Who do you fear?

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T

Tizer

War Child
Joined
Aug 25, 2000
Messages
555
If you're sitting at your desk in, say, Texas, Toronto, Melbourne..and you're getting concerned about the Iraqi situation, what and who are you fearful of?

We are being asked to recognise the danger that Saddam poses to the world, but realistically I don't think many of us actually think that he is capable of wiping out large swathes of the 'West'.

If it came down to a wider conflict and I mean a global conflict, who do you fear? Is there anybody to fear? China..Russia..are these the only countries capable of mass, and I mean mass destruction? Do economic ties mean this will never happen ? Who would fight a World War..
 
I fear that if USA will attack iraq , Sadam hussein has enough powers in his hands to strike or nuke America , + the result if USA attack on Iraq will be that All Muslim countries will hate them ( united States ) and probably will strike too .
 
the only thing to fear is nuclear bombs themselves

i fear that we will accept attacking other countries with no evidence and doubts from our closest allies as normal. i fear that when i go to bed i will wake up in a war not dissimilar to vietnam.


there is so much uncertanty here, that i think it's fair of me to say that i am not sure exactly what i fear.
 
I would likely say the Chinese. It's true that they have precious little air force and navy, but the shear size of their military could wipe out any opposing force.
 
Greenland

nobody knows what the hell they're doing over there. I've never even seen any envidence to indicate life exists there!! BUt there are thousands of people there...they never make the news...

it's quite...

almost....TOO QUITE...

my theory is that they have been building up a massive arsenal of weaponary and a huge army of clones

FEAR THE INVASION OF GREENLAND!
 
I dont know if I so much FEAR anyone, I just hope that nothing happens bc the way i see it is that if i fear them then they have gotten what they wanted all along!
 
Re: the only thing to fear is nuclear bombs themselves

Lilly said:
i fear that we will accept attacking other countries with no evidence and doubts from our closest allies as normal. i fear that when i go to bed i will wake up in a war not dissimilar to vietnam.


there is so much uncertanty here, that i think it's fair of me to say that i am not sure exactly what i fear.
Click to expand...


have no fear for atomic energy

cause none of them can stop the time
 
when America wants Australia's opinion...

they'll give it to us!!!
The four-letter "F' word
As a mother I live with it daily.

We're in this together. Whatever the outcome of the current political/economic/military situation, I think social justice and proper use and protection of the planet's natural resource is tantamount to our combined successful future. Small blue planet, spaceship earth.
I know you wanted specifics....I find John Howard and Peter Costello rather scary. I'm not sure what window they are looking out from, but our world views are quite different.On behalf of our nation, I apologise for David Kemp.

UNLESS
 
Countries to fear are those whose' behavior plus Weapons of Mass destruction make them threats to the rest of us. Countries like Iraq, then North Korea, Iran, and Syria are the dangerous countries today.

The Soviet Union is no more, and Russia military strength is a tiny fraction of the Soviet Unions. While Russia has failed to develop economically it is still trying, and it is still a semi-democracy after 10 years. Russia's severly weakened state, their adoption of western economic and political practices, and their desire for closer cooperation and trade with the west combine to make them no longer a threat like the Soviet Union was.

China's military continue's to be reduced. They now have less than 2.4 million in their total armed forces. China is surrounded by relatively strong military powers like, India, Russia, Pakistan, Vietnam, and North and South Korea. The Chinese military in technology is 30 years behind the west. China's most likely threat is to Tawain, and it is unlikely that China would ever attack, because Tawain actually could defeat a Chinese attack without foriegn assistance. China's navy is tiny, and the number of vessels that China has to sea-lift troops is tiny as well, at tops about 10,000. China could also airlift maybe another 5,000 troops to attack Tawain, but so what. Tawain has a standing army of over 150,000 and nearly 500,000 when reserves are called up. China's total deployable force to Tawain only numbers 15 to 20 thousand.

China's economic ties are also a reason they would not invade Tawain. They have strong economic ties with Tawain as well as the rest of the world. China does not want to forgo the hundreds of billions of dollars that international trade brings to their country every year. It is surrounded by militarily strong neighbors. So even if China has expansionist fantasy's, they are contained.

So the bad boys on the block are Iraq, North Korea, Syria and Iran. They may not be capable of a massive nuclear attack on the USA, but they still have capability to cause mass destruction both human and economic due to their resources, possible ties to terrorist, and their proximity to important Global resources like oil, and proximity to other places of economic value.
 
STING2 said:
So the bad boys on the block are Iraq, North Korea, Syria and Iran. They may not be capable of a massive nuclear attack on the USA, but they still have capability to cause mass destruction both human and economic due to their resources, possible ties to terrorist, and their proximity to important Global resources like oil, and proximity to other places of economic value.
Click to expand...

Leaving aside the discussion of whether the states you named have the capacity to attack other nations, what makes you label them as a threat? What has North Korea done to indicate it wishes to attack America for example? And are Iran and Syria classed as threats simply because of their location?

Also - do you think that if a state has the ability to harm the American economy through denying America access to resources such as oil, that gives America the right to take military action against that state?
 
Basstrap said:
Greenland

nobody knows what the hell they're doing over there. I've never even seen any envidence to indicate life exists there!! BUt there are thousands of people there...they never make the news...

it's quite...

almost....TOO QUITE...

my theory is that they have been building up a massive arsenal of weaponary and a huge army of clones

FEAR THE INVASION OF GREENLAND!
Click to expand...

better blow them up just in case...
 
Ppl with the power to start a war and with nuclear weapons scare me and ppl who are readily willing to kill innocent people
 
Fizzing,

Well, leaving aside their rather large capicities to attack other nations is leaving out a lot. These countries invest a high percentage of their GDP's on defense. Instead of building schools, roads, housing, hospitals and other things developing countries need, they invest in defense with the aim of achieving a strong offensive military capability. This is clearly demonstrated by the weapons that they buy. I can go into more detail, but I'll just state that you really can't seperate these points from the discussion.

In the case of North Korea or any country for that matter planning or thinking of the possibility of attacking another country, they don't advertise it to the world normaly. One is able to tell though through checking on military capicity and build up. No one knew that North Korea was about to attack South Korea for sure in 1950 or that China despite its warnings was actually going to militarily intervent in Korea in the winter of 1950/1951. But what is possible to see is the capability and disposition of that countries military forces. When a country like North Korea invest heavily in thousands of offensive conventional weapons, and makes obvious preperations for a deep strike into South Korea, by build a large system of roads, supply depots and other things near the border, it becomes very obvious and one has to be prepared and ready for a strike.

It is North Korea's investment in a large offensive military capacity vs. South Korea, attempting to make Weapons of Mass Destruction, a government which holds its people under the tightest grip of any police state in the world, and their often threatening statements toward the government of South Korea, that makes North Korea a threat. But it is a threat that we have successfully detered for nearly 50 years now because of a strong foreign policy of engagement and helping South Korea become one the more prosperous nations in the world as well as supporting their military. In addition, the stationing of large numbers of US soldiers in South Korea is also a strong deterent. Yet North Korea continue's to enslave its people in an attempt to get WMD weapons or a better military capability vs. the US and South Korea. South Korea is very important to the USA when it comes to trade as is most of the Asia pacific region. Any unstable situation or military attack is a threat to the USA and are allies there.

Iran and Syria are threats because of 1. their Behavior, 2. their military capacity 3. yes proximity to middle east oil which the entire world depends on.

After the Shah of Iran fell, Iran had a very conservative Islamic government with the often stated goal of uniting all of the middle east under its control. They of course fell far short of this being defeated by Iraq after a bloody 8 year war. Iran seems to be liberalizing now, but it was its Islamic fundamentalist government in the 1980s and its widespread support for terrorism, that still goes on today, in addition to military capacity and proximity to middle east oil that make it a threat. But as long as there is a strong US presence in the Persian Gulf, and Iraq still has the capacity to defend itself from Iran, then the only threat from Iran really is its support for terrorism. Israel just intercepted an Iranian boat armed with weapons and bombs for the terror group Humas. A group who's goal is not actually to target Israely soldiers in what they believe is occupied land, but to kill large numbers of Israely childern, teens in disco's perhaps listening to U2, and buses filled with people going to work. Iran may be behind other countries, but it is working intensively to develop its own arsonal of weapons of mass destruction with multiple means of delivery.

Syria of course supports Hezbolah with everything it needs to terrorize Israely civilians. Syria has many camps inside its borders which train terrorist from around the world. Syria has nearly 5,000 main battle tanks with a similar number of artillery, APC's, a large airforce, and no its not for decoration. An anti-Israely anti-western stance on many issue's. Again, it is not just their behavior or just their military capacity, or proximity to middle east oil, IT is all THREE combined that make them a threat!

If a state is denying the USA access to natural resources through taking over another country, siezing some asset that is not legally theirs, stealing foreign owned facilities etc. , the USA certainly has the right to respond militarily. But if the country decides to simply stop doing business with the USA, perhaps its largest buyer, then that is fine, but don't expect the USA to keep its market open on a whole range of goods. Fact is, not being able to sell to the largest market in the world is something that no country would ever do or really want to risk. The USA has far to much economic leverage, except in the case of rogue states.

A single country shut off of oil like Iraq or Saudi Arabia could be made up and handle, but a whole regional shut down would cause major problems. But the fact is that the Arabs can't eat the oil. The Arab countries depend on the rest of the world for a large amount of products that they purchase with the revenue they make from the sell of their oil.

But I don't think you were thinking in such extreme terms. You merely said, harm the American economy, not destroy it. As long as the country acts legally by simply stopping business with a major buyer, then I see nothing wrong and I don't see the US using military force in such a situation. Again, the interdependent nature of the relationship means that the Arab country will suffer from its own actions. You can't eat oil. Any Economic downtern in the USA effects the rest of the world including anyone else besides the USA that might be willing to buy this countries oil under normal circumstances. I could only see Arab countries doing this in the short run, because they would suffer from it as well if it continued. In the end, everyone wants market equilibrium.
 
Lets have a look of what the U.S. sold to South Korea from 1992 to 2002. I guess they?d like to put the weaponry in a big mil.base to let it collect some dust, that?s why they spent so much money for it. Data are collected from www.fas.org

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Country Date Description Transfer Type Price

South Korea 8/14/2002 <1,099 each, Pilot Production Kits Spares for the F-16 Block A/B/C/D aircraft structural enhancement kits Foreign Military Sales <$8,281,484

South Korea 8/1/2002 >64 (ea) SM-2 Block IIIA AUR, 4 (ea) SM-2 Block IIIA Missile Round Assembly kits, and 86 (ea) SM-2 Block IIIA/IIIB spare sections Foreign Military Sales $32,955,166

South Korea 7/22/2002 9 P-3B aircraft, 16 T56-A-4 and 20 T56-A-10W engines, Excess Defense Articles $66 million

South Korea 7/16/2002 127 (ea) MK 13 MOD 0 canisters with ancillary hardware and re-configurable coding plug assemblies Foreign Military Sales $4,554,434

South Korea 4/11/2002 Technical data, defense services and defense articles related to AN/ALQ-165 (Lot II) Aircraft Self-Protection Jammers (ASPJs) Direct Commercial Sales unknown

South Korea 4/11/2002 MK 45 MOD 9 target detecting devices and shroud fragmentation antenna assembly (TDD's/SFAA) Foreign Military Sales $36,796,578 (or more)

South Korea 3/19/2002 three Aegis warship combat systems, 3 AN/UPX-29(V) Aircraft Identification Monitoring System MK XII Identification Friend or foe systems, three shipboard gridlock sys tems, three Common Data Link Management System/Joint Tactical Distribution Systems, 3 ML 34 gun weapon ststems, Foreign Military Sales $1.2 billion

South Korea 2/13/2002 TOW 2A (Special) anti-armor missiles (assembled in Switzerland) Special unknown

South Korea 12/7/2001 111 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) Block I Foreign Military Sales $ 80.7 million

South Korea 11/13/2001 Technical data and defense services Direct Commercial Sales $50 million

South Korea 10/26/2001 45 AGM-84-H SLAM-ER Missile Systems, one ATM 84H Exercise Missile and associated support Foreign Military Sales $115 million

South Korea 10/7/2001 AN/ALQ-165 Lot II Aircraft self-protection jammers and test equipment Direct Commercial Sales $50 million

South Korea 10/3/2001 Transfer of technical data and assistance in the manufacture of Tactical Airborne Communication Equipment Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 8/2/2001 assistance and technical data for maintenance training for the AN/ALQ-165 Airborne Self Protection Jammer Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 8/2/2001 four FPS-117(E)1 Primary Radars Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 6/26/2001 36 AH-64D Apache attack helicopters (ROK is also considering the Bell AHSupercobra (#01-17)), 14 spare T-700-GE-701C engines, 85 M299 Hellfire launchers, 410 AGM-114L1 and 576 AGM-114K1 Hellfire II laser guided missiles, 40 AGM-114 smf 40 AGM-114 dummy missiles, 310 Stinger Block 1 missiles, two spare Modernized Targeting Acquisition and Designation Systems, 16 AN/APG-78 Longbow Fire Control Radar; 39 AN/ARC-210 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK; 23,904 2.75 rockest, M130 chaff dispensers, Integrated Helmet and Display Sight Systems, 30mm cartridges, electronic equipment, test facility spares, publications, training, spare parts Foreign Military Sales $2.4 billion

South Korea 6/26/2001 36 AH-1Z Super Cobra helipcopters, 14 spare T-700-GE-&)!C engines, 72 SIDEWINDER launchers, 85 M299 HELLFIRE launchers, 100 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER missiles, 576 AGM-114K1 HELLFIRE air-to-surface laser missiles, 40 AGM-114 training and 40AGM-114 dummy missiles, 39 AN?ARC 210 SINCGARRS radios with HAVE QUICK, 2.75in rockets, M130 chaff dispensers, 20mm cannons and rounds, rockets, spare and repair parts,equipment, tools, test sets, support, training, publications, etc. Foreign Military Sales $1.6 billion

South Korea 5/24/2001 design data, engineering information, instructions and support material for manufacture of ADVS 1790 series engines Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 5/24/2001 technical data and assistance for manufacture and assembly in the Republic of Korea of X200-5K transmissions and components Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 4/23/2001 CLSSA FMSO II for support of F-4D/E, RF-4C, F-5A/B/E/F, RF-5A, A/T-37, T-38, F-16C/D, and C-130H aircraft; AN/FPS-117 and AN/FRN-45 radar systems; and AIM-7, AIM-9 and AIM-120 missile components Foreign Military Sales $500M

South Korea 4/23/2001 Cooperative Logistics Supply Support Agreement for the support of F-4D/E, RF-4C, F-5A/B/E/F, RF-5A., A/T-37, T-38, F-16C/D and C-130H aircraft; AN/FPS-117 and AN/FRN-45 radar systems; and AIM-7, AIM-9 and AIM-120 missile components. Foreign Military Sales $500M

South Korea 4/23/2001 3 MK 41 Vertical Launch Systems, including training, support and test equipment, spare parts, publications and technical documentation, software development, and related elements of logistics support Foreign Military Sales $98M

South Korea 4/6/2001 manufacture of components and spare parts for the ALQ-88AK Electronic Countermeasure System Direct Commercial Sales >$50million

South Korea 4/4/2001 MLRS M26A2 rocket pods with extended range rockets and M77 submunitions Direct Commercial Sales
South Korea 4/4/2001 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) M26A2 rocket pods with extended range rockets and M77 submunitions Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 3/1/2001 munitions, subsystems and related equipment for F-15K fighter jets, 157 AMRAAN missiles, 105 Sidewinder missiles, 118 Joint Direct Attack Munitions guidance kits, 45 Joint Standoff Weapons, 18 Block II Harpoon missiles, 20 high-speed anti-Radiation missiles** Foreign Military Sales $1.5B

South Korea 7/28/2000 20 F-16 Block 52 Aircraft Foreign Military Sales $700 million

South Korea 7/19/2000 110 SM-2 Block IIIA Standard missiles, 110 Mk 13 Mod 0 canisters, containers, spare and repair parts, tech support, data, and training Foreign Military Sales $159 million

South Korea 6/9/2000 Technical data and assistance in the manufacture of Gunners Primary Tank Thermal Sight for end use by the ROK Government Direct Commercial Sales $50 M +

South Korea 5/12/2000 Manufacture of twenty F-16C/D aircraft. Direct Commercial Sales >$14 M

South Korea 2/22/2000 MK 31 Mod 1 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Guided Missile Weapons system for KDX-II destroyer program; Raytheon** Direct Commercial Sales

South Korea 11/4/1999 Defense articles and services to support the AN/ALQ-165 airborne jamming systems (Korean Offset Program). Direct Commercial Sales $52 million

South Korea 11/3/1999 14 PATRIOT Advance Capability 3 (PAC 3) fire units consisting of: 14 AN/MPQ-53 radar sets, 14 AN/MSQ-104 engagement control stations, 76 M091 launching stations, 31 OA-9054(V)41G antenna mast groups, 14 electric power plants with dual 150kw generators, 616 MIM-104D missiles, 333 SINCGARS, Cooperative Logistics Supply Support Agreement, and other associated equipment, training, and support; prime contractor, Raytheon. Foreign Military Sales $4.2 billion

South Korea 10/28/1999 67 more kits for the co-production of the Amphibious Assault Vehicle (AAV7A1). Direct Commercial Sales $99 million

South Korea 10/28/1999 29 Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS) with fire control panels, 281 MLRS extended range rocket pods, 120 reduced range practise rocket pods, one MLRS fire control proficiency trainer, 111 M39 Army Tactical Missile Systems (ATACMS) Block 1 guided missile and launching assemblies, related equipment, training, and support. Foreign Military Sales $498 million

South Korea 10/27/1999 100 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) for the F-16 aircraft. Direct Commercial Sales $29 million

South Korea 10/27/1999 20 F-16C/D aircraft component kits, spare parts, technical assistance, training, etc. Jet engines to power these aircraft will be acquired by direct commercial sales. Foreign Military Sales $379 million

South Korea 10/25/1999 15 Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) Equipment P4AM pods Lease $2 million

South Korea 10/21/1999 F-4 wing assembly and center wing section Excess Defense Articles $78,269.23 (orig. $782,691.60)
South Korea 10/21/1999 Aviation spare & repair parts Foreign Military Sales $452,403

South Korea 9/8/1999 64 MK 44 Guided Missile Round Pack (GMRP) with Tactical MK 116 BLOCK I Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM), canisters, related equipment, training and support; Raytheon. Foreign Military Sales $33 million

South Korea 8/4/1999 Manufacturing licence agreement for production of ALR-85 (V) I Radar Warning Receiver System for use on F-4 and F-5 aircraft. Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million
South Korea 7/30/1999 100 air-to-surface Popeye missiles** Unknown $800 million

South Korea 7/7/1999 10 AH-1F Helicopters Excess Defense Articles $9,658,250

South Korea 3/26/1999 Spare parts for the support of various aircraft, radar systems, and missile components Foreign Military Sales $350 million

South Korea 11/2/1998 2 AN/SPS-49 Air Search Radars Excess Defense Articles $381,525

South Korea 10/9/1998 Manufacture of transmissions for use on the Korean K95 Howitzer and the K1A1 Main Battle Tank Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

South Korea 6/4/1998 AGM-142C/D missiles Foreign Military Sales >$1 M

South Korea 5/13/1998 500 TOW 2A missiles, eight lot acceptance missiles, spare and reapir parts, support and technical equipment, technical support and documentation, and other support Foreign Military Sales $19 million

South Korea 4/22/1998 Licensed production Direct Commercial Sales ?

South Korea 3/25/1998 Four Hawker 800XP Aircraft Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

South Korea 3/25/1998 112 Lockheed Martin Multiple Launch Rocket System extended range (MLRS-ER) rocket pods,one verification testing MLRS-ER rocket pod,spare and repair parts, support Foreign Military Sales $40 million

South Korea 3/20/1998 AH-1 helicopter components, spare and repair parts Excess Defense Articles sale

South Korea 3/4/1998 12 fire-control units for "Standard" naval missiles;U.S. Govt and contractor support; spares Foreign Military Sales $214million

South Korea 2/26/1998 Automatic Data Processing Equipment Lease ?

South Korea 2/25/1998 Sentry-based air defense system Direct Commercial Sales >$50 mil.

South Korea 2/25/1998 Technical data and assistance for the development and deployment of a littoral water surveillance system Direct Commercial Sales >$50 mil.

South Korea 2/24/1998 Support intermediate level maintenance training for the AN/ALQ-165 Airborne Self Protection Jammer line replacement units and system replacement units Direct Commercial Sales >$50 mil.

South Korea 2/24/1998 Licensed production of 4 Landing Craft Air Cushion amphibious vessels Direct Commercial Sales ?

South Korea 11/21/1997 Tracked landing vehicle spare parts Excess Defense Articles $689,772

South Korea 11/13/1997 Spare parts under a cooperative logistics supply support arrangement for F-4D/E, RF-4C, F-5A/B/E/F, RF-5A, A/T-37, F-16C/D, and C-130H aircraft; AN/FPS-117 andAN/FRN-45 radar systems; and AIM-7 and AIM-9 missile components Foreign Military Sales $160 million

South Korea 11/10/1997 Three MK 41 Vertical Launch System, 144 MK 13 MOD 0canisters, equipment, support Foreign Military Sales $109 million

South Korea 10/21/1997 20 AN/ALQ-165 Airborne Self Protection Jammers Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

South Korea 10/20/1997 One Lockheed Martin MK 41 vertical launch system for installation on new frigate, weapon direction system, transmitter, canisters, support Foreign Military Sales $90 million

South Korea 10/10/1997 159 Hughes/Raytheon Aim-120B Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM), containers, spares,support Foreign Military Sales $90 million

South Korea 10/9/1997 Co-development of training aircraft for Korean forces Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

South Korea 9/24/1997 Kaiser-class fleet oiler Lease ?

South Korea 9/3/1997 200 Hughes "Stinger" RMP missiles less reprogrammable modules, 48 fly-to-buy "Stinger" missiles, 40 weapons rounds, 40 gripstock launchers, "friend or foe" night sights,support Foreign Military Sales $45 million

South Korea 9/3/1997 Four Boeing E-767 Airborne Warning and Control Systems(AWACS), parts, support Foreign Military Sales $3 billion

South Korea 6/19/1997 Upgrade of 190 Lockheed Martin Multiple Launch Rocket Systems previously sold to extended-range version Foreign Military Sales $29 million

South Korea 6/11/1997 1,065 Hughes "Stinger" RMP missiles less reprogrammable modules, 213 gripstock control group guided missile launchers, made by Hughes; interrogator friend or foe systems; spares Foreign Military Sales $307 million

South Korea 12/10/1996 271 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) rocket pods (6 rockets per pod); 29 MLRS launchers & fire control panels; 29 MLRS carriers (modified Bradley Fighting Vehicles); 111 Army Tactical Missiles & launch assemblies (ATACMS); 200 SINCGARS radios; 14 M577A2 command post carriers; 54 High Mobility Multi-Purpose Wheeled Vehicles; 4 M88 recovery vehicles; 300 night vision goggles Foreign Military Sales $624 M

South Korea 12/3/1996 116 AGM-130 and 116 AGM-142 air to ground missiles, repair, modification, and spare work for 30 F-4Es Foreign Military Sales $250 M

South Korea 9/12/1996 Support for F/RF-4, F/RF-5, A/T-37, C-130 and F-16 aircraft; AN/FPS-117 and AN/FRN-45 radar systems, AIM-7 and AIM-9 missile systems Foreign Military Sales $139 M

South Korea 9/5/1996 100 Raytheon/Hughes AIM-120 Advanced Medium Air-to- Air Missiles (AMRAAM) Foreign Military Sales $53 M
South Korea 5/14/1996 Manufacturing agreement for production of Laser Arm Firing Devices Direct Commercial Sales ?

South Korea 5/6/1996 Manufacturing agreement for production of ?significant military equipment? Direct Commercial Sales ?

South Korea 4/25/1996 Technical assistance agreement allowing Dayron Corp. to provide Hanwha Corporation of Korea with technical aid to load, assemble and pack the BLU-109/B 2,000 lb. penetrator bomb Direct Commercial Sales ?

South Korea 4/15/1996 Six Boeing CH-47D Chinook cargo helicopters Direct Commercial Sales _$50 M

South Korea 4/15/1996 Overhaul of leased T-38 aircraft and J85 engines Foreign Military Sales $90 M

South Korea 4/15/1996 45 Raytheon Sea Sparrow ship-to-air missiles Foreign Military Sales $19 M

South Korea 4/15/1996 46 ship- and sub-launched McDonnell Doug-las Harpoon anti-ship missile, spares and support Foreign Military Sales $90 M

South Korea 3/21/1996 30 T-38 aircraft and 75 J85 engines Lease free

South Korea 3/5/1996 2 salvage/rescue ships EDA/FMS $7 M
South Korea 11/20/1995 Licensed manufacture of night vision gear Direct Commercial Sales $20 M

South Korea 10/10/1995 Spares for F-4, F-5, A-37, C-130, F-16 aircraft, radars, and AIM-120, AIM-7, AIM-9, and AGM-65 missiles Foreign Military Sales $134 M

South Korea 7/21/1995 License for Samsung to manufacture United Defense AAV-7A1 Amphibious Assault Vehicles Direct Commercial Sales >$50 M

South Korea 7/5/1995 275 Chrysler M-48A5 tanks, 13 United Defense M-110 203mm howitzers, 41,070 tons of ammunition Special $66.63 M

South Korea 6/19/1995 16 Bell Helicopter Textron UH-1H helicopters Excess Defense Articles $3.7 M

South Korea 6/5/1995 United Defense AAV-7A1 amphibious assault vehicle parts Excess Defense Articles free

South Korea 3/24/1995 100 Raytheon/Hughes AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, support Foreign Military Sales $70 M

South Korea 3/16/1995 License to produce United Defense M-109 howitzers, support vehicles Direct Commercial Sales >$50 M

South Korea 2/24/1995 136 Texas Instruments HARM anti-radar missiles; spares Foreign Military Sales $64 M

South Korea 2/24/1995 32 McDonnell Douglas Harpoon anti-ship missiles; spares Foreign Military Sales $48 M

South Korea 10/7/1994 License for TRW to develop "spacecraft bus" with Korea Direct Commercial Sales >$50 M

South Korea 9/13/1994 Spares for McDonnell Douglas F-4, Northrop F-5, Cessna T-37, Lockheed C-130, F-16 aircraft; AN/FPS-117 radars, AN/FRN-45 navigation gear Foreign Military Sales $90 M

South Korea 9/13/1994 Two Raytheon Mk-48 vertical launch systems, spares, and support Foreign Military Sales $57 M

South Korea 9/13/1994 1,283 Hughes TOW-2A anti-tank missiles, launchers, spares, support Foreign Military Sales $25 M

South Korea 8/17/1994 122 General Electric T-700 engines for Sikorsky UH-60P helicopters Direct Commercial Sales >$14 M

South Korea 8/11/1994 Six Hughes AN/TPQ-37 counter-battery radars, ten AN/VRC-46 radios, spares and support Foreign Military Sales $106 M

South Korea 2/23/1994 Air Combat Maneuverability Instrumentation range equipment Lease free

South Korea 12/1/1993 9 A/TPQ-36(v)3 Firefinder counter-battery radars, support Direct Commercial Sales >$14 M
 
That is one hell of a shopping list! How is that with perspective? Is it a lot comparatively? All I c an see is a lot of letters and dollar figures, but what can all that do?

I mean if someone said to me "I have 16 T56-A-4 and 20 T56-A-10W engines" I would just say great, have fun...and not know what the hell they are for or what they could do. It could be standard military equipment for all I know.
 
:wave: pple......

as my mum says, those who believe and read the Bible.......u know......is it a sign of the 'end of the world?'

after all...........world-war would be part of it........AND look at all those floods in cities all over Europe.....was that not part of that chapter?

we could be.....'halfway there'.............*shrugs*

I dunno, but its errie to tink about and how its all startin to come about.

sorry if I am not making sense, just ignore me.........

to tell u the truth.....I am concerned.


I would not know who to fear.......but the hands that own the world - are the hands that leave last.


:reject:

just adding in here.................
 
Angela Harlem said:
That is one hell of a shopping list! How is that with perspective? Is it a lot comparatively? All I c an see is a lot of letters and dollar figures, but what can all that do?

I mean if someone said to me "I have 16 T56-A-4 and 20 T56-A-10W engines" I would just say great, have fun...and not know what the hell they are for or what they could do. It could be standard military equipment for all I know.
Click to expand...

Well, I am far from being a military expert, so I can?t tell you what all you can or can?t do with those weapons. Anyway, like you pointed out, it is a biiiig shopping list, and this stuff is quite expensive, isn?t it?

A few details I could find on the P3B Orion (an aeroplane for surveillance/ radar et al., I think) deal:

Reuters Company News
U.S. plans sale of Orion aircraft to South Korea

WASHINGTON, July 23 (Reuters) - The U.S. Defense Department on Tuesday said it had notified Congress that it plans to sell South Korea up to nine surplus Orion maritime patrol aircraft in a deal worth up to $66 million.

The proposed sale would assist foreign policy by helping improve the security of a friendly country in Northeast Asia, the Pentagon said.

The P3B aircraft would require refurbishment of engines and fitting of new sensors and cockpit instruments. Training, spares and other services would be part of the contract.

Principal contractors mentioned by the Pentagon were Rolls-Royce Plc's (London:RR.L - News) Rolls Royce Engine Services of Oakland, California and Knight Aerospace Products Inc., of San Antonio, Texas.

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The Aegis combat thingie, according to the U.S. Navy, is:

Aegis Combat System
Description: The Aegis system was designed as a total weapon system, from detection to kill. The heart of the system is an advanced, automatic detect and track, multi-function phased-array radar, the AN/SPY-1. This high powered (four megawatt) radar is able to perform search, track and missile guidance functions simultaneously with a track capacity of over 100 targets. The first Engineering Development Model (EDM-1) was installed in the test ship, USS Norton Sound (AVM 1) in 1973.

The computer-based command and decision element is the core of the Aegis combat system. This interface makes the Aegis combat system capable of simultaneous operation against a multi-mission threat: anti-air, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare.

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Apache helicopters and Stinger missiles should be well known:

AH-64A/D APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTER, USA
The Apache is a twin-engined army attack helicopter developed by McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing). It entered service with the US Army in 1984 and has been exported to Egypt, Greece, Israel, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom. The US Army has more than 800 Apaches in service and more than 1000 have been exported. The Apache was first used in combat in 1989 in the US military action in Panama. It was used in the Gulf War and has supported low intensity and peacekeeping operations world wide including Turkey, Bosnia and Kosovo.

The AH-64D Longbow is fitted with the Longbow millimetre wave fire control radar and the Longbow Hellfire missile. Boeing has a contract to produce 232 AH-64Ds, with deliveries till 2002 and to upgrade 269 US Army AH-64A Apaches to AH-64D standard by 2006. Over 200 have been delivered. The Longbow has also been ordered by the Netherlands (30), Singapore (20), Israel (8) and Egypt.

In August 2001, the AH-64D was selected by the Japanese Ground Self-Defence Force, with a requirement for 60 helicopters, and Kuwait has plans to purchase 16 AH-64D helicopters.

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What follows is a copy of a letter from Rodney Stich to several members of Congress, informing them of a grave danger to public safety and a threat to national security in which the CIA and Justice Department have been willing accomplices.
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October 20, 1995
Dear (Recipient):

My sources in the intelligence community have recently given me details of efforts by Afghani rebels to turn over to the United States, without charge, 30 to 40 Stinger missiles (SAM), with the possibility of an additional 100 missiles thereafter. Incredibly, this offer was rejected by Justice Department and Central Intelligence Agency officials. There is a strong possibility that one or more of these rejected missiles will be used to shoot down commercial airliners. If this occurs, not only will the carnage be horrendous, but it will inflict severe financial havoc upon the aviation industry and upon air travel. The following is a brief description of what has transpired:


Synopsis of CIA and Justice Department Tactics Insuring that the SAM Missiles Will be Available to Terrorists
Recent information provided to me by one or more of my many contacts in the CIA community describes the dates, places, and people involved in offering the missiles to the United States, and the rejection of this offer. These sources provided me with precise details of the negotiations to give the missiles to the United States, the agreement by Afghan rebel leader, General Rashid Dostom, and a CIA attorney.

CIA headquarters was initially made aware of the offer through a letter sent by a former CIA agent whom I have known for about five years, and who I consider very honorable and reliable. That letter went unanswered. The agent, concerned about the consequences of commercial airliners being shot down with these missiles, then contacted another CIA employee at CIA headquarters, who then tried to force a response from high CIA officials. This latest action forced CIA officials to finally respond.

Negotiations then commenced, which involved, among others, the former CIA agent who headed a major CIA proprietary in Hawaii; a CIA attorney in the Los Angeles area; an Afghani located in California; and an Afghani rebel general in Afghanistan (who had previously turned over 20 Stinger missiles to the United States).

The general agreed to turn over the missiles without cost to the United States, and simply requested the release of an Afghani being held in federal prison on a drug charge arising from a possible KGB setup. At the same time that the Afghan general was offering to give these missiles to the United States, these same missiles were being sought by terrorist groups who bid large amounts of money for them. one obvious possible use for these missiles in terrorist hands would be to shoot down commercial airlines.

Incredibly, CIA and Justice Department officials rejected the offer, insuring that the missiles would fall into the hands of terrorists, where some of them may be at this very moment.

The Afghani initially offered to give to the CIA 30 to 40 Stinger [missiles] (following an earlier return of 20 Stinger missiles), with a possibility that 100 more would be delivered thereafter. The CIA and Justice Department requested serial numbers for several of the missiles to determine that the missiles were actually available. These serial numbers were then provided, and the numbers were confirmed by U.S. authorities as authentic.

After telephone contact was made with this Afghan general (General Dostom), a written agreement was signed by a Los Angeles area CIA attorney, the Afghani in California, and the former CIA agent who the Afghans were using to insure that the CIA and Justice Department kept their word.


Knowledge of corrupt CIA and Justice Department activities
My prior experience as a federal and then a private investigator, and a confidant to many former CIA and other deep-cover people seeking to expose government corruption, has enabled me to recognize the corrupt conduct of these two government agencies. I strongly feel that this rejection indicates a secret agenda that could inflict additional great harm upon America. This conduct would be compatible with the corrupt activities and harm that I have detailed and documented during the past 30 years of attempts to expose the activities of corrupt government officials and employees.


POSSIBLE REASONS FOR REFUSING THE MISSILES
There are several possible reasons for the CIA and Justice Department refusing to accept the missiles, and each of them is in character for these two groups. Two of these reasons are listed here:

Attempt to prevent exposure of an earlier CIA and Justice Department scandal. The offer to provide the missiles at no charge went through a former CIA agent who was made the titular head of a large and covert CIA proprietary in Hawaii: Bishop, Baldwin, Rewald, Dillingham and Wong (BBRD&W). This covert operation that was based within the United States (Honolulu) had offices in 17 countries, and replaced another CIA operation and scandal known as Nugan Hand Bank with headquarters in Australia. After a Honolulu television station blew the cover on BBRD&W, officials in control of the CIA and Justice Department sought to cover for the CIA operation by fraudulently charging with criminal conduct the head of that CIA proprietary.
If the missiles had been accepted, it is possible that this sacrificed agent would be identified and the massive fraud involving the Hawaiian and Nugan Hand operations would then surface. (Exposure of this type of misconduct would reveal that the Justice Department's conduct at Ruby Ridge and Waco are only the tip of the iceberg.)


CIA need for continuing crises. Another possibility for CIA and Justice Department rejection of the Stinger missiles is that the CIA wants the missiles to fall into terrorists' hands, and actually wants an airliner to be shot down. The shoot-down of a commercial airliner could then be used to justify the continuation of CIA activities. This scenario is not as bizarre as it sounds when a person understands the history of corrupt CIA and Justice Department activities and the great harm inflicted upon the United States through criminal activities. I describe these activities in books that I have written, Defrauding America and to a lesser extent Unfriendly Skies.
A Prior Air Tragedy Involved With CIA-DEA-Justice Department Misconduct
Pan Am 103. Despite the cover-up by the CIA and Justice Department (and by Congress and much of the mainstream media), substantial evidence indicates that the Pan Am 103 tragedy was made possible by CIA-DEA misconduct associated with a pattern of illicit drug smuggling into the United States. My deep-cover contacts, along with information obtained from other sources, indicates that the CIA and DEA had an established drug pipeline from Nicosia and Beirut into the United States using Pan Am aircraft. Pan Am's involvement started at Frankfort, Germany. Ironically, one of the same DEA agents involved in that drug pipeline, Michael T. Hurley, was used to retaliate against a witness who testified to Congress concerning the Justice Department's involvement in the Inslaw scandal. Justice Department officials retaliated against Michael Riconosciuto for testifying before Congress about the Justice Department's involvement in the Inslaw scandal. This is a routine criminal misuse of Justice Department offices and power. Officials prosecuted Lester Coleman, a former intelligence agency asset who blew the whistle on the CIA-DEA involvement in the Pan Am tragedy. Justice Department officials prosecuted Juval Aviv in retaliation for uncovering evidence showing CIA-DEA involvement in that tragedy. (I have a long list of others who were fraudulently prosecuted to silence them, including the long persecution of me in retaliation for exposing these crimes against America.)


Pattern of Congressional and Media Cover-up
None of the corrupt government activities that I identify could continue without the criminal cover-up by members of Congress and by most of the U.S. mainstream media. I repeatedly offered to provide evidence to you and other members of Congress (and the media) of hard-core criminal activities involving federal officials, and the only response was silence (i.e., misprision of felonies, cover-up, obstruction of justice). This same misprision of felonies has put many citizens in prison (Title 18 USC ? 4), even though they were less guilty than government officials, members of Congress, and the media, who have a greater responsibility to report these crimes.

On the surface, although very serious, this missile matter does not appear to have the subversive and criminal nature of other criminal conduct that I exposed. However, it demands a full, open, congressional investigation.

Fortunately for everyone involved in these criminal activities, the mainstream media has kept the lid on the scandals, and most Americans are too preoccupied with trivia, and totally unwilling to meet their responsibilities under our form of government.


Vested Interest In Continuing the Cover-up
Based upon 30 years of experience in attempting to expose hard-core government corruption, starting while I was a federal investigator, it would be my expectation that you will cover up this matter. For many years, and especially during the past five years, I have made you aware of criminal activities involving government employees and officials, including corrupt officials within the Central Intelligence Agency, the Justice Department, and crooked judges. Each of you therefore have a vested interest in preventing the American people from learning about these criminal activities and what has been done to the American people.

But there is the possibility that despite the media cover-up, and the public's incredible illiteracy about government misconduct, that a small percentage of the American people will learn about it and demand justice. If one or more commercial aircraft are blown out of the sky, your prior knowledge will be publicized. So you have a dilemma as to what to do with this information. You certainly can't meet your responsibilities by turning this information over to the same Justice Department that is corruptly involved with the various criminal activities that l brought to your attention.


Sincerely,

Rodney Stich

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I think this post is long enough.
:censored:
 
I fear the Amish.

(If you are Amish, I am sorry, I just get a little creeped out, but then again, if you were Amish I do not think you are allowed to use computers, in that case, whoever you are, I am not afraid of you...)
 
I agree with Basstrap. I think thats the same reason Saskatchewan scares the hell outta me. You never hear from them. Scary.
Lol@ the Marilyn Manson comment. His bio was great.
 
Your fear is misplaced. HipHOP, what exactly is your point with the post on military sales to South Korea. Its great that the South Korean army is well equiped with US weaponry in order to counter a potential invasion of South Korea by the North. What exactly was the point you were trying to make?
 
My point was that South Korea seems to be well enough equipped to handle its business in this region.

And the second one, that it is interesting to see how much exactly the U.S. manufacturers have profited from the tension between North and South Korea.
 
Well you simply list several weapons systems purchase without putting that into any CONTEXT! If you want a rundown of the military balance on the Korean Penisula I can give you that! I can also give you a similar run down of Chinese military forces in close proximity to the region. Only when you see these weapons purchase's in light of the threat that they face can you begin to understand why Korea has such need for weapons and why it is important that US troops remained stationed in South Korea. My Father over the course of a 30 year military career served to full year asignments in South Korea! My best friend, A Cobra Helicopter Pilot in the US Marine Corp was in South Korea this last spring.

These corporations that make this US equipment are vital to the lives of are men and women in the armed forces. This technology helps them to win wars quickly and with minimum loss of life! I have several friends who are engineers and who work for several different Corporations that build weapons for the United States and our allies. Their work and what they produce are a vital part of international security!

Again, I'd be happy to post the military balance, listing the equipment holdings and dispostion of military units on the Korean Penisula and similar data on China if you want to understand the context under which we supply these weapons to South Korea!
 
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