Where is our apology?

[Dreadsox]

[Q]"The behavior by Americans at the prison in Iraq is, as we all acknowledge, immoral, intolerable and un-American ... I cannot help but say, however, that those responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11, 2001, never apologized. Those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized. And those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Fallujah a while ago never (apologized)....[/Q]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/191245p-165305c.html

 

[anitram]

You will never get it. (Will the Vietnamese?)

But I don't understand this mentality - is it tit for tat? Whatever happened to doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do? Instead we gripe about doing the right thing because others are doing the wrong thing. Well, you know what, you can only live for yourself, make decisions for yourself. Maybe it's time we spent a little less time worrying about other people's morality and in turn took a look at our own. God forbid I ever compared my actions to that of scum like bin Laden. That would be the day.

 

[pax]

I agree with anitram. We went into Iraq promising to liberate, promising freedom and a better life. Implicit in such promises is that WE were the only people who could deliver these things to the Iraqis. In this incident of abuse at the very least, we failed to keep our promise.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the United States simply cannot set itself up as the world's moral arbiter if we are unwilling to play by the same rules we say everyone else should follow. We are not above the law. We must, in fact, if we want to have any kind of moral stature in the world, strive to make our actions beyond all reasonable reproach. The difference between us and the Iraqis is that they never promised us anything. That doesn't make it right, and sure, they ought to apologize, too. But they won't, and we will, and we should. Because it's the right thing to do. And somewhere, somehow, if we are to continue to believe that we are the moral superiors in this situation, we will find the strength of character to do it again if we have to.

 

[verte76]

I agree with pax and anitram. If you tell people you are going to liberate them from a terrible dictator, OK. You've got to do the right thing. There has been a screw-up of frightening proportions, and it's ripped the moral purpose of the whole mission into shreds. It has been a long time since I've been this upset about my government's actions.

 

[STING2]

Its very unfortunate when people gloss over all the hard work our troops and civil affairs personal have done in Iraq and simply focus on the behavior of a few bad people and extrapolate that into this was conduct approved by the US government and the US and all involved with the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq are now guilty.

People are forgetting the reality of what happens in most instances with US troops and Civil affairs personal in regards to re-building Iraq. This never got the press coverage it deserved before and now you will not even here of it because of a media obsessed with scandel rather than balance and objective truth.

Lots of good things will happen in Iraq this week, but you are not going to hear about them. You will not hear about the sick who will be cared for, or the family's house that will be fixed, or the school that will be built, or the water pipes that will be fixed, or the medicine given to a sick child, or any other of the countless good humanitarian works that are troops do on a daily basis in Iraq that constantly get ignored by the media and others.

That is perhaps the real scandel in all of this.

 

[verte76]

Sting, I posted in another thread that I feel really bad for all of the honest, decent people in the armed forces in Iraq who had nothing to do with this mess. There are military people over there who are doing their jobs, helping with schools, health care, water, a whole bunch of great stuff. Still, the news of the torture is demoralizing. I am outraged that thanks to these idiots our soldiers over there are in even greater danger. Torture is torture and there's no escaping the fact that it happened. Now we all have to live with this.

 

[anitram]

Well, STING, perhaps those SOLDIERS and their SUPERIORS should have thought about that before committing these atrocities.

Because they are the reason the media has anything to talk about at all. It is not the media's fault that people were tortured, no matter how you spin it. And it is not the media's fault that these photos exist. And it is not the media's fault that the world is enraged and many of your own citizens are appalled and disappointed. All those things are the fault of the people responsible and they are the ones who have put the decent men and women of the military into this precarious position.

 

[melon]

This gets all very infantile after a while.

The difference? We expect bad behavior from Al Qaeda, but the U.S. puts itself on a moral pedestal. Inevitably, every individual, every government, every organization that puts itself on a "moral pedestal" crashes down.

"The pride of your heart has deceived you: you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, whose abode is in the heights, Who say in your heart, "Who will bring me down to earth?" Though you go as high as the eagle, and your nest be set among the stars, From there will I bring you down, says the LORD." -- Obadiah 1:4-5

Melon

 

[STING2]

Well, STING, perhaps those SOLDIERS and their SUPERIORS should have thought about that before committing these atrocities.

Because they are the reason the media has anything to talk about at all. It is not the media's fault that people were tortured, no matter how you spin it. And it is not the media's fault that these photos exist. And it is not the media's fault that the world is enraged and many of your own citizens are appalled and disappointed. All those things are the fault of the people responsible and they are the ones who have put the decent men and women of the military into this precarious position.

Can you name me a single country, group, business, church, military, that has NEVER had cases of abuse like this at any time ever?

How many Coalition troops and civilians are currently working in Iraq? Well over 200,000.

How many troops or civilians were involved in the abuse? This has not been determined yet, but at most it appears to be a few dozen.

The work of 200,000 people vs. what a few dozen people did.

So what does the media report? Do they report on what the vast majority of people are doing in Iraq and what is the real the situation throughout the country or do they narrowly focus on certain area and a few people?

We have our answer. The media spends all their time reporting on the actions of a few dozen instead of the actions of 200,000 people.

I suppose this is not surprising because even before the scandel, the media was not reporting all the great work that are troops were doing. The only way to find out about that is from the troops themselves. The media is concerned about ratings and money in this case and nothing sells better than a scandel.

So once again, the truth of what 200,000 people are doing to help Iraq sinks even further into the background as the media and others decide to focus on a few dozen people and their actions.

Why can't the media offer some balance to its reporting. Why isn't balance and objective reporting the chief priority rather than ratings and money?

The media have had the opportunity to report on thousands of good things in Iraq, but they choose not to. Its unfortunate but true that most people's impressions of Iraq have been formed by reporting from the Sunni Triangle over the past year which is a very small part of Iraq.

It is is the media's fault when they ignore the overwhelming amount of good things the coalition is doing in Iraq to spend most of if not all of their time reporting on the actions of a few dozen people.

 

[BVS]

Oh yes the evil media...

The media was used to get the public to think this war was warranted and the media was used to show us the evil...there's your balance.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

It is is the media's fault when they ignore the overwhelming amount of good things the coalition is doing in Iraq to spend most of if not all of their time reporting on the actions of a few dozen people.

Oh please. US and UK soldiers have been torturing people in Iraq. There are numerous reports of Iraqis being raped and murdered by those soldiers. The political repercussions within the UK and US are huge, people have been calling for the resignation of senior politicians including Rumsfeld.

You honestly think the media shouldn't be reporting this front, middle and centre?

 

[STING2]

Oh yes the evil media...

The media was used to get the public to think this war was warranted and the media was used to show us the evil...there's your balance.

Objectively take a look at what Saddam's regime had done and his violations and capabilities. The coalition had been confronting Saddam one way or another for the past 12 years since the first Gulf War but the MEDIA was severely under reporting it, if reporting at all. The MEDIA was not reporting about the failing sanctions and Saddam's failure to comply with UN resolutions and intereference with the UN inspection process got little attention, except if it led to major military action.

One of the most frustrating things to hear about over the past year and half is people who have no knowledge of the constant state of conflict that has existed between the Coalition and Saddam since the first Gulf War in 1991. The media is partly responsible for this. This is why you hear such bullshit comments as "Bush's war" "Bush is finishing daddy's business" "Bush is starting a conflict in the Persian Gulf" and "Bush is trying to steal the oil". We'd here less of this horse shit if the media was more concerned about balance and objectivity rather than ratings and money and had spent more time reporting about the conflict in the 1990s. The conflict with Saddam and the need to verifiably disarm Saddam with the use of military force if necessary has been going on long before Bush entered office in 2001.

 

[STING2]

Oh please. US and UK soldiers have been torturing people in Iraq. There are numerous reports of Iraqis being raped and murdered by those soldiers. The political repercussions within the UK and US are huge, people have been calling for the resignation of senior politicians including Rumsfeld.

You honestly think the media shouldn't be reporting this front, middle and centre?

I never said the media should not report it, I said the media should not report it at the expense of what the vast majority of troops and civilians are doing in Iraq. It presents a false image of what is really going on.

The actions of a few dozen people versus the actions of 200,000 people.

For example, do you think the media should focus on the violence of 10 protestors at an anti-war rally or focus on the peaceful actions of the vast majority at an anti-war rally? How would you like it if the media spent hours talking about those 10 protestors and did not mention any thing else about the rally?

 

[BVS]

For example, do you think the media should focus on the violence of 10 protestors at an anti-war rally or focus on the peaceful actions of the vast majority at an anti-war rally? How would you like it if the media spent hours talking about those 10 protestors and did not mention any thing else about the rally?

That's what the media does. Have you seen media coverage of rally, of course they're going to focus on the 10 that's what the general public salivate over.

Why are you looking to the media for education? It is not the responsibility of the media to educate us on foreign policies. Educate yourself. Quit blaming the media.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:
Remember what we thought about iraqis when we saw reports on TV that Jessica Lynch was eventually raped.
We thought "what barbars can do this to POWs", why should we think different about western soldiers who torture or rape Prisionors?

Of course it was not done by all Soldiers (thank god!) but many people believed the US boys could never do something like that. Now, where they have to face the facts, some of them start to think that maybe not everything they hear at home about the brave and honest US soldiers on one side and the hussein loyalists and al-quaida members on the other side is true too.

 

[beli]

Im pleased this thread has gone the way it has. I initally read it when it was just Dread and it sent a shiver up my spine.

Dread seems to be in the minority, which in my opinion, is a good thing.

I thought this thread was going to be about why Rumsfeld (sp?) hasnt quit and appears to only be apologising for the fact that the issue has made its way into the media rather than the issue itself.

Thats how the US is being portrayed in the media in Australia anyway.

 

[verte76]

We supposedly went in there to stop torture, not to inflict it. The very least the media could do is to show us what these people are doing. The very fact that this was done by Americans.........I could scream. Like I said I feel terrible for the many decent soldiers who didn't do anything wrong, and have, in fact done much that's right. This is an unbelievably fd up state of affairs.

 

[Dreadsox]

Im pleased this thread has gone the way it has. I initally read it when it was just Dread and it sent a shiver up my spine.

Dread seems to be in the minority, which in my opinion, is a good thing.

I thought this thread was going to be about why Rumsfeld (sp?) hasnt quit and appears to only be apologising for the fact that the issue has made its way into the media rather than the issue itself.

Thats how the US is being portrayed in the media in Australia anyway.

Please help me out here.....

Where did I say I agreed with Lieberman on this issue? I started a thread iwth his quote...and I never said I agreed with it.

If you are going to accuse me of having an opinion on an issue, please quote me to back it up.

Thanks....I made my comments about the issue in the other thread. I felt Lieberman's comments deserved its own thread.

 

[beli]

My apologies.

Just curious - Why did you want to start a thread with something internationally offensive without stating your opinion?

PS I have no idea who Lieberman is. He doesnt crack a mention here.

PPS If the other thread you mention is the one with pictures in it, I didnt get very far before I left. I cant bare to look at images like that.

 

[Dreadsox]

The Lieberman Quote is another attempt to lump the 9/11 issues that we have with Extremists with Iraq.

I freaking teach daily, two wrongs do not make a right to 8 and 9 year olds. Mr. Lieberman must have missed that lesson.

The US should apologize because we are supposed to be better and behave better because we have taken a position of leadership.

I am so sick to my stomach over this, and it matters not to me how many soldiers participated in this. It is irrelevant.

Clouding the issue by listing all of the good we have done is not the correct response.

Having read the report, I believe the words SYSTEMIC were used by the investigating general. That does not mean a few soldiers.

 

[Dreadsox]

My apologies.

Just curious - Why did you want to start a thread with something internationally offensive without stating your opinion?

PS I have no idea who Lieberman is. He doesnt crack a mention here.

PPS If the other thread you mention is the one with pictures in it, I didnt get very far before I left. I cant bare to look at images like that.

Well, I would have posted the entire article, but we have rules to follow about quoting entire articles. That is why I posted a link to the article.

I did not thing I had to state my opinion. Do all discussions have to begin with an opinion?

 

[beli]

I did not thing I had to state my opinion. Do all discussions have to begin with an opinion?

No, I guess not. I dont want to get into a war of words over this.

I dont understand your motives, and you probably dont understand me either, so we shall just leave it at that.

peace.

 

[Dreadsox]

peace...although I am puzzled that this is a war of words....but fine....lets let it go.

 

[Dreadsox]

Sting, I do agree there is NOT enough coverage of the positive things.....yet...I do not know how you can tell someone in Iraq that we are good people when we, the occupiers begin to behave so badly. And I agree with you that we have done more good than is recognized, but one thing I know is that people remember the first and last impressions. I would add that people remember the best and the worst about others people.

While people can remember the good, this stain will also be upon us.

 

[STING2]

That's what the media does. Have you seen media coverage of rally, of course they're going to focus on the 10 that's what the general public salivate over.

Why are you looking to the media for education? It is not the responsibility of the media to educate us on foreign policies. Educate yourself. Quit blaming the media.

Did I ever say I was looking to the media for education? Did I say it was the responsibility of the media to educate us on foreign policies?

I said it was the responsibility of the media to report balanced and objective news.

As long as the media continue to not be balanced and objective in what they present, I'm going to point that very fact out.

 

[STING2]

STING2:
Remember what we thought about iraqis when we saw reports on TV that Jessica Lynch was eventually raped.
We thought "what barbars can do this to POWs", why should we think different about western soldiers who torture or rape Prisionors?

Of course it was not done by all Soldiers (thank god!) but many people believed the US boys could never do something like that. Now, where they have to face the facts, some of them start to think that maybe not everything they hear at home about the brave and honest US soldiers on one side and the hussein loyalists and al-quaida members on the other side is true too.

Again, tell me of a country, military, organization, that has never had people commit abuse.

There are 200,000 coalition military and civilians working hard to develop Iraq. The actions of a few dozen people are not representive of Coalition policy and efforts in Iraq. The Media have already failed in to report much the work the coalition is doing and now they are helping to create a false image of the coalition by not balancing the coverage of the entire situation in Iraq and focusing overwhelmingly on a scandel involving a few dozen people.

 

[STING2]

We supposedly went in there to stop torture, not to inflict it. The very least the media could do is to show us what these people are doing. The very fact that this was done by Americans.........I could scream. Like I said I feel terrible for the many decent soldiers who didn't do anything wrong, and have, in fact done much that's right. This is an unbelievably fd up state of affairs.

The very least the media could do is present a balanced view of the situation in Iraq instead of simply reporting scandals such as this. Of course they should and must report, by why do that at the expense of everything else that is going on in Iraq. Again, the actions of 200,000 people vs. a few dozen.

 

[STING2]

Sting, I do agree there is NOT enough coverage of the positive things.....yet...I do not know how you can tell someone in Iraq that we are good people when we, the occupiers begin to behave so badly. And I agree with you that we have done more good than is recognized, but one thing I know is that people remember the first and last impressions. I would add that people remember the best and the worst about others people.

While people can remember the good, this stain will also be upon us.

Why is it that the actions of a few dozen people are now suddenly representive of the actions of 200,000 people in Iraq? That does not make sense at all.

If you don't think its a few dozen people, please tell me specifically how many you think it is. Compare that to the total number of people working for the coalition under difficult conditions at the moment.

How can you judge the entire occupation based simply on the actions of a few dozen people and then declare that the occupiers behave so badly?

The United States is going to spend 60 Billion dollars in Iraq this year alone to secure it and make it a better place. Men and Women from all across the United States and other countries are risking their lives to make the lives of Iraqi citizens better.

Opinion polls of Iraqi's have already shown that the majority say their lives are better now than before the war. The Majority want coalition forces to remain in the country.

Unforunately, where most people get their first and last impressions is the media. The media is failing to balance their reporting by focusing all their time on this particular incident and failing to report all the other things that are going on in Iraq.

The majority of US troops that have come home from serving in Iraq specifically say the image that the media gives on the situation in Iraq is not the Iraq they experienced.


In any organization or group, there are bad apples who do bad things, but it is simply wrong to begin to say in various ways that those actions are now representive of the group as a whole and all the people in it.

Again, think about it this way, the actions of 200,000 people working for the coalition vs. the actions of a few dozen people. Which is more representive of the coalition's efforts in Iraq and which deserves the majority of the news coverage?

 

[ThatGuy]

I don't understand why people expect the media to evenly portray good and bad events in Iraq. Think about local media coverage in your town. Top stories are usually crime reports, murders, shootings, etc. Then maybe a little about local politics, and then maybe a "feel good" story about a local high school athlete, or something. Now, the majority of people in your city were not involved in violent crimes, but that doesn't stop the media from reporting them more prominently than positive news stories. What kind of news is more representitive of what's going on in your commuinty -- shootings and stabbings or the hundreds of "feel good" type stories that never get any airtime? And which deserve the majority of the news coverage? The fact of the matter is that the media NEVER take an even-handed stance on positive and negitive news items. Why hold them to a different standard in their reporting on Iraq?

 

[Klaus]

Sting:

Again, tell me of a country, military, organization, that has never had people commit abuse.

And that's exactly the reason why i don't like the idea to spread Democracy with weapons.
Also many people didn't believe that "their boys" could do masacres, it's only the army who dosn't have the possibliity who never tortures and abuses people.

By the way, do you think it's enough that "soldiers" like them are just thrown out of the army?

Klaus