and exposed to ridicule , becouse like we all know.. kids are cruel.. adults worse.

If people were tolerant, if everyone could respect different options, everything would be different, unfortunately most of the thoughts of our world are 'limited'.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:05 PM   #36
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It is a wonder that my cousin has survived to the 37 years old. It is a wonder that he has now married and has children.

He apparently survived being raised by two lesbians.

Apparently their relationship of being together, loving each other for longer than any of my parents ten marriages means squat.
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Old 04-13-2008, 05:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico



Varitek would be someone to ask about that.

I don't agree with that argument either, I think it's stupid. Kids are gonna get bullied no matter what. It's almost like saying people shouldn't have children with disabilities because they are more likely to be bullied. Kids look for any excuse to bully others these days.
I had never read Varitek's thread till last night. Thanks so much for linking to it, Mia.

This should be required reading for every anti-gay marriage/gays adopting/gays as parents poster in this forum.

Kudos to Varitek, her willingness to share, and her eloquence.
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:47 PM   #38
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I said that that was one of the reasons , but not that i'm agreed with her.
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:55 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by ' Bleuart



Yes, that's the reason.
A child raised by a homosexual couple would be discriminated and exposed to ridicule , becouse like we all know.. kids are cruel.. adults worse.

If people were tolerant, if everyone could respect different options, everything would be different, unfortunately most of the thoughts of our world are 'limited'.
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen

Go back a few years and that quote might look like this:


Quote:
Yes, that's the reason.
A child born to an interracial couple would be discriminated and exposed to ridicule , becouse like we all know.. kids are cruel.. adults worse.

If people were tolerant, if everyone could respect different options, everything would be different, unfortunately most of the thoughts of our world are 'limited'. [/B]

From bad to worse ..
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:13 PM   #40
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But is it an argument against gay marriage or against bigotry?
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