A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
I guess that I should join the ACLU if I ever end up there.INDY500 said:
So our 200 year old plus Great Seal is unconstitutional? Well, you'll love our national motto.
"In God We Trust"
I guess that I should join the ACLU if I ever end up there.INDY500 said:
So our 200 year old plus Great Seal is unconstitutional? Well, you'll love our national motto.
"In God We Trust"
A_Wanderer said:Then the state isn't always on the side of justice
Your lying because if God is good and having God in government makes the government good.
(and I am aware that it is faulty logic but I dont think there is any reasoned and logical reason for arguing for the promotion of religion / influence of religion on the machinations of government)
A_Wanderer said:Those freedoms and the principles of secular governance are not the product of a Christian God they are born from the ideas of men in response to the shackles of theocracy, the groundwork for the liberal democracy extends furthur back than the reformation and it is the clear seperation of church and state (spelled out loud and clear in the US constitution) that came later on.
You are confusing secularism with the philosophy of secular humanism. One is a set of rules to live a life by (if you want to waste your time with a Godless religion) and the other is a seperation of Church and State. It is absurd to declare that a secular state is not condusive to religious freedom (look to the free secular countries - your own included) when it is that very state that will never be able to stop people from believing or forcing beliefs upon them.
INDY500 said:
But I do argue that a secular government that doesn't respect (that's the opposite of impugn) the role of religion or faith,
BonoVoxSupastar said:
So you can't respect the role of faith without putting the word God everywhere? Just as not acknowledging by name isn't ignoring.
The fact that you keep ignoring such logic and questions asked of you leads me to believe you are just spinning the wheels of your "status quo" defense.
maycocksean said:
Prove it.
Actually, I know you're being sarcastic. I just wanted to highlight once again that there just isn't Biblical evidence to support this perspective.
INDY500 said:
Acknowledging God is not promoting religion. .
INDY500 said:
I'm not sure what you're asking. What we now call the Judeo-Christian world-view, by questioning the authority of the State; from the Reformation, to the American revolution, to raising women from 2nd class status, to abolishing slavery, to civil rights, to protecting the unborn -- has sought to be on the side of the Just. And God is always on the side of Justice correct?
You can find scripture in Peter, Matthew and Romans about Christians submitting to governing bodies. But, we are told in Roman 13 "The authorities that exist have been established by God." In other words, the state, any state, is a delegated authority, not autonomous, and the order is:
God
Caesar
or later on:
God
King
But what to do when the state strays from God's Law and becomes unjust? Is it rex lex or lex rex?
INDY500 said:
So our 200 year old plus Great Seal is unconstitutional? Well, you'll love our national motto.
"In God We Trust"
INDY500 said:
Sure, we can trace it back through English Common Law, Conciliar Movement, Charlemange...but the reformation was key, followed by the treasonous idea put forth in the New World that power and rights come to the people directly from God, not through a monarch. Remove that notion from the American Revolution and you have, well, you have the French Revolution.
INDY500 said:
Well yeah, the idea being that religion should be a unifying force -- an influence but not an authority -- the "God" of public religion to be individually interpreted by one's own private religion or faith. So while the framers were steeped in Bible literacy, you're right, they did purposely avoid Christian symbolism in the constitution.
A tradition that continues to this day.
We acknowledge the Divine, we ask for His blessings and guidance, all the while mindful that we ask for a pluralistic society.
One nation, under God. That is our character, that is our heritage.
So why is it being attacked or denied? That would be my question.
Irvine511 said:
i can, in the eyes of a Buddhist, acknowledge a common Creator, a common Source, a common Origin. but to say "God" -- or, more specifically, when a white, heterosexual, male, midwesterner says "God" -- is to create an exclusivity that, in a few years, should i embrace this further, might kick my ass out of the club.
... They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.
It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.
INDY500 said:
Well, set aside that the Declaration also contains references to "the laws of nature and nature's God", "protection of Divine Providence", and "the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions."
Let's say, for a moment, that America was indeed founded on the Deist's values of secular Enlightenment as argued here.
Wait. Sorry, did I say heterosexual? I suppose while the business at hand is to revise American history to minimize the fundamental role that religion has played from our country's founding...heck, we might as well make Lincoln gay too.
INDY500 said:
Thanks for your posts. I've read them and appreciate the thought you've given them. All I can say is I believe there to be an ongoing intellectual and societal struggle between two world-views. Between the Judeo-Christian philosophy and materialism or secular values. (Islam is a 3rd) I believe the Judeo-Christian model to be better for mankind. The better to deal with questions of morality and the better to confront true evil in the world.
INDY500 said:
Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century
and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging,
unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
INDY500 said:Maycocksean,
Thanks for your posts. I've read them and appreciate the thought you've given them.
INDY500 said:
All I can say is I believe there to be an ongoing intellectual and societal struggle between two world-views. Between the Judeo-Christian philosophy and materialism or secular values. (Islam is a 3rd) I believe the Judeo-Christian model to be better for mankind. The better to deal with questions of morality and the better to confront true evil in the world.
INDY500 said:
Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
INDY500 said:So here, in the United States, what is a Christian to do? Suppress our moral conscience, or openly support public policy in line with Judeo-Christian morals? Argue the issues at hand solely in secular terms, or use religious language and arguments? Fight for justice, or accept injustice?
INDY500 said:
Accept the wisdom of John Adams "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." Or follow in the footsteps of Europe?
INDY500 said:Civilization has never seen a greater success than the American experiment. Public religion and faith, while only one of many, have been a vital thread in that great tapestry...let's not remove it.
phillyfan26 said:So, because we have things that mention in God in government documents right now, that's the way it should be?
INDY500 said:
Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
INDY500 said:Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
INDY500 said:
Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
anitram said:
Just ridiculous.
Europeans are now unintellectual? Says the guy who lives in a country where more than half the population believes in some kind of creationism and what, 3/4 can't identify the UK on a map? I mean, honestly.
Yeah since as an atheist one can't have a problem with backwards minded religiousity that wants to marry the state to religion and enforce the retrogressive and bigoted elements of the religion.Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
Anti-intellectualism is a defining part of what makes one cultured.Irvine511 said:
but don't you see? this is evidence of greater intellectual curiosity.
conservative Americans are fearless enough to dare to question the scientific status quo.
LJT said:Excuse me while I squirm my way out of the primordial ooze of Europe.
I do believe Ireland is ranked higher than the US for standard of living, greatest country in the world I say
But what do I know i'm just some dumb, amoral, uncultured hick.