Who to "Liberate" Next?

[Klaus]

Seems like Mr Sharon wouldn't have given back these..

some quotes from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2949741.stm

Mr Sharon listed a number of "precise and specific" demands that he wanted the US to put to Damascus. They include ousting the Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Damascus and removing Iranian Revolutionary Guards from the Bekaa Valley.

Israel also wants Syria to halt its co-operation with Iran, remove Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon's border with Israel area and disband Hezbollah missiles deployed along the Israeli border.

Mr Sharon's spokesman, Raanan Gussin, told Israel radio that Syria continued to develop and purchase weapons of mass destruction and possessed missiles "that cover the whole range of the state of Israel".

Syria's "arsenal of chemical weapons", he said, was "large".

Bu Syrian foreign ministry spokeswoman Bouthana Shaaban has insisted "the only country in the region which has chemical, biological and nuclear weapons is Israel".

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said in Ankara that Syria might support an attack against Israel in the future. He urged Damascus to "focus on the changing realities and work for peace".

Some Arab countries want to make the Middle east a WMD-free zone. And ask for a UN resolution to enforce that.

One mayor reason for that approach might be that Israel has more WMDs than all the other arabic countries together?

Klaus

 

[Klaus]

Some statements from german press to the next "libertion"

Die Welt: (http://www.welt.de/)

"Political Washington is threatening but the military is silent. That shows that there are no operational plans in progress."

TAZ: (http://www.taz.de)

"If Bush's re-election in 18 months should be endangered by the poor economic situation, his advisers could consider a new confrontation useful to get the voters back behind the commander-in-chief in the White House,"

Klaus

 

[Electric Blue]

must not have been Libya, maybe Texas?

lol I'm sure it must have been Sierra Leone. It's quite ironic Libya is currently presiding over the UN Human Rights Commission, but if we had to exclude all countries that have ever violated human rights, there wouldn't be any countries left, I guess. And I don't think Libya tells the other member countries how to vote, either.

 

[Electric Blue]

(okay, my belated response due to computer problems, for what it's worth...)

Guess who offered to give Syria 99% of the Golan Heights back despite Syria's invasions, terrorism and refusal to recognize it as a state? Israel. How many of you know how many Israely civilians were killed by Syrian artillery every year when they owned the Golan Heights? Syria supports Hezebolah and Humas, two terrorist organizations! Where is the Human Rights Commissions outcry over that?

Hi Sting,

I think we may have gotten off on the wrong foot here... I didn't have the intention to fingerpoint Israel, saying "they've done this and that wrong over the years blah blah blah...", sorry if you had that impression. I think it was Basstrap who brought up Israel in this thread, saying Israel occupies a part of Lebanon. You rightly corrected him, and I just wanted to give some more information, I thought he had mixed up Lebanon and Syria, you see. And the part about the UN Human Rights Commission condemning Israel's human rights record: I read it at Yahoo that day, I thought it was interesting to post that, and again, I meant no harm.

Of course it's horrible innocent civilians are the victim of an ongoing conflict, on BOTH sides of the border.

Shouldn't Israel give 100% of the Golan Heights back, given it's not their territory anyway? Anyhow, it's sad Syria and Israel are at a deadlock over the Golan Heights, Israel only wants to give the land back if Syria signs a peace treaty first, and Syria only wants to sign a peace treaty when Israel first gives the Golan Heights back. Let's hope they both realize this can't go on forever, for the sake of their people.

Its sad that Israel has to put up with this shit after everything they have been through over the past 50 years, not to mention what many of them went through while they were still in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. We know some of the strongest opposition to Israel comes from the continent where 6 million Jews were slaughtered.

Oh here we go again. Do you know how sick and tired I am of being accused of anti-semitism whenever one dares to criticize the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians?? I really expected something more eloquent from you, Sting. Just because the Jews were once the victim of a horrible massacre, doesn't give them the right to oppress other peoples.

There are only 3 nations in Europe that have a higher standard of living than the USA, Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden. Canada and Australia are the other two nations ahead of the USA in standard of living.

You are talking about the UN Human Development Index, right? There are indeed 3 nations in Europe that have a higher standard of living than the USA, and these are Norway, Sweden and Belgium, and not Switzerland, as you said.

 

[verte76]

Hell, there are Jewish people in Israel who love Israel but do not approve of their government's policies as per Palestinians. They don't love the terrorist outfits, either. There are alot of innocent people on both sides of the dispute. I imagine most Palestinians, most Syrians, *and* most Israelis etc, etc just are ordinary people trying to make a living, raising their kids and doing their best. I have friends in Israel and I worry about their safety sometimes. During the war I was petrified of an attack on Israel. Fortunately it didn't happen. Thank God.

 

[STING2]

Electric Blue,


"Oh here we go again. Do you know how sick and tired I am of being accused of anti-semitism whenever one dares to criticize the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians?? I really expected something more eloquent from you, Sting. Just because the Jews were once the victim of a horrible massacre, doesn't give them the right to oppress other peoples."

That was not directed against you personally, but against a lot of people in Europe and a lot of different governments. I don't find Europe's treatment Israel in light of what Israel has had to suffer for the past 50 years, acceptable. Few European countries would tolerate what Israel has had to go through, if they were located within the same borders and in the middle east.

There was a UN peace plan in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel on the day of its independence. Honestly, who is acting uncivilized? The Jews in Israel have been the victims of terror and war for the past 50 years. I find it surprising that you do not appreciate that.

We have members here at interference that have to worry about going to a disco Israel and getting blown up while perhaps listening to their favorite band. I would hope that you would at least understand the situation they have to go through everyday. Don't tell them their not being oppressed.

It is the people of Israel that have been oppressed in 4 wars, 1948,1956,1967,1973 and smaller raids incursions and terrorism for 50 years. If the Arabs had simply accepted the UN peace plan in 1948 instead of acting like uncivilized people this mess would not exist and the Palestinians would have 3 times the amount of land their ever going to get from any peace deal today. There are people that live in far worse conditions in other parts of the world, but they don't strap bombs to their bodies and run into disco's killing innocent teenagers listening to U2. Its about time the Palestinians developed a culture and political strategy that has a decent chance of giving them independence. 50 years of committing violence and terrorism has only made their living standards and position worse. Its time to try something different that actually has a chance of working.

 

[Man Inside The Child]

I'm with you Electric blue....

Sting2, I'll repeat myself as you have:

As far as suicide bombers go... You're right it is a terrible act and it must be horrifying for you not to be able to go to a bar and listen to U2. But the Palestinians suicide bombers are a product of Israeli oppression and humiliation. It is all this ? the continuous oppression, the constant humiliation ?
which has given birth to the suicide bomber. The suicide bombers consider themselves freedom fighters fighting against the daily murder, destruction of their homes in favour of new settlements in Palestinian territory, the destruction of their stores and olive gardens.... all in favour of new settlements, therby shrinking Palestinian territory. They have lost everything, their homes, families, and land and stores... More importantly they've lost their freedom and live in shrinking isolation, poverty, and opression.



After 1948, Palestinians were literally robbed, displaced, forced out, ethnic cleansed, or forced to move to their new "territory".... In May 1948 the Zionists proclaimed the State of Israel as the homeland for the world's Jews. In 1947 Jews had formed less than a quarter of Palestine's population and that's with the immigration of Jews after the Holocaust. Even within the portion of Palestine allocated by the 1947 UN partition plan to the ?Jewish state?, Arabs were the majority. Zionists claim that the Arabs' rejection of the partition plan means that the Palestinian Arabs have only themselves to blame for the further seizure of land by Israel between 1948 and 1949 (and, additionally in 1967). But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors.

As far as deaths go, in this current intifada, sparked by the continuation of jewish settlements on Palestinian territory,
for every 10 Palestinians who dies, one Jew dies.... This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions.

As far as being in a nightclub goes, and fearing a suicide bomber/freedom fighter to blow himself up, perhaps you should lobby your Israeli government to withdraw from Palestinian territory and stop the daily bloodshed, seisure, and destruction of Palestinian homes in favour of new settlements. Why should you expect to live in peace and harmony when just a few miles away, your government, along with American weapons and support continues to reppress Palestinians.... They are being killed, tortured, oppressed, humiliated, and stripped of their right to live in peace on what little remains of their land.

ANd the idea that you give, "50 years of terrorism"... Do you expect an invading, colonizing force to be greeted with flowers? It's 50 years of war - If someone takes everything away from you: freedom, land, rights... If your family and friends are murderd, would you sit and watch or would you fight against the injustice and inhumane aggression and oppression... And if they take away your business.... If your home is bulldozed with your family or friends inside... IF your daughter, mother, father is killed at the hands of Israeli colonization... Who wouldn't fight back against such autrosities? Do you expect Palestinians to simply watch Israeli's colonize with American weapons and support... Who wouldn't fight back... If the Israeli colonists took everything away from you, murdered your family, stole your belongings, bulldozed your home, robbed your land, stole your business, inherited your olive gardens, deprived you of your freedom.... Who would simply sit and watch this happen for 50 years?

It's only human nature to fight back... But Sting2 be serious... to say that the Palestinians are terrorists for defending their right to a homeland, their rich history, their culture..... To say that they are terrorists because they fought back and tried to defend themselves against their illigel occcupation... To fight back to clame some sort of justice, to fight the daily murder of Palestinians, to fight the power of oppression. Palestinians are freedom fighters and why should they roll over and allow a foreign force to invade their country, divide it, and continue to illigelly build settlements on what little remains of their land.

I'm an internation law student and I've done alot of research on the Palestinian/Israeli problem... I've read the story on both sides and let me tell you, I've quite easily concluded that the Palestinian's have been robbed of their homeland at the hands of the Israeli's with American support.

Liberate the Palestinians next.... They've been deprived of their humanity and freedom.... The world, the U.N. must move to liberate the Palestinians... It's about time we stop the 50 year suffering at the hands of Israeli colonists.

 

[STING2]

Man Inside The Child,

I'll let you read what I posted in the other thread to keep this brief.

First your characterization of the Israely's as invading colonist is a false one. Israely's have lived in the area as long as the Palestinians regardless of the numbers at any particular time. In the wake of the end of the Ottoman Empire, Jews had every right to form a state just like the Muslims did. The UN had the perfect plan for the people that had both been living there and rightfully owned the land they were living in 1948. The Arabs rejected a fair peace plan and invaded Israel. 5 Arab Countries invaded Israel in 1948. How is that an act of Justice, to invade a country who's existence has been approved by the United Nations. They invaded it to destroy and wipe the Jews from the middle east. If they had succeeded, there would have been a holocaust nearly as bad as the one the Jews suffered in Europe in World War II. If the 1948, peace plan was so wrong, why are the Arabs essentially asking for the same thing now! They could of had the same peace 50 years ago without all this mess!

Even if the Jews, were "invading colonist" which they are NOT, there would still be know rational justification for targeting and killing innocent Israely teenagers in a Disco perhaps listening to U2! I find it sick that you would attempt to justify that and instead of calling it terrorism you would call it the act of a freedom fighter! The teens in the disco listening to U2 have nothing to do with a Palistinians mistaken belief or feeling of oppression and humiliation!

The Israely Defense force is totally justified in going after terrorist that hide among the Palestinian civilians. The Israely Defense force targets terrorist and not innocent civilians. Innocent civilians are accidently killed in anti-terror operations because the Palestinian terrorist attempt to hide and blend in with the civilian population. This is part of the reason why the terrorist hide among the Palestinian civilian population, to ensure members of their population are killed even by accident, so as to accuse the Israely's of targeting civilians which is rubish. If the Israely goal was to kill innocent civilians, all the Palestinian civilians in the West Bank and Gaza would have been killed 3 decades ago!

Even if there was this freedom fighter justification for the Palestinian Terrorist, its clear that if their goal is an independent state, their strategy and tactics have been totally ineffective for 50 years now. Violence and terrorism have failed to produce an independent state and they never will! Israel is to powerful for Palestinian terrorist.

It would be smart if the Palestinians adopted tactics that had a chance of actually working. African Americans in the USA achieved civil rights through non-violent action. The Non-violent action was successful, because US democracy was suceptible to such non-violent action.

Is there such a thing as a Non-violent Palestinian movement for independence? I don't think so! Their strategy has been violence and terrorism for 50 years. That strategy is not going to give them an independent state! Since Israel is a democracy with laws, its about time they took a page out of Martin Luther King's book and attempted Non-violent action to achieve their goal of independent statehood! Israel is very susceptible to such action because it is a democracy with laws. Also, Jews would be far more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause if it was "Non-violent" one that was not attempting to murder them in their homes, Schools, Buses, Cafe's, and other places. The citizens of Israel would then be more likely to push for leaders and governments that would more swiftly bring about and independent Palestine, because their security would not longer be threatened.

Would it hurt the Palestinians to stop the terrorism and use only non-violent action to achieve independence? I think not since the violence and terror option has only made things increasingly difficult and worse for the average Palestinian over the past 50 years!

I'd like to inform you your not the only one at FYM that has studied International Relations and Law and this particular situation in great detail from both sides!

Israely citizens deserve to live in peace and security and should not have to fear going to the local pub.

Its about time Palestinian terrorist and Arab aggression against Israel stopped. It has achieved NOTHING in 50 years and will never achieve an independent Palestine. Only through negotiation and non-violent action will the Palestinians ever get and independent State! Its about time the Palestinians stopped the ineffective violence and tried something that might actually work!

 

[verte76]

I'm for a stable and peaceful Israel *and* a peaceful and stable Palestinian state. I wish these guys would put their guns down and let this happen. I'm really tired of reading about all of this hate and killing and such that's going on.

 

[Man Inside The Child]

Sting,

You know what, believe it or not, I agree with you, I feel that the Palestinians do need a Martin Luther King and an non-violent approach to the scenerio, unfortunately Yasser Arafat as an uneducated, embezzling, guerilla fighter with little to offer the Palestinians. I've actually said that before, that they should mimic the African-American movement and strive to gain support both domestically and internationally.

But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power.... That is what has spurred such retaliation from the Palestinians. That is what has spurred the suicide bombing... Suicide bombing is a sad reality in Palestine... Everything has been taken away from them and they feel as though they must give up their lives to give freedom to future generations... You may say that attacking a disco is harsh, and yes i think your right, but so is bulldozing a home with a family still inside... Such events create the suicide bomber... Do I agree with suicide bombing... No, I actually agree with your point that there should be a non violent approach. But we are looking on from a position of peace, having not lived through the oppression, aggression, and murder.

As Colombia and Berkely Professor/Intellectual suggests "Sharon government's preposterous claim that Israel is the victim, the Palestinians the aggressors in the four- decade war that the Israeli army has waged against civilians, property and institutions without mercy or discrimination. The result today is that the Palestinians are locked up in 220 ghettos controlled by the army; American-supplied Apache helicopters, Merkava tanks, and F-16s mow down people, houses, olive groves and fields on a daily basis; schools and universities as well as businesses and civil institutions are totally disrupted; hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed and tens of thousands injured (that's only in the past year); Israel's assassinations of Palestinian leaders continue; unemployment and poverty stand at about 50 per cent -- and all this while General Anthony Zinni drones on about Palestinian "violence" to the wretched Arafat, who can't even leave his office in Ramallah because he is imprisoned there by Israeli tanks, while his several tattered security forces scamper about trying to survive the destruction of their offices and barracks. " What I find interesting is that "Israel's assassination of Palestinian leaders continue"... Perhaps the Israeli's prefer the poor and corrupt leadership of Yasser Arafat as they continually hunt down any potential leader attempting to start a freedom movement. I'm with you though Sting, I want to see non-violent resistence, but the Israeli government must allow some sort of leadership to arise.


We must understand that the Palestinians and Israeli's are two communities of suffering, but at the present time, one has tremendous power. The other is a victim of this former victim. But on a positive note... all human conflict is created by humans and it can be solved by humans."

I'm with you Sting, the violence must stop, the suicide bombing must stop... but that will only stop when Israel seizes the continued building of settlements on what little remains of Palestinian territory... Are you with me?

 

[verte76]

I don't like either Sharon or Arafat. The Palestinians do need a leader like Martin Luther King, and Sharon isn't the leader Israel needs. If they are going to stop the unfortunate violence and killings and such they need to make some major changes on both sides of the conflict. Just my purple tuppence's worth.

 

[John Milton]

If 9/11 has showed us anything, is that this world is far from safe. My world was transformed on that day, and I know I wasn't the only one.

The world has changed, we can either keep our heads in the sand or act, our president is doing exactly that. He could have done the easiest thing, he could have done what France and others chose to do, but no, he's gone ahead with what he feels is right and I support him 100%.
Now, you can try to accuse him of this and that, of forgetting the 'real' issues such as finance and economy, but the fact is he is confronting all of these issues head on, as well as trying to protect the world from people like Saddam. I don't agree with this 'liberation', it WAS liberation for the Iraqis, and it will be liberation for the others who are oppressed by their leaders.
Who will be next to be liberated? I don't know, but there are far too many oppresive regimes out there who could do with some democracy for their people.

Peace to all.

 

[STING2]

Man Inside The Suitcase,

My response to your repost of this post is in the Free Your Mind main area forum where your latest post here was origionally posted.

 

[Klaus]

John Milton:

This world was never safe - now the globalisation of violence reached US territory.
We planted the demon seed - now we get back what generations before us screwed up with their "me first" politics.

The liberation of the world is a noble idea, but as long as there are too many economic interests, and the "liberator" uses his liberation to get companies of his country to take advance of the liberation there will be a bad taste left which could lead to violence in long term against the liberators.

Remember what we did in the past - our countries never said "let's install a dictator" they allways promised that it would be the best for our and their safety...

Klaus

 

[sharky]

woohoo! Iran is BAD!

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has warned the Iranian government to stay out of Iraq and not interfere with the country in its "road to democracy," the White House said Wednesday.

While not explicitly confirming reports that Iranian agents were making their way into Iraq, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "We have concerns about this matter.

"We have well-known channels of communication with Iran, and we have made clear to Iran that we oppose the outside interference in Iraq's road to democracy. ... Infiltration of agents to destabilize the Shiite population would clearly fall into that category."

A Pentagon official Wednesday told CNN that intelligence reports received in the past few days indicate an unknown number of Iranian-backed agents have moved into southern Iraq to promote Shiite and Iranian interests with the Shia community there.

The reports indicate the Iranians are operating around Najaf, Karbala and Basra. Some of them may be members of the Badr Brigade, a Shiite militia group based in Iran, this official said.

A majority of Iraq's population are Shiite Muslims, and thousands have attended rallies calling for the creation of an Islamic state in Iraq and demanding that U.S-led coalition forces leave.

Fleischer would not say at what level or through what means the message was communicated to Iran. The United States and Iran do not have diplomatic relations.

 

[Klaus]

*rotfl* it's ok that america defends itself around the whole globe but it's not ok if Iran sends secret service men to the neigbour country where there is anarchy at the moment?

Or do we need someone who's guilty if the democracy approach fails?

Klaus

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

"Outside interference"? What in the world does the United States consider itself to be if not an outside influence? Perhaps this is just another example of the US preparing to attack another country in the region, as it has done in accusing Syria of giving shelter to fleeing Iraqi government officials.

 

[Klaus]

right fizz, that might be true.
US media also didn't mention that Syria didn't allow Abu Abbas to enter Syria twice in the last months.
That wouldn't fit in the image of a terrorism supporting country where we have to prepare for war i guess.

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

I know your hoping that democracy fails in Iraq, but did it ever occur to you that the anarchy that is being provoked is influenced by these Iranian secret service men? Its certainly not above a government that supports Suicide Bombers in Israel and their attacks on Childern in Disco's.

Also in regards to Abu Abbas, the fact that Syria did not let him into the country certainly wasn't because they did not sympathize with his prior actions. In fact, he or several of his work mates probably recieved their training in Syria.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:

You are absolutely wrong at this point Sting!
I'd love to be proven wrong and i'd love to see that there was a domino effect and we see lots of arab democracys in the near future.
It's just because of my experience (from reading history, no personal) that i don't believe it.
If you think how few soldiers were there to ensure that there is no loitering i guess it was naive to think that there was no anarchy there. Saddams control over iraq vanished - that's a fantastic thing! I'm glad it happened so fast and i'm glad that there were just a few WMDs used in this progress.
But you can't expect that the police continues to have control over a country which was liberated - please tell me that you didn't expect this.

Afik it was the cleric leader not the elected (!) political leader of that country, imho it would be wise to support that man to get more control over his country to speed up the democratic movement of Iran.
And i'm not talking about helping him by selling him WMDs

Yo might be right about Abbas, but at least Syria learned his lesson and they didn't want to get trouble because of that retired terrorist - and that one dosn't fit into the picture Foxnews draws of Syria - if they are willing to do what the western world expects, why does the US government talk to them like they talked to Iraq shortly before the war?

What do you think of the Syrian approach to make a UN resolution to declare the complete arab region as a WMD free zone?

Klaus

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

STING,
Are you suggesting that a few Iranian people who have gone into Iraq have miraculously converted hundreds of thousands of people to Islam and persuaded them to call for an Islamic government? Couldn't it simply be that the people of Iraq are already of that opinion and now have the opportunity to put their views forward?

And also, I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I think it's inappropriate to suggest that Klaus doesn't support democracy in Iraq. He's never given that impression in any of his posts, he might have said he's sceptical that it will happen (and quite honestly, so am I!) but I've never seen him say he doesn't support democratic government in Iraq.

 

[Electric Blue]

That was not directed against you personally, but against a lot of people in Europe and a lot of different governments. I don't find Europe's treatment Israel in light of what Israel has had to suffer for the past 50 years, acceptable. Few European countries would tolerate what Israel has had to go through, if they were located within the same borders and in the middle east.

Would you like to be reminded of slavery in America and the Ku Kux Klan (to name a few) every time the US criticizes an African country on its human rights violations? Gee, the recent sanctions Bush imposed on Zimbabwe must have been inspired by racism, eh!? Now, I'm not saying we should shut up about these dark pages of history, that's not the point, but I'm afraid they are being used to undermine and downplay someone's arguments. The classic "shoot the messenger, not the message".

"...not directed against you personally but against a lot of people in Europe and a lot of different governments."

A lot of people in Europe, you must be talking about the extreme- right movements in Europe? You'd be surprised how divided even the extreme right is over Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinean conflict. Before the Iraq war, Jean-Marie Le Pen encouraged neofascist groups to go fighting alongside Saddam against the US/UK forces. J?rg Haider has written a book about his meetings with his good friend Saddam Hussein, and here, in good ol' Belgium, an extreme-right party is profiling itself as very prozionist. While this party is trying to cover up some traditional negationist feelings with its hardline members, they are trying to woo the Jewish community to vote for them in the upcoming parliamentary elections. Sick, isn't it. Even more unbelievable is the fact that some Jews are falling for this. Yes, the world has gone crazy.

Would you care to explain what you mean by "a lot of different governments", preferrably without mentioning WWII?

There was a UN peace plan in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel on the day of its independence. Honestly, who is acting uncivilized? The Jews in Israel have been the victims of terror and war for the past 50 years. I find it surprising that you do not appreciate that.

I've never claimed that the Jews in Israel haven't suffered in the past 50 years. They have suffered a lot over the past 50 years, but so have the Palestinians. Both sides have a responsibility in how this conflict has escalated, and should take up responsibility to solve it. You can never come to peace when only one side is prepared to make concessions, and the other side isn't.

We have members here at interference that have to worry about going to a disco Israel and getting blown up while perhaps listening to their favorite band. I would hope that you would at least understand the situation they have to go through everyday. Don't tell them their not being oppressed.

It is horrible that the Israelis risk being blown to pieces on a night out, and I thank God every day I don't have to live in this kind of situation. Do you also understand the situation the Palestinian people have to go through every day? I bet they don't even have discos in the occupied territories, let alone a computer or an internet connection to surf the Interference boards. And there you've got one of the root causes of terrorism: poverty, and the related lack of education. It's preposterous the Israeli government can decide when the Palestinians are allowed to leave their houses and when they aren't. It's preposterous Palestinian kids can't go to school (and don't say their schools are just "terrorist training facilities") when the Israeli government imposes house-arrest and Jewish kids can get a proper education. It's preposterous Palestinians have to go through a humiliating procedure at the check-points every time they want to cross the border - or worse, the borders are just closed. I can go on if you like, but I think Man Inside The Child did a good job explaining my point of view on this matter.

It is the people of Israel that have been oppressed in 4 wars, 1948,1956,1967,1973 and smaller raids incursions and terrorism for 50 years. If the Arabs had simply accepted the UN peace plan in 1948 instead of acting like uncivilized people this mess would not exist and the Palestinians would have 3 times the amount of land their ever going to get from any peace deal today. There are people that live in far worse conditions in other parts of the world, but they don't strap bombs to their bodies and run into disco's killing innocent teenagers listening to U2. Its about time the Palestinians developed a culture and political strategy that has a decent chance of giving them independence. 50 years of committing violence and terrorism has only made their living standards and position worse. Its time to try something different that actually has a chance of working.

I think we can go and keep discussing who is being oppressed and who is not, but honestly, I don't think the Israeli people are the ones being oppressed - and I'm not talking about the numerous wars Israel has fought with its Arab neighbours, but I'm talking about Israel's relation with the Palestinians. Tell me, how can you be oppressed when you've got a US-sponsored military and the unconditional support of one of the most powerful nations on planet earth? Terrorism is a traditional tool of self-defense when people are desperate and don't have the political or military power to stand up to a much, much more powerful nation - see Chechnya, Northern Ireland and so forth. And no, I don't - in any way - condone the horrors of terrorism, hell no. I want a tough approach to terrorism, but a humane treatment of the Palestinian people who have nothing to do with this shit - is that so much to ask for?

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

Did you expect there to be no looting at all? That in a country of 24 million people, US soldier in the middle of fighting a 430,000 man military could be everywhere in the large cities at all times, considering there was only a total of 100,000 troops in Iraq and less than 25% of them were actually combat troops!

Much of this looting occured in between the time in which the Iraqi military completely fell apart and the US came in, in large force. Combat operations are not technically over event today yet.
That there would be a couple of days of looting was enivitable and unstoppable. There has been looting in every regime change I can think of from Eastern Europe to the Former Soviet Union.


"And i'm not talking about helping him by selling him WMDs"

I've said it once I'll say it again, THE USA NEVER SOLD WMDs TO IRAQ! Because sanctions were not on Iraq in the late 1980s, biological samples of NON-WEAPONIZED Anthrax were transfered to Iraq. Such samples have very beneficial medical uses and Iraq was not the only country that has recieve this. Iraq like other countries asked for such cultures for its obvious medical use. In order for ANTHRAX, which naturally occurs in the environment, to become a weapon, it has to be WEAPONIZED which was done by Iraq.

"What do you think of the Syrian approach to make a UN resolution to declare the complete arab region as a WMD free zone?"

I actually think thats a good idea if the non-democratic regimes will allow the intrusive inspections and other measures necessary to make it happen.

 

[STING2]

Fizzing,

"Are you suggesting that a few Iranian people who have gone into Iraq have miraculously converted hundreds of thousands of people to Islam and persuaded them to call for an Islamic government? Couldn't it simply be that the people of Iraq are already of that opinion and now have the opportunity to put their views forward?" Uh no, and yes.

But I'm not naive enough to believe the Iranians were there to hand out flowers and take pictures.


"And also, I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I think it's inappropriate to suggest that Klaus doesn't support democracy in Iraq. He's never given that impression in any of his posts, he might have said he's sceptical that it will happen (and quite honestly, so am I!) but I've never seen him say he doesn't support democratic government in Iraq"

I think your right. But both you and Klaus did support actions which would have continued the reign of Saddams regime which would have prevented democracy from coming about.

 

[STING2]

Electric Blue,

"Would you like to be reminded of slavery in America and the Ku Kux Klan (to name a few) every time the US criticizes an African country on its human rights violations? Gee, the recent sanctions Bush imposed on Zimbabwe must have been inspired by racism, eh!? Now, I'm not saying we should shut up about these dark pages of history, that's not the point, but I'm afraid they are being used to undermine and downplay someone's arguments. The classic "shoot the messenger, not the message". "

Lets put things in context here. Slavery happened in the USA over 140 years ago. Jews were being murdered in Europe on a mass scale 58 years ago. People who suffered that oppression and committed it or allowed it to happen are very much alive in Europe today. Thats not the same with the issue of Slavery. The USA lost more people in most of its wars combined to end slavery in 1865! I think there is a difference in time and its effect on current events. Certainly the events of the early 1940s have far greater influence, considering millions from that time are still alive. 1865 and earlier is obviously a different case. Lets also remember the scale of what happened in the early 1940s. 6 million Jews were massacred, Not enslaved, murdered! Over 75% of Europes prewar Jewish population murdered. Oh, and the Nazi's did have help one way or another in this operation from certain citizens through out Europe.

So we have the degree of the crime committed and the time in which it happened. World War II is not ancient history, no matter what the youth of today may think. Slavery in the USA for that matter is not either, but its easy to see why because of the time of the time the crime was committed and the degree of the crime committed, why the genoicide against the Jews in the early 1940s has more relevancy to today than slavery from another century.

I could be wrong on this, but Europes continued biased toward the Palestinians creates to many doubts. Their lack of objectivity led to media reports in Europe saying that a massacre involving perhaps thousands of people had happened at Jenin last year. UN teams went in and looked at the situation and found that only 48 civilians had been killed and all appeared to be accidents. There was no evidence that a single Israely soldier murdered a single innocent civilian at Jenin. I doubt that fact got much press in Europe though.

"I've never claimed that the Jews in Israel haven't suffered in the past 50 years. They have suffered a lot over the past 50 years, but so have the Palestinians. Both sides have a responsibility in how this conflict has escalated, and should take up responsibility to solve it. You can never come to peace when only one side is prepared to make concessions, and the other side isn't."

The Israely's made concessions in 1948 and the UN had an excellent peace plan. The Arabs and Palestinians rejected it and savagely attacked Israel. 50 years later, the Palestinians seek a similar peace deal that will give them about 1/3 of what they could of had in 1948! Just think about it, they could of had 3 times as much land and 50 years of peace! But instead they tried to kill all the Jews in the area in the 1948 war.

Israel has offered plenty of concessions and now has peace with Egypt. They offered the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinians rejected it! They offered Syria 99% of the Golan Heights and they rejected it! Can you name a peace agreement that the Palestinians have ever accepted? Do Palestinian leaders understand the words compromise and consession?

"It's preposterous the Israeli government can decide when the Palestinians are allowed to leave their houses and when they aren't. It's preposterous Palestinian kids can't go to school (and don't say their schools are just "terrorist training facilities") when the Israeli government imposes house-arrest and Jewish kids can get a proper education. It's preposterous Palestinians have to go through a humiliating procedure at the check-points every time they want to cross the border - or worse, the borders are just closed. I can go on if you like, but I think Man Inside The Child did a good job explaining my point of view on this matter."

Not crazy at all if you have ever seen the aftermath of a suicide bombers attack. Would any of the above be happening if there was a culture of Non-violence in Palestine rather than one of terror? NO If poverty is indeed the key issue, why don't palestinians accept the peace deals that have been offered them, which is the best they will ever get? Why do they invest so much in committing violence against Israely's instead of focusing their resources to try and work with their problems caused by poverty.

There are countries in Africa where people live in far worse conditions than Palestinians but they don't try their problems by killing teens in disco's listening to U2! Such actions are simply retarded.

Also realize that Israel is a democracy! The people of Israel have chosen their government because they think it is the best one to keep them secure and provide a better life for them. They understand and know of the suffering of the Palestinians but are not about to relax legitamite security measure, that would make it open season on Israely childern for suicide bombers. The Israely people are well educated and understand the problems and their choice of leaderships and policies deserves far more respect from a continent that had very little respect for them 60 years ago.

"Terrorism is a traditional tool of self-defense when people are desperate and don't have the political or military power to stand up to a much, much more powerful nation - see Chechnya, Northern Ireland and so forth. And no, I don't - in any way - condone the horrors of terrorism, hell no. I want a tough approach to terrorism, but a humane treatment of the Palestinian people who have nothing to do with this shit - is that so much to ask for?"

TERRORISM IS NEVER A TOOL OF SELF DEFENSE! If Palestinians are concerned about the tactics and behavior of Israely troops are just the fact that their on the West Bank and Gaza then attack the troops in the West Bank and Gaza. Or if you do attack in Israel, attack a military target. One could actually make arguement of self defense in such a case. But under no circumstances could someone every consider the suicide bombing of teens in a disco listening to U2 to be "self defense". Blowing up Buses with school childern, killing innocent civilians at a dinner, or at the supermarket is not self defense. The targeted murder of innocent civilians is the definition of TERRORISM!

The Israely defense force targets terrorist, not innocent civilians. The Palestinians suicide bombers target innocent civilians and infact avoid military targets! Thats why they are terrorist. That is why it is the Israely people who are oppressed. Accidents suffered by Palestinians during Israely raids targeting terrorist are the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorist!

Until the Palestinians develop a policy of Non-violent action, they will never know peace and never have an independent state. The past 50 years, rejected every peace proposal offered to them and turning to violence to solve all their solutions has failed. Its about time the Palestinians adopted a course of action that actually has a chance of giving them what they desperately want, which they could of had 55 years ago if they accepted the peace deal then!

 

[anitram]

Never mind, forget it.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:

i expeced that when US military tries to prevent looting that there were not only plans for the oil ministerium but also for humanitarian things like hospitals and for cultural things like museums which harbour goods 50x older than the US history.

I know that the world is not just full of colors and beauty.
I know that with my way there wouldn't be a democracy now (well there is no democracy now in iraq either but there are chances now - the will of the mayority of Iraqis could be respected - let's see if we like this)

maybe we should start a own thread about which weapons have bin sold to which dictator since WWII (and yes, we should list all mayor countries who sell them not only US!) I guess Dreadsox made a good point, dragging Weapons and the UN Resolutions to every thread isn't verry helpful

Klaus

 

[Klaus]

Sting:
i'd like to add that in 1943 the US army trained special forces to protect monuments and artwork .

This time US just rushed into the war ( was there realy such a hury to start this war?) and Donald Rumsfeld mentioned that those were a side effect of the new liberty

Klaus

 

[verte76]

Wait a minute. Iranians are guilty of stirring up anarchy and such in Iraq? I don't think so. Some Shi'ite Moslems in Iraq want an Islamic state. I am currently reading books about Moslems and Arabs. These are just one group among many. I agree about the contradiction of the use of the word "outsiders" by the U.S. Who the hell do we think we are if we're not "outsiders", big time? Could it be that the Shi'ite Moslems of Iran just decided to help their co-religionists in Iraq? I don't think it's for us to decide what kind of government Iraq is going to have post-Saddam. If we truly liberated Iraq, they'll decide. There will be, hopefully, pro-American Kurds voting in Iraqi elections along with the Shi'ites, the Sunnis, etc, etc. The U.S. role should be to ensure peace and stability and if the Iraqis want U.N. people to help them with political elections and such they should get it. There are many of us who want democracy in Iraq who don't agree with everything that's being done to get there.

 

[hiphop]

So who?s next now?

Give me an update, has the attack on Syria or possibly North Korea already started? I don?t watch a lot of news those days.