When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

[what a bomb!]

Just some quotes to ponder , who do you think said them?

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."

"The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives."

"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from anything. Never!"

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. You ask, what is our policy? I say it is to wage war by land, sea and air--war with all our might and with all the strength God has given us--and to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy."

"If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

Could quite easily be about the current scenario today?

Well they were by no other then Winston Churchill and to me seem to ring true today!

Just imagine how many more Jews would of been exterminated in WW2 if we had left Hitler go unchecked? I'm fed up with listening to the bleeding hearts and hand-wringers about how wrong this war will be, so what do you want to do? give Saddam another 12 years to kill god knows how many more of his people? I firmly believe that more innocent people will be alive after the possible war then if we carry on the way it has been. Yes there are going to be innocent people and our troops killed in the conflict but sadly that is the sacrifice that has to be made. Someone come up with the idea to get rid of Saddam and his evil regime right here right now, not months and years of trying this or that without having to resort to military means then lets hear them! Its been 12 years so far and still he is power.To all those who don't want the war, well if you succeeded in doing so, I hope the blood on your hands that comes with Saddam still torturing his own people doesn't prick your conscience too much. Nobody likes war, nobody wants war , sometimes its the only way to free an oppressed people.

Sorry had to get that off my chest!

 

[ALEXRUS]

I firmly believe that more innocent people will be alive after the possible war then if we carry on the way it has been. Yes there are going to be innocent people and our troops killed in the conflict but sadly that is the sacrifice that has to be made.

We should not carry on the way it has been but it does not necessarily mean that we should start this war right now. Please, explain me WHY IT IS SO INDISPENSABLE TO START THIS WAR RIGHT NOW? Saddam's killing and torturing his people now? Saddam poses imminent threat to US? Laughable. U'd better look at Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and North Korea. guys. Why US Administration tolerates North Korea? I guess because it has both nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. And if you go in hard, you will get hurt.

I would remind you that IT WAS NOT SADDAM HUSSEiN who stopped UN inspections in 1998. It was Richard Butler, chief of the inspection team and US citizen by the way.

 

[what a bomb!]

maybe because if this conflict succeeds then the countries you mentioned my take heed. What gets me is all these people protesting outside government buildings with their placards "No War In Iraq", where the hell are they in "normal" times waving placards like "Stop The Torture In Iraq" ??? Hmmm seem to have a conscience when it suits them. There are no easy answers in this current situation, but I can see the need to remove Saddam by force.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

Saddam's killing and torturing his people now?

Are you trying to say he is not? Has not? I think that from conservative to liberal, we all believe that he has/is/will do so to his own people!

 

[Gickies Gageeze]

the americans torture people to, but theyre not considered human, theyre terrorists living on a base in cuba.

ofcourse, this is different. after all theyve all had a trial and are convicted criminals.

did i mention they all got lawyers?

 

[hiphop]

Re: Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

Are you trying to say he is not? Has not? I think that from conservative to liberal, we all believe that he has/is/will do so to his own people!

To imply that he has said Saddam is not torturing, is unfair in my opinion, Dreadsox. ALEXRUS has never said so.

"what a bomb": "seem to have a conscience when it suits them" applies to the current U.S. administration, and it is a false, lied kind of conscience, because President Bush has no conscience at all.

Like we have said hundreds of times, everyone can see the need to remove Saddam by force. Please note there is a difference if this happens legally, with a revolution of Iraqis who overthrow their brutal leader, or illegally, with the U.S. attacking, inflicting a war, and killing tens of thousands of people in the process.

Gickies: right, the so-called terrorists all got the greatest lawyers on earth. This is why they are in front of an international court, not in Cuba.

Big surprise, also in that case, the U.S. administration is not acting by legal terms.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: Re: Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

To imply that he has said Saddam is not torturing, is unfair in my opinion, Dreadsox. ALEXRUS has never said so.

I did not imply. I asked a question. I am not folling the logic of that part of his post.

However, your implying that I was a racist last month....that was unfair and pretty rotten.

But as you say......

 

[hiphop]

I did not imply. I asked a question. I am not folling the logic of that part of his post.

However, your implying that I was a racist last month....that was unfair and pretty rotten.

But as you say......

Ok, I take my above statement back, you didn?t imply, you just asked a question.

In my opinion, I have never implied you were a racist. I hope none of my comments evoked that sensation in you.

For the record: I don?t think Dreadsox is a racist.

Further discusiions about implications per pm, please

Like we have said hundreds of times, everyone can see the need to remove Saddam by force. Please note there is a difference if this happens legally, with a revolution of Iraqis who overthrow their brutal leader, or illegally, with the U.S. attacking, inflicting a war, and killing tens of thousands of people in the process.

Gickies: right, the so-called terrorists all got the greatest lawyers on earth. This is why they are in front of an international court, not in Cuba.

Big surprise, also in that case, the U.S. administration is not acting by legal terms.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: Re:When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

In my opinion, I have never implied you were a racist. I hope none of my comments evoked that sensation in you.

Dreadsox:

I understand your point of view. After all, they are just Arabs, ummm insects. Now hand me your spray can.

 

[U2Bama]

what a bomb!:

Those are some highly relevant quotes you posted; great thread. Definitely good talking points. I studied history in college and I have been reflecting on certain similarities between today's situations and post international conflicts, and you just enlightened my thoughts. Keep it up, and don't be denied.

It is bizarre that we are sitting here comparing the detention of terrorism suspects at Guatanamo Bay to the brutal acts that are committed by Saddam Hussein's regime on a regular basis.

~U2Alabama

 

[hiphop]

Just for clarification, full posts here:

Dreadsox:



"(...) The country has been working through the UN. I keep going through all the posts on this issue since last summer. Everyone complaining that Bush was going it alone and needed to work through the UN. The United States has. Tomorrow is another attempt to point out that the Iraqi Governement has repeatedly spit in the face of the United Nations and their resolutions. So far, the US has NOT acted without the support of the UN. Can you say the same things about Iraq?

(...)

Klaus, I am not debating the awful side effects of the A-Bomb. But, if this man uses Chemical or Biological agents in a war with the United States, it is 100% reasonable to expect the president to use any means necessary to protect Amercian lives."

whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:

"Dreadsox: How can he protect American lives if (supposed that your stategy is what Saddam plans) the chem/ bio agents are living in America?

By throwing an A bomb on another part of the earth?

BING! Answer: No.

What you mean is: To take revenge.

BING! Answer: yes (umm, no, its preempitive, innit - doesn?t qualify for revenge - its the other way round).

Second question. How can you be so full of propaganda to confuse protection of Americans with revenge?

Oh, I understand. You expect the Iraqis to be stupid! You expect them to say: first, our airpots are bombed. Then we will fly our agents to America. Yahoo!

I understand your point of view. After all, they are just Arabs, ummm insects. Now hand me your spray can."


STING2, later on:

"HIPHOP,

I don't know where you get off insinuating that Dreadsox is racist or thinks of Arabs as insects. One could easily say the same thing towards you in regards to Iraqi victims of Saddam or potential victims of WMD attacks in the region or around the world by Saddam. Both assertions are wrong."

---

You misunderstood me, if you think I was implying you were a racist. The last paragraph was cynical, using the term "spray can" instead of A-Bomb, referring to "any means necessary to protect American lives".

Actually, I agree that my remark may be exaggerated, though, and I tend to agree with STING2 on this one.

Show me an example where I actually said you were a racist, and quote whole posts, not a sentence ripped out of context.

And please do so per PM or open your own thread called "Hiphop implied I?m a racist - bashing here".

 

[Screaming Flower]

It is bizarre that we are sitting here comparing the detention of terrorism suspects at Guatanamo Bay to the brutal acts that are committed by Saddam Hussein's regime on a regular basis.

i agree.

 

[elfyx]

I guess a wrong-doing is a wrong-doing, no matter what it is or to which 'degree' they are seperated. They are both born of the same place...

 

[Dreadsox]

HipHop...No misunderstanding.....it is all very clear.

Obviously I am too stupid to grasp the complexities of your posting.

It was a compliment to say that I believe "Arabs are insects".


On a side note:

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

This quote really applies to Bush!!!!!!!

 

[hiphop]

HipHop...No misunderstanding.....it is all very clear.

Obviously I am too stupid to grasp the complexities of your posting.

It was a compliment to say that I believe "Arabs are insects".

I don?t think you are stupid.

I guess you were hurt by my comment.

Sorry, I didn?t mean to.

 

[Dreadsox]

Sorry, I didn?t mean to.

Peace Hip hop.

 

[hiphop]

Fine, Peace, Dreadsox.

 

[Dreadsox]

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

Maybe this applies more to Tony Blair today than Bush!

 

[Angela Harlem]

Guys!

Argh!



*runs around in circles and collapses after banging into the wall*

 

[Dreadsox]

"If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

This makes me think of North Korea!!!!

 

[what a bomb!]

Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

This makes me think of North Korea!!!!

That last line about "its better to perosh then live as slaves" I think is quite debatable!

U2Bama thanks for the support.

 

[ALEXRUS]

Re: Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

Are you trying to say he is not? Has not? I think that from conservative to liberal, we all believe that he has/is/will do so to his own people!

Well, he did it a lot of times which did not prevent Mr.Rumsfeld from meeting him in Bagdad and shaking his hand in 1980s during Reagan's administration. Mr.Rumsfeld was perfectly aware of whose hand (with blood of innocent people on it) he was shaking but that time US was supporting Iraq in the war against Iran. Didn't you see the TV footage of Mr.Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand?
I do have serious doubts that Saddam has been torturing his people during inspections. He does not look mad and he is not.

 

[ALEXRUS]

Besides, I think would be more appropriate for the US to let the inspections go on. Nobody has ever given convincing facts that it is indispensable to start the war right now. We all supported 1441 resolution UNANIMOUSLY and if there were violations of the resolution we would support use of force. But US does not care about others' opinion. Now Iran, Pakistan and North Korea are doing their best to produce as much nuclear weapons as it is possible. They see that without it they may perfectly share the fate of Iraq. Will it make our world safer? I hope u know what you're doing, guys.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: Re: Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

Well, he did it a lot of times which did not prevent Mr.Rumsfeld from meeting him in Bagdad and shaking his hand in 1980s during Reagan's administration. Mr.Rumsfeld was perfectly aware of whose hand (with blood of innocent people on it) he was shaking but that time US was supporting Iraq in the war against Iran. Didn't you see the TV footage of Mr.Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand?
I do have serious doubts that Saddam has been torturing his people during inspections. He does not look mad and he is not.

Yes...I think I have written about Mr. Rumsfeld shaking his hand in the 1980's. It has something to do with the Cold War, Oil, and Iran if I remember right. Something to do with making friends with him to prevent the Soviet Union from getting to cozy with him. Yes...that is it.

Oh yes...the Soviet Union was supplying Saddam too if I am not mistaken? Wouldn't that explain all of the equiptment that did not work in the first Gulf War?

 

[Dreadsox]

Besides, I think would be more appropriate for the US to let the inspections go on. Nobody has ever given convincing facts that it is indispensable to start the war right now. We all supported 1441 resolution UNANIMOUSLY and if there were violations of the resolution we would support use of force. But US does not care about others' opinion. Now Iran, Pakistan and North Korea are doing their best to produce as much nuclear weapons as it is possible. They see that without it they may perfectly share the fate of Iraq. Will it make our world safer? I hope u know what you're doing, guys.

Yes it is much more appropriate to continue sanctions and let more people die on a yearly basis than died in the first Gulf War.

There are violations of 1441. Let's start with the documents that were presented that do not address the issue. Saddam has cooperated JUST enough. Time to move on tired of JUST enough.

 

[ALEXRUS]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber

Oh yes...the Soviet Union was supplying Saddam too if I am not mistaken? Wouldn't that explain all of the equiptment that did not work in the first Gulf War?

Absolutely. Soviet Union did supply him with military equipment. But long before Mr.Rumsfeld visited him. Supplies stopped immediately when Saddam started torturing and fusilating communists. Rumsfeld's visit had nothing to do with the Cold War. It had to do with US's concern about Iran. Your memory fails Dreadsox. Soviet equipment supplied became more than obsolete by 1990.
Soviet Union, by the way, voted in favour of the Gulf War. That war was legal.
Besides, USSR had official ideology - communism. Russia now does not have official ideology whatsoever. But what happened to US and Mr.Rumsfeld. Nothing. What was expedient that time is not expedient now. That's it.

 

[Dreadsox]

Please...detail exactly what Mr. Rumsfeld supplied the Iraqi's.

BTW my memory is pretty good and Russia was in bed with Saddam too. Thank you! As they are NOW!!!

Thank you!

 

[ALEXRUS]

There are violations of 1441. Let's start with the documents that were presented that do not address the issue. Saddam has cooperated JUST enough. Time to move on tired of JUST enough.

That is what you and SOME people in US administartion think. Overwhelming majority of the world community thinks otherwise.
But it does not matter. According to 1441 resolution (supported by US by the way) only inspectors can provide information on what's going on Iraq in terms of disarmament and ONLY UN Security Council IS ENTITLED to make conclusions on the basis of their information whether Iraq cooperates or not.

 

[Dreadsox]

If you want to debate the UN Resolutions there is a thread here for that.

"The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives."


The alternatives were the security council!

 

[ALEXRUS]

The alternatives were the security council!

There's nothing to debate.
UNSC is not an alternative. It is the only way to proceed. Has been. Until recently. I do regret that this administration opted for Lynch law in international relations. What a bad example set. Nevertheless I hope US will remain the strongest power. I definitely prefer the worst US administration to any "good" Islamic extremist/terrorist.