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Old 04-01-2002, 01:07 AM   #1
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Why did Judas go to Heaven?

DISCLAIMER: I realize this is all very literal. Indulge me

Judas betrayed Jesus, right? Then God forgives him, he goes to heaven.

Murderers on earth kill. They get to the gates. They don't get into heaven. They go to hell (or so we like to believe)

People betray others. They get to the gates. They spend a fair portion of eternity serving time in Purgatory, working off their sins.

People lie, cheat, steal. They go to Purgatory and are tortured until they can be let through the pearly gates.

I don't understand this. I never have.
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Old 04-01-2002, 02:19 AM   #2
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Only god knows the answer.And nobody else.
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Old 04-01-2002, 02:36 AM   #3
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good save Rono
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Old 04-01-2002, 02:41 AM   #4
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I guess I wasn't aware of it, where does it say in the bible that Judas went to heaven? I've not seen where it says so, but I might have missed it.

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Old 04-01-2002, 10:17 AM   #5
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The Bible doesn't say anything about Judas going to Heaven. It's simply not in there.
According to the Bible, our eternal residence is not based on what w have done, but on our relationship with the Lord Jesus.
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Old 04-01-2002, 12:42 PM   #6
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There's nothing in the Bible that says Judas went to heaven or that he even asked for forgiveness.
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Old 04-01-2002, 01:43 PM   #7
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I just saw an ad for a program on the History Channel about a new perspective on Judas. It appears the show will delve into the debate over Judas being a friend or foe to Jesus. Without Judas' betrayal, Jesus' death wouldn't have come about in the way it did, and Jesus wouldn't have been able to perform His last miracle. I dunno, I'm gonna watch it, it seems interesting.

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Old 04-01-2002, 01:59 PM   #8
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Yeah
and going on w/what Lilly said Bono would never been able to write-
Until
The
End
Of
The
world.

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Old 04-01-2002, 04:49 PM   #9
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Jesus told Judas that it would have been better for him if had never been born.
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Old 04-01-2002, 04:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram:
Purgatory was "invented" by the Church hierarchy in the early centuries of Christianity in order to provide an alternative to the stark choice between heaven and hell. Therefore, whether or not Purgatory is "factual" is debatable.

*ahem* Lilly's tid-bit o'the day:

Fish was not always the chosen food for Lenten Fridays for Catholics. One of the Pope's brother's was in the fishing industry, which was in a severe slump at the time. So, all of a sudden it was required that Catholics eat fish on Fridays and the fishing industry survived.

Now you know.

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Old 04-01-2002, 07:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram:
Purgatory was "invented" by the Church hierarchy in the early centuries of Christianity in order to provide an alternative to the stark choice between heaven and hell. Therefore, whether or not Purgatory is "factual" is debatable.
Purgatory is supposedly supported by one of the two books of the Maccabees, which is omitted by Protestant Bibles as "apocryphal." But I've read the passage itself; dreadfully obscure.

However, much of it is a human semantical distinction. If you read the Apostles Creed, it often says that, upon Jesus' death and resurrection, he "descended into hell" to bring the souls into heaven. Now since most don't believe that the most evil of people went from hell into heaven, many think of this "hell" as actually being this concept of "purgatory," a place of purification for those souls who are not perfect enough to enter heaven, but not evil enough to warrant eternal damnation.

I've always found this to be more compassionate than the Calvinist belief that led God to be more of a tyrant, who whimsically decided which of His creation would rot in hell and which ones would be in heaven, with absolutely no room to budge.

Melon

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Old 04-01-2002, 07:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
I've always found this to be more compassionate than the Calvinist belief that led God to be more of a tyrant, who whimsically decided which of His creation would rot in hell and which ones would be in heaven, with absolutely no room to budge.
I don't believe in Purgatory, but I must agree with you if you don't believe the Calvinist viewpoint, either. I believe that God knows where people will spend eternity (simply because he knows the future), but he does not make that decision for them.
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Old 04-01-2002, 08:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
Jesus told Judas that it would have been better for him if had never been born.
Where??

I actually don't recall if Judas went to heaven actually. Perhaps they taught it to us in Elementary school. I'm not sure.

Had Judas not betryaed Jesus, Jesus would have died for our sins anyway. Judas was simply a...what, pawn? And he was forgiven. What if, say, someone robs a man on the street. But, if he hadn't mugged the man, the man would have crossed the steert at the precise moment that a car came by, Thus, the muggeer has really saved the man's life. Is this acceptable? Will the mugger be forgiven?


I've always like the "god is not a tyrannt' belief and believed in Purgatory.

If our relationship is based upon our relationship w/ Jesus, then Judas, who betrayed him, and Peter, who betrayed him, were forgiven. Would the mugger be forgiven? Would I be forgiven for betraying Christ?



[This message has been edited by The_Sweetest_Thing (edited 04-01-2002).]
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Old 04-01-2002, 09:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:
Where??
Had Judas not betryaed Jesus, Jesus would have died for our sins anyway. Judas was simply a...what, pawn? And he was forgiven. If our relationship is based upon our relationship w/ Jesus, then Judas, who betrayed him, and Peter, who betrayed him, were forgiven. Would the mugger be forgiven? Would I be forgiven for betraying Christ?
[This message has been edited by The_Sweetest_Thing (edited 04-01-2002).]
Matthew 26:24
"...but how terrible it will be for my betrayer. Far better for him if he had never been born"
Sweetest, where do you get the idea that Judas was forgiven? The Bible doesn't say that.
When I said that our eternal destiny depends on our relationship with Jesus, what I'm saying is that if you accept Christ as Savior, you have forgiveness.
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Old 04-01-2002, 10:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono:
Only god knows the answer.And nobody else.
Truer words were never spoken in this thread

80s is right, too. Your being saved does not depend on the amount of prayers you say, or the amount of good things you do. It is all about your relationship with God.

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Old 04-01-2002, 10:34 PM   #16
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Ah...I've heard this story too. I guess it goes with many of the other made up or legalistic "traditions" begun in the church (any church) that are completely unnecessary!


Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly:
*ahem* Lilly's tid-bit o'the day:

Fish was not always the chosen food for Lenten Fridays for Catholics. One of the Pope's brother's was in the fishing industry, which was in a severe slump at the time. So, all of a sudden it was required that Catholics eat fish on Fridays and the fishing industry survived.

Now you know.

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Old 04-01-2002, 10:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Sweetest, where do you get the idea that Judas was forgiven? The Bible doesn't say that.
When I said that our eternal destiny depends on our relationship with Jesus, what I'm saying is that if you accept Christ as Savior, you have forgiveness.
I think they mentioned it to us in Catholic School (Elementary and High School.) Adn maybe I've seen Jesus Christ Superstar too many times. I always thought he had been forgiven. If you take what Jesus said on the cross, maybe. But I thought there was something else. I have no Bible here, so I can't check.


So, if Judas/a murderer accepted Jesus at the last minute, he/she would go to heaven like nothing had ever happened?

If God knew that Judas was to betray Jesus, did he plan this? If so, then does God plan everything else/ Does he plan for car aciidents, disease? Does he plan that So-and-so will murder you-know-who?? If so, then why would so-and-so be punished? God knew...

(Sorry. DOn't think that I'm trying to pick a fight. These are questions I've always, ALWAYS had)

[This message has been edited by The_Sweetest_Thing (edited 04-01-2002).]
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Old 04-01-2002, 10:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

I don't believe in Purgatory, but I must agree with you if you don't believe the Calvinist viewpoint, either. I believe that God knows where people will spend eternity (simply because he knows the future), but he does not make that decision for them.
For hundreds of years (since John Wesley, if not earlier) theologians have used this doctrine to make Calvin's doctrine of "the elect" seem less offensive, and I don't buy it.

If God, observing our space-time universe that he keeps in a little jar, "foreknows" that Bob will die an unbeliever 50 years from now, then our universe is not open-ended. There really is no possibility that Bob will follow God instead of rejecting Him, and any of Bob's conceptions of free will with respect to this matter are an illusion.

So does God really "foreknow" the eternal destinies of every human soul? The apostle Paul seems to think so (cf. Romans 8:29-30).

But consider this: God didn't have to create man. He could have been perfectly content with a universe filled with animals and plants that don't rebel against Him, but he chose to create man anyway. Did God really "foreknow" that man would rebel against Him, plunge into sin and wreck his beautiful universe? If so, why did God make man into the first place? Genesis 6 says that God was grieved that he had made man on the Earth, which seems to me to indicate that before the fall, man did indeed have absolute free will--that God had intended for man to use his free will to live in harmony with Him and His creation, but man turned against Him.

Also consider this: the pages of the Bible are filled with the prayers of intercessors. These men and women prayed as if their prayers could make a difference in the world. Now if the entire fate of the universe is "foreknown" by God, then intercessory prayer is nothing more than a form of therapy, but I don't see it described that way in the Bible.

The Bible is full of prophecies, so there must be some room in the universe for "predestined" events, but I don't think it's so obvious that every single event in the universe up to and including the eternal destiny of every human soul is "foreknowable".

That's about all the metaphysics I can handle for now. Good night.
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Old 04-02-2002, 02:14 AM   #19
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If we needed to ponder all the tough questions in order to be saved, only intellectuals would get into heaven. When it's too confusing, try going back to basics, Sweetest_Thing; it may help?

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Old 04-02-2002, 02:47 AM   #20
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Isn't Purgatory mainly a Catholic thing? The reason I ask is that in Catholicism, the Bible is not seen as the sole source of revelation. Tradition, nature, and at least one other thing that I forget the name of are also accepted, although they are accorded a lesser degree of importance. Therefore, it's pointless to try and find a direct Biblical link to every single aspect of Catholic teaching. If you have a copy of the catechism of the Catholic Church, you can see where writings by Augustine and other important early christian thinkers are cited in relationship to teachings.
Some random traditional stories just seem to get passed on and on and on, and this Judas thing might be one of them. (One story I'm thinking of that I heard is the Peter being crucified upside down thing. This doesn't seem to have any biblical basis, either.)
I'm not judging anyone's practices as either right or wrong, so please don't flame me...also, if I'm at all wrong, or someone else is more articulate about this please correct me. It's been a while since I actually took any religion classes, and I, erm, haven't been practicing as much as I should lately.
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