Why Do Straights Hate Gays?

[A_Wanderer]

No something does not "need to be done", relationships fail and will always fail and that is not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a fact. Society won't change because you want the top down use of force to make people try harder at their marriages, it can only change if enough people start thinking before acting and having more respect for others - so good luck on that, but don't be using coercion to make it happen.

If a person gets in a car accident because they're drunk, a judge can order them to get help

And that is often through the religion that is Alcoholics Anonymous (which like so much religion doesn't do anything), a breach of dividing church and state.

 

[Irvine511]

as for marriages, i think the 50% divorce rate can be attributed to two things:

1. people marry for love, not economic necessity,and love fades and is fleeting

2. way, way too many kids get preggers and have to get married way too young because of abstinence-only education

check out divorce rates between "red" states and "blue" states.

 

[snowbunny00774]

And the reason many men are thrilled at seeing two women together is because they're attracted to women!

Only hetero women acting out though right? Two lesbian women would still be a threat to the sanctity of marriage as it would not involve a man and a woman.

Men attracted to women who make the choice to commit a homosexual act would probably find this more acceptable than seeing two lesbians being compelled by their homosexual makeup to commit the act. They are unlikely to be invited to participate by the lesbians, so while they might champion the right to choice in the first case, it's unlikely they would champion the right, period in the second.

It's not about denying choice, like two straight women choosing to kiss, - it's about denying a right to confirm a commitment between two men or women who are compelled to be together.

I haven't explained this well so I'll leave now

 

[fly so high!]

That poor 72year old.....she has the weight of the world on her.....and she should be kickin' back enjoying herself having a glass of chardy with her partner.

The world is made up of two races.

1. People
2. Impossible people - people who CANNOT be reasoned with.

It's the "Impossible People" who are the instigators.....and they are EVERYWHERE.......they have even infiltrated our governments and sad to say our insurance companies.

 

[anitram]

what would you say if you heard someone say that a black man kissing a white woman was gross or disgusting? would that seem a hateful comment to you?

I used to just brand this as bigoted and hateful but I don't think it's that simple.

I know at least two people here at law school who are brilliant, very left-leaning and progressive and want to work in the public law sector. They are adamantly pro-gay rights, legalization of marriage, gay adoptions and so on. They believe it's a Constitutional issue, and are very articulate and strongminded.

But they are not comfortable with seeing two men or women physical with each other. One could not live with a lesbian roommate, she just found it bothered her to see the display of affection and she realizes this is her problem. But by no means did that make her any less of an activist. You sometimes have to take into account cultural upbringing and people coming from smaller, more sheltered communities and the kneejerk reaction may be "gross". Hopefully it passes, but I don't think it's as simple as somebody being hateful.

 

[coemgen]

no, i don't see the difference, and you're last sentence has proved my point: straight men are in fact often turned on by homosexualitiy between (usually hot) females.

It doesn't prove your point. Straight men aren't turned on by homosexuality between men, or even a man on his own. How can you compare the two?

so it is not the presence of homosexuality that makes someone go "ewww," it's the idea of two bodies to which you are not attracted. it's physical, it's superficial, it goes no deeper than that -- just like, 50 years ago, the cosmetics of race would have been an important part of sexual attraction.

yes, it's two bodies that they're not attracted to – sexually. that's the key word.

i'll also offer myself up as an example. i've grown up in a heteronormative world. it's normal for me to see physical expressions of affection between men and women. i feel neutral about it even though it is as alien to my sexual orientation as two men kissing are to yours. the difference is that i haven't had it beaten into my head that this is gross/disgusting/unnatural.

How do you know it's beaten into someone's head that two men kissing is gross? It's a natural reaction for heterosexual men to not be attracted to it. Here you're using the same logic you don't want anti-gay marriage people to use against you - that the way you feel isn't natural.

now, where my orientation rears it's ugly head is when i start to think about specific sexual acts. to be blunt, i probably find the idea of performing oral sex on a woman as "gross" as you might find the idea of kissing (or more) with a man. and that's fine. but i've learned to be mature about it, not to scream "ewwww!" if/when i hear straight men talking about it, because it's like brussel sprouts -- some people just don't like them.

Well, and that's the point I'm making. Yeah, people don't have to be immature about it, but they shouldn't be called hateful because it makes them uncomfortable or they personally think it's gross. That's what I'm getting at.

 

[yolland]

and she realizes this is her problem.

I think that's the bottom line. I would agree it's something to work on, but what matters most is recognizing that that emotional reaction comes from a place that isn't worthy of providing a basis for legal discrimination.

 

[dietcokeofevil]

I am straight and I love gays. They are HAWWWT

 

[MadelynIris]

I've completely separated the 'gay rights' from civil unions, and I wish that society would too. I'm all for any kind of household partnerships as long as it only involves 2 people (and even there, I'm a little leary, that it should be more). Bothers, sisters, cousins, lovers, children, etc... They should be afforded partner status with all entitled benefits.

Curious what you think of that Irvine...

 

[Irvine511]

It doesn't prove your point. Straight men aren't turned on by homosexuality between men, or even a man on his own. How can you compare the two?

but don't you see? two women together is homosexuality, it is NOT heterosexuality. so it's not what you said earlier, a sexuality different than one's own that causes the "gross" reaction, it's the presence of two bodies that one is not attracted to.

and where does this leave staight women, some of whom do find the idea of two men together intriguing?



[q]How do you know it's beaten into someone's head that two men kissing is gross? It's a natural reaction for heterosexual men to not be attracted to it. Here you're using the same logic you don't want anti-gay marriage people to use against you - that the way you feel isn't natural.[/q]


are you kidding? it would be impossible to unpack the levels of culturally induced homophobia in a few short sentences, but let's just say that everything from "gay" as an insult to games like "smear the queer" to that Snickers commercial to the gay-baiting that goes on between Simon and the oh-so-straight Ryan Seacrest on AI all plays into the "gay is weird" narrative.

when i was 13, i remembered seeing two men holding hands for the first time when i was visiting Germany. i thought it was weird and a little gross. there are times when i see two men holding hands in Logan Circle and i'm always taken a little aback. it's different, even to me, because it's not something i grew up seeing. it's not a socialized expectation.

Well, and that's the point I'm making. Yeah, people don't have to be immature about it, but they shouldn't be called hateful because it makes them uncomfortable or they personally think it's gross. That's what I'm getting at.

again, what i've been trying to say is that anyone can retain the "ew, gross" vibe, as well as the "gays are immoral" standpoint; what turns into active, harmful hate is when you use this to deny people basic rights. and this is why the interracial analogy works so well. many people think that black men kissing white women is upsetting. and they are free to feel that and to use the Bible to justify their anti-miscegenation feelings (as people have done for centuries). but they are not free to prevent black people from marrying white people.

 

[Irvine511]

I've completely separated the 'gay rights' from civil unions, and I wish that society would too. I'm all for any kind of household partnerships as long as it only involves 2 people (and even there, I'm a little leary, that it should be more). Bothers, sisters, cousins, lovers, children, etc... They should be afforded partner status with all entitled benefits.

Curious what you think of that Irvine...

i'd need you to explain this further, since i remember past threads where you've placed polygamy and incest in the same category of "personal choice" where you place homosexuality.

 

[Irvine511]

I used to just brand this as bigoted and hateful but I don't think it's that simple.

i agree. see my earlier post.

what becomes hateful is not the "ew, gross" reaction, but the feeling that "ew, gross" can somehow logically translate into a moral position and a legal position that is then used to deny other people rights and basic respect.

and now, i have to leave this thread because Memphis isn't feeling well so we're beeing all weird and gross and gay as we eat Pho (which has magical healing properties, i swear) and watch "blood diamond."

we're not cuddling on the couch, though, and not because we wouldn't want anyone to feel uncomfortable, but because i don't want to get sick.

 

[verte76]

I'm straight, and I like gays and lesbians.

 

[MadelynIris]

i'd need you to explain this further, since i remember past threads where you've placed polygamy and incest in the same category of "personal choice" where you place homosexuality.

Nah, just a qualified partner, not necessarilly sexual, that simple. But yes, partner(s) is where it would get kind of gray. I guess, to keep it simple, we must limit it to one.

If the partners happen to be of the same sex, no big deal, lovers or not. Just as long as they agree to be 'partners' to some level of legal agreement.

 

[Irvine511]

Nah, just a qualified partner, not necessarilly sexual, that simple. But yes, partner(s) is where it would get kind of gray. I guess, to keep it simple, we must limit it to one.

If the partners happen to be of the same sex, no big deal, lovers or not. Just as long as they agree to be 'partners' to some level of legal agreement.

so does this apply to everyone? there is no privileged status for romantically involved heterosexuals?

 

[coemgen]

but don't you see? two women together is homosexuality, it is NOT heterosexuality. so it's not what you said earlier, a sexuality different than one's own that causes the "gross" reaction, it's the presence of two bodies that one is not attracted to.

You're right, it is. I didn't say none of us guys feel uneasy seeing two women together. I sure do. It doesn't feel right to me. I can't say why some guys find it kinky or whatever, other than it's two women instead of just one. This whole thing has kind of gotten away from my original point that if a heterosexual feels odd or uneasy at seeing two guys kiss, it shouldn't be equated to hate. That's what I'm getting at, which you agreed with.

I love it when you and I actually agree on something.

when i was 13, i remembered seeing two men holding hands for the first time when i was visiting Germany. i thought it was weird and a little gross. there are times when i see two men holding hands in Logan Circle and i'm always taken a little aback. it's different, even to me, because it's not something i grew up seeing. it's not a socialized expectation.

See, I find this interesting. Even though you're attracted to men, it was gross at first to see two men holding hands?

again, what i've been trying to say is that anyone can retain the "ew, gross" vibe, as well as the "gays are immoral" standpoint; what turns into active, harmful hate is when you use this to deny people basic rights. and this is why the interracial analogy works so well. many people think that black men kissing white women is upsetting. and they are free to feel that and to use the Bible to justify their anti-miscegenation feelings (as people have done for centuries). but they are not free to prevent black people from marrying white people.

Yes, but again, my whole point is that race is different than sexuality. I know you're saying they're the same because people are born that way, but we're talking about skin color verses what you do when you're naked with somebody. Apples and oranges, man.

I agree though, basic rights shouldn't be denied.

What verses are you refering to to justify that crap? I've honestly never heard of any . . . unless they come from the Book of Mormon.

 

[Irvine511]

See, I find this interesting. Even though you're attracted to men, it was gross at first to see two men holding hands?

no, i find myself still finding it unusual. when i was thirteen, i might have thought it was gross, but that was a knee-jerk reaction when reality was different (and i was interested in kissing another boy, but that's a long, long story).

but what complicates this is that kissing or holding hands or cuddling with a boyfriend is as natural as breathing to me. i never think, "weird, two guys kissing," whereas if i saw two guys kissing outside of a gay bar, i'd take notice. i certainly don't think it's gross (now, i might be jealous) but even for me, as a gay man living in a gay-friendly city, gay public displays of affection are so rare and i was brought up without any gay-positive images, that any gay PDA is going to catch my eye.

that's how deep social homophobia goes.



[q]Yes, but again, my whole point is that race is different than sexuality. I know you're saying they're the same because people are born that way, but we're talking about skin color verses what you do when you're naked with somebody. Apples and oranges, man.[/q]


have you met any genuinely racist people? how they think of black people (or whomever) is really very much the same as how homophobes see gay people, and a genuine racist would find a black man kissing a white woman as repulsive as a homophobe finds two men kissing.

and what i'm getting at is that the revulsion we feel is more due to social conditioning than anything else. no, a straight man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a man, and a gay man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a woman. that, to me, seems indicative of one's sexual orientation. that which turns you on. but when you are repulsed by the thought of a sexual act that is not natural to your orientation, that, to me, is indicative of how heteronormative society is.

again, i use myself as an example. i am uninterested in female sex organs. but i know straight men are. and they can do what they want. i have no interest, but i respect their interest, and i don't find it, or them, gross.

but you seem to be saying that it's perfectly okay for someone to find me gross, and that it's a perfectly normal extention of their heterosexuality to deem gayness gross. and i'm saying that the "gross" distinction is socialized and conditioned, it's not intrinsic to heterosexuality.

What verses are you refering to to justify that crap? I've honestly never heard of any . . . unless they come from the Book of Mormon. [/B]

i'd have to go digging, but it's no secret that the Bible was used to justify slavery, and to support anti-miscegenation laws, not least of which was in Loving vs. Virginia in 1967, where only 40 years ago it was illegal for blacks and whites to marry.

 

[coemgen]

no, i find myself still finding it unusual. when i was thirteen, i might have thought it was gross, but that was a knee-jerk reaction when reality was different (and i was interested in kissing another boy, but that's a long, long story).

but what complicates this is that kissing or holding hands or cuddling with a boyfriend is as natural as breathing to me. i never think, "weird, two guys kissing," whereas if i saw two guys kissing outside of a gay bar, i'd take notice. i certainly don't think it's gross (now, i might be jealous) but even for me, as a gay man living in a gay-friendly city, gay public displays of affection are so rare and i was brought up without any gay-positive images, that any gay PDA is going to catch my eye.

That's interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

have you met any genuinely racist people? how they think of black people (or whomever) is really very much the same as how homophobes see gay people, and a genuine racist would find a black man kissing a white woman as repulsive as a homophobe finds two men kissing.

and what i'm getting at is that the revulsion we feel is more due to social conditioning than anything else. no, a straight man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a man, and a gay man doesn't want to perform oral sex on a woman. that, to me, seems indicative of one's sexual orientation. that which turns you on. but when you are repulsed by the thought of a sexual act that is not natural to your orientation, that, to me, is indicative of how heteronormative society is.

again, i use myself as an example. i am uninterested in female sex organs. but i know straight men are. and they can do what they want. i have no interest, but i respect their interest, and i don't find it, or them, gross.

but you seem to be saying that it's perfectly okay for someone to find me gross, and that it's a perfectly normal extention of their heterosexuality to deem gayness gross. and i'm saying that the "gross" distinction is socialized and conditioned, it's not intrinsic to heterosexuality.

I'm not talking about homophobes though. I'm talking about heterosexual people, whatever they feel about homosexuality, feeling something odd or uneasy about two men kissing. I wholeheartedly, strongly disagree that that's there just because of societal reasons. I think it's there because it's there. I really do.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm not talking about homophobes though. I'm talking about heterosexual people, whatever they feel about homosexuality, feeling something odd or uneasy about two men kissing. I wholeheartedly, strongly disagree that that's there just because of societal reasons. I think it's there because it's there. I really do.

then we'll have to agree to disagree.

why, then, do homosexuals not have a problem with heterosexuals kissing? i don't know of a single homosexual who feels uncomfortable with straight PDA.

 

[coemgen]

I don't know. That's an interesting question.

I'm going to go eat dinner now. (Yeah, I know. It's midnight and I'm eating freaking dinner. I worked late on a big story though.)

Irvine, have a great night and a great weekend. It's been good talking.

 

[yolland]

What verses are you refering to to justify that crap? I've honestly never heard of any . . . unless they come from the Book of Mormon.

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3781008#post3781008

Plus the "unequally yoked" thing--I forgot that one, and sean reminded me on the next page. You'll probably find most of these an interpretive stretch at best, and of course I'd agree, but I can assure you from direct personal experience that there indeed were and still are people who think this way.

 

[coemgen]

OK, I had heard the Babel crap. It's the same thing as the others -- taken out of context.

I honestly haven't run into anyone who thinks this. Thanks for sharing it.

Crazy.

 

[MadelynIris]

so does this apply to everyone? there is no privileged status for romantically involved heterosexuals?

A legal partnership agreement between romantically involved heterosexuals? Sounds pretty close to our definition of marriage. I'm just saying include the others too.

 

[dazzlingamy]

I am straight, support gay marriage, adoption and same rights as hetrosexual couples. I have participated in gay rights movements at uni and would definately not vote for someone who advocated anti gay legislation and ideas...

BUT

I sometimes think gay people need to let go of worrying about what everyone else thinks. For the most part - the people who are most anti homosexuality are crazy fools anyway - why care what they think? Just be proud for who you are and not worry about what people say. EVERYONE is hated by someone else in this world and is still made the 'butt of jokes' by people - you gotta learn to know when to laugh and shrug it off and when to get offended and take further action. By getting upset of every slur, ever anti homosexual movement, is just spreading your anger and frustration rather then focussing on the major points.
Women are still hated by men in this world, plenty of places around the world see women as less then nothing, and even in 1st world countries there are still many people who look down on women, ridicule women for having 'power', try to exert their power over women (harassment, abuse, rape etc) and sure, there is a lot of stuff out there to deal with it, but a lot slides, just like a lot of gay stuff slides. I'm not talking about physcially abuse or anything serious, im talking about the undercurrent that is around. Move on, or stand up in the face of it and say 'fuck it, I'll d what I want, I don't CARE what you think'

I just sometimes think gay people need to realise, like most races, ethnics, disabled and fat people have realised, not everyone is going to like you, support you and want you around, and YOU have to be the bigger person and either push the issue or walk away. You have to accept that according to some stupid rule in society you are not "normal" and for some people regardless of society's changes for the better, you never will be normal and accepted. Aand those people are not worth your time.

 

[Doozer61]

when i was 13, i remembered seeing two men holding hands for the first time when i was visiting Germany. i thought it was weird and a little gross. there are times when i see two men holding hands in Logan Circle and i'm always taken a little aback. it's different, even to me, because it's not something i grew up seeing. it's not a socialized expectation.

I agree Irvine. I remember going into my first gay bar and seeing two men slow dance together. It was the oddest feeling, especially since I was in a gay bar. In the city I grew up in, I only remember seeing one "distinctive" gay person, the woman butcher, and feeling like I was the only other one in that city. THat is probably the reason my gaydar is so turned off. I wasn't raised seeing that as the norm.

Now living in Long Beach, it is the norm here, although we all blend in quite nicely.

I have to say I have read every page of this thread and love it when something I start turns into this.

BUT

I sometimes think gay people need to let go of worrying about what everyone else thinks. For the most part - the people who are most anti homosexuality are crazy fools anyway - why care what they think? Just be proud for who you are and not worry about what people say. EVERYONE is hated by someone else in this world and is still made the 'butt of jokes' by people - you gotta learn to know when to laugh and shrug it off and when to get offended and take further action. By getting upset of every slur, ever anti homosexual movement, is just spreading your anger and frustration rather then focussing on the major points.


I just sometimes think gay people need to realise, like most races, ethnics, disabled and fat people have realised, not everyone is going to like you, support you and want you around, and YOU have to be the bigger person and either push the issue or walk away. You have to accept that according to some stupid rule in society you are not "normal" and for some people regardless of society's changes for the better, you never will be normal and accepted. Aand those people are not worth your time.

For me I agree that we need to move on and not worry about what others think about us, but why tolerant hate in any form?

 

[BonosSaint]

That's interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.



I'm not talking about homophobes though. I'm talking about heterosexual people, whatever they feel about homosexuality, feeling something odd or uneasy about two men kissing. I wholeheartedly, strongly disagree that that's there just because of societal reasons. I think it's there because it's there. I really do.

The first time I remember seeing two men holding hands, kissing, I was in college (a while back). I lived near Christopher Street (which was kind of a gay Mecca) in Greenwich Village, I don't remember any "eew" factor or uncomfortableness. I do remember curiosity. (And I'm sure gays are absolutely thrilled about being objects of curiosity ) But it was benign curiosity. I wasn't thinking of them as freaks, just as something I hadn't seen before. That was the reason I went to school in New York--to see things I hadn't seen before and to incorporate them.

Back home, sometimes I felt uncomfortable (not offended or squeamish) about seeing it--because it wasn't a part of open small-town norm--which seems to me indicate that it was how it was presented socially--at least for me, not speaking for anyone else. I moved in and out of friendships with gays, didn't see inherently much difference in how we were both attracted to guys, at least in the initial stages I was seeing (sometimes trying to catch the eye of the same guy -- neither of us did).

All that being said I'm uncomfortable with close-quartered, steamy PDA between both heterosexuals and homosexuals (Get a room!) But the combinations don't make much difference to me.

I was always more interested in the differences between people than the similarities. And there is abundant pleasure in seeing the differences and similarities between us intertwined.

 

[snowbunny00774]

Move on, or stand up in the face of it and say 'fuck it, I'll d what I want, I don't CARE what you think'

That's the thing though, if what they want is a legal commitment and spousal rights, they can't have that, regardless of how much they say fuck it, I don't care about other people's opinions.

 

[Irvine511]

A legal partnership agreement between romantically involved heterosexuals? Sounds pretty close to our definition of marriage. I'm just saying include the others too.

i'm not sure what you're advocating.

do you want two classes of partnerships? one marriage, the other civil unions? because we have that in NJ and CT and VT. or are you saying that anyone can declare themselves married if they live together as a pair as a cohabitational unit?