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Old 09-05-2003, 09:21 AM   #1
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Where Is The Outrage??

In support of her fellow Democrat, California Senator Diane Feinstein is appearing in a frequently run television commercial urging a No vote on the upcomming recall.

Prominately displayed behind Feinstein in the ad is a Vishnu statue (the second member of the Hindu trinity).

So, California's most prominent political figure is appearing along side a Hindu statue. Considering the uproar over a Ten Commandments monument, the silence in California is deafening.



What they say "We support separation of Church and State."


What they mean "We support separation of Christ and State."
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Old 09-05-2003, 10:10 AM   #2
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This was in a government building?
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Old 09-05-2003, 10:19 AM   #3
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In the case of the Ten Commandments controversy it was Moore's behavior rather than the monument per se that bothered me. My criticism of Moore was that he didn't have any dignity and was way too confrontationist when he presented his argument. If he had I think things would have gone differently. Aesthetically, the monument left something to be desired but that's just a matter of taste.
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Old 09-05-2003, 10:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
This was in a government building?
The commercial does not make that clear.

Does that make a difference? It suggests that a government official can endorse a religion as long as the endorsing is not done in a government building.
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Old 09-05-2003, 10:49 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The commercial does not make that clear.

Does that make a difference? It suggests that a government official can endorse a religion as long as the endorsing is not done in a government building.
The dispute over the Ten Commandments monument was based on it being in a government building, and not really over a government official endorsing a religion. Heck, people could have gone after our governor for having Christian Coalition people in the governor's mansion for prayer breakfasts. No one did and few people even cared. The difference? PR. Moore made alot of enemies. The governor hasn't made enemies because of his religion. They were really after Moore, not the monument.
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Old 09-05-2003, 10:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76


The dispute over the Ten Commandments monument was based on it being in a government building, and not really over a government official endorsing a religion.
No way. Moore may have made his enemies, but the basis for the lawsuit requiring removal of the monument is that it represents an endorsement of a religion. After all, that is what the Constitution says.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The commercial does not make that clear.

Does that make a difference? It suggests that a government official can endorse a religion as long as the endorsing is not done in a government building.
Absolutely it does. Individuals in the government can be any religion they want to. In fact I believe all US Presidents have been claimed Christians with the majority of them protestant.

But they aren't allowed to hang a cross over their podium! The difference is that a government can not endorse a religion and when you place a religious monument in a government building then in effect you're stating that this state court or whatever endorses this religion.

Moore could have placed the monument in his front yard. He could have ran commercials with him next to the monument. I don't care. But you can't bring it into the courthouse. It's as simple as that.

This is not a case of "separation of Christ and state." And remember once again 10 commandments are not solely Christian law, so this was never about just Christianity.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:05 AM   #8
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that 98% of the population has no clue what that even is.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But they aren't allowed to hang a cross over their podium!
Feinstein had her "cross" on her podium.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:25 AM   #10
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Is this woman even Hindu?

It's possible that it was in her house, she bought the statue on a trip to India for its artistic/cultural merit rather than a pronouncement of her faith.

My mother, a devout Catholic, has purchased Hindu religious icons and one is hanging in my own bedroom. We also have a couple of Buddhist sculptures from Korea and African religious tribal masks on our walls.

If it's not in a government building, she can have whatever she wants standing behind her. I don't care if a politicial wears a crucifix around their neck, but when you put it in a courthouse, then I object.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:25 AM   #11
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I have not seen the commercial. Did it look like she in her home or office? Or was she standing in front of a Hindu shrine? Was it a life-size statue, or was it just on a bookshelf behind her?
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:36 AM   #12
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It appears in an office setting. The statue was on a bookcase, directly over her right shoulder. It can be seen clearly - and we have a small 13" television.

I find the false distinctions amusing. I really don't care what Feinstein has in her office. But, as my premise was in the Alabama case, the "separation of church and state" crowd is only heard regarding Judeo-Christian matters.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It appears in an office setting. The statue was on a bookcase, directly over her right shoulder. It can be seen clearly - and we have a small 13" television.

I find the false distinctions amusing. I really don't care what Feinstein has in her office. But, as my premise was in the Alabama case, the "separation of church and state" crowd is only heard regarding Judeo-Christian matters.
When she tries to place this statue in a government building there will be an uproar. I'm not sure why you're not getting the distinction. This is not someone trying oppress your beliefs.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


When she tries to place this statue in a government building there will be an uproar. I'm not sure why you're not getting the distinction. This is not someone trying oppress your beliefs.
But you had no trouble equating the Ten Commandments monument with oppression??

She very well may have this statute in her publically funded office and I doubt anyone would make a peep. I bet there are plenty of Vishnu statues that are treated as works of art and therefor ignored.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:45 AM   #15
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I'm a bit confused. This could have been a gift or simply a part of her office decor. She's not acting in a governmental capacity in this commercial and is not in a govermental facility. How is this in any way endorsing a religion?
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:46 AM   #16
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And I I'm sure it wouldn't have been a problem if Judge Moore merely had a copy of the Ten Commandments in his office. The real distinction here is that he placed a large one on federal property, which literally violates the protections for separation of church and state. But I agree with you, I could care less what Feinstein has in her office. Call me when she tries to place a several-ton statue of Vishnu in a courthouse.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:49 AM   #17
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Now it is size and location. This cracks me up. I guess we never should talk about principles.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:52 AM   #18
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It was always about location! If the Ten Commandments monument hadn't been where it was it wouldn't have been an issue at all.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:56 AM   #19
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nbcrusader, I'm not really sure what the point is you're trying to make.

Moore was on a religious crusade, he kept giving out soundbites about the glory of his God and how the Constitution was based on that very principle, which it was not.

I thought she was Jewish and when I checked, she is. Therefore, I very much doubt that a Jew, to whom having one and only one God is supreme to all sees Vishnu as representative of a religious icon, nor is she arguing that Vishnu should be placed in a court house because the American constitution is based on the Hindu teaching of dharma. Come on.

It's an exotic piece of art to her and I'm pretty sure that if you asked her to tell you the principles of Hinduism, let's say we start with what samsara is and the B. Gita, she'd either have no clue or a very vague idea. She's not pushing anything here, whereas Moore was. Therein lies the distinction.
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Old 09-05-2003, 12:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


But you had no trouble equating the Ten Commandments monument with oppression??

She very well may have this statute in her publically funded office and I doubt anyone would make a peep. I bet there are plenty of Vishnu statues that are treated as works of art and therefor ignored.
Don't put words in my mouth I have never and will never equate the 10 Commandments with oppression.

You can have anything you want in your office. You can have a bible, koran, statue of buddah...hell you can have them all, in your office (publically funded or not), your home, your car. I don't care. But when you have a public government space that is set up to represent the people of the US then don't exclude any individual by putting up a monument that isn't included in their religious beliefs.

And I can almost guarantee you that you have art, objects, etc. in your very own house that are representative of another religion and not even know it.
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