What's the deal?

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TripThruUreWires

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I meant to express a little while back, but never got the chance to:

often, i don't like how this board is so one-sided on certain issues and intolerant of certain beliefs (which, i might add is ironic considering argument they are trying to convey). this is usually the case when it comes to homosexuality. why is it that i always feel an individual on this board cannot hold the stance that perhaps homosexuality is a sin, (and therefore not be advocated) without being deemed homophobic or such? don't get me wrong, i've seen intolerance on this board...but that goes for all sides. i'm not ashamed of my beliefs, but that doesn't make me a bad person or anyone else who happens to share that same view.

have any of you heard of the phrase: loving the sinner but hating the sin ?
 
TripThruUreWires said:
often, i don't like how this board is so one-sided on certain issues and intolerant of certain beliefs (which, i might add is ironic considering argument they are trying to convey). this is usually the case when it comes to homosexuality. why is it that i always feel an individual on this board cannot hold the stance that perhaps homosexuality is a sin, (and therefore not be advocated) without being deemed homophobic or such? don't get me wrong, i've seen intolerance on this board...but that goes for all sides.

Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic. Homophobia is usually defined as "fear of or contempt for lesbians or gay men" so surely claiming homosexuality is a sin falls into the category of "contempt."

As for whether people at FYM are intolerant, well the only people I'm intolerant towards are those who are intolerant themselves. That means I don't sit back and listen to racist or sexist or homophobic comments because I think that listening to those comments without opposing them implies that I agree with them.

If people speaking out against prejudice makes those who hold prejudiced views feel less able to express them then I think it's a positive thing. I think we should all be able to have reasonable discussions in which people with vastly different opinions can participate, I just don't think that homophobia, racism, sexism or any other prejudice have any place in those discussions.
 
People are certainly free to hold the belief that homosexuality is a sin. But if they don't want to be bothered about it, then they should keep that belief to themselves. If they are willing to "come out" (LOL!) against homosexuality, then they should realize that they will have to deal with lots of people who believe they are wrong.

If you can't take the heat, get out of FYM.

And "love the sinner, hate the sin" is one of those expressions you hear a lot about gay people, but no one ever really talks about spreading the love to serial killers and rapists. I've always thought that "love the sinner, hate the sin" is "Christians'" way of making themselves feel better about being homophobic.
 
Re: Re: What's the deal?

FizzingWhizzbees said:


Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic. Homophobia is usually defined as "fear of or contempt for lesbians or gay men" so surely claiming homosexuality is a sin falls into the category of "contempt."


No. No no no.

I believe drug use is a sin, but I don't necessarily fear or hold in contempt people who use drugs.
 
hey, fizzy, people who believe it is a sin are not saying so out of contempt.
they take it from the Bible where it clearly states one man is not to sleep with another

I guess God is homophobic eh?
OR
he created male and female with compatible anatomy capable of reproduction and dislikes it when people ignore this very significant aspect of his creation

male/male partnerships are not meant to be. No body can look me straight in the face and tell me it is natural. Even if you look at it from an athiests point of view, believing in evolution.

Quite cleary, the male and female have evolved to reproduce. No where does nature intend males to mate with males...this simply does not work from a evolutionary point of view.

HOWEVER
before you all tear me a new one...

I am not homophobic
I even doubt God will keep them from heaven. I'd suggest that he'd very much prefer they stick with his original intentions but I can't see him casting them into hell because of it!!!:eek: God loves them just as much as he loves me.

I'm just not sure about the Bible anymore...I think somethings that are there were added by the ultra conservative catholic priests and monks of the middle ages.
I can't see an all loving God denying somebody heaven because they are gay.

anyway...that's it
 
Homosexuality
Abortion.
Topics like these..are expolsive and volitale to some:idea:
They dont need to be.
I sorta agree w Bass.
I kinda understand Trip:idea:

That said Ive known both Hetro/Homosexuals both to have good and bad characters..

So in a nutshell-
What Bass said-sorta.

Peace
Out
DB9
:idea::dance: :cool:
 
Re: Re: What's the deal?

FizzingWhizzbees said:


Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic. Homophobia is usually defined as "fear of or contempt for lesbians or gay men" so surely claiming homosexuality is a sin falls into the category of "contempt."

As for whether people at FYM are intolerant, well the only people I'm intolerant towards are those who are intolerant themselves. That means I don't sit back and listen to racist or sexist or homophobic comments because I think that listening to those comments without opposing them implies that I agree with them.

If people speaking out against prejudice makes those who hold prejudiced views feel less able to express them then I think it's a positive thing. I think we should all be able to have reasonable discussions in which people with vastly different opinions can participate, I just don't think that homophobia, racism, sexism or any other prejudice have any place in those discussions.

Exactly.

As for homosexuality, if you honestly believe it's a sin...*shrugs*. Whatever. I don't agree with you, because I really fail to see what is so "sinful" about homosexuality and have no problem with it, but you are entitled to your opinion, just like I'm entitled to mine.

Angela
 
Paxetaurora said it best; if you can't take the heat, get out of FYM.

It is one thing to have controversial views, another is to have the forsight that because they ARE controversial a lot of people are not going to agree with you, possibly even flame you. From this, you can deduce whether or not your views are right and should be upheld by you, or that they are in fact wrong and FYM has served the purpose of altering your perceptions.

FYM is in the business of building and breaking religions, expanding and contracting the mind, solving problems and creating whole new ones. It is extremely taxing, both intellectualy and emotionally. Thus, its the very nature of the forum to be confrontational, angry and intensely passionate over a great number of things.

I'm all for attacking opinions, why on Earth not? Attacking people, is a whole other issue. You have to separate the opinion from the person, because more often than not, you will never fully know the person.

For instance, I do think that the view in question is homophobic, and it serves a homophobic purpose.

Challenge your perceptions, before your perceptions challenge you.

Ant.
 
for this particular issue, you have to realize the difference between disagreeing with homosexuality and being a homophobe. Disagreeing with homosexuality means you think, based on the Bible or natural law etc., that homosexuality is a sin. That's fine, I respect that even if I don't agree with it. Being a homophobe means you say stupid crap like "All fags just need to get back to their fairie interior decorating and leave the rest of us alone." I don't support that.

As for FYM, yep, if you can't handle the heat etc. etc. I actually like the heat because it really makes me examine myself-- look at issues from a different point of view or try to defend my own beliefs with something more substantial than "Because I said so and therefore you're wrong."
 
Homosexuality is not a choice, so if infact God created all living things, he purposely created homosexuals. Following this logic, why should God have a problem with homosexuality?
 
TripThruUreWires said:
I meant to express a little while back, but never got the chance to:

often, i don't like how this board is so one-sided on certain issues and intolerant of certain beliefs (which, i might add is ironic considering argument they are trying to convey). this is usually the case when it comes to homosexuality. why is it that i always feel an individual on this board cannot hold the stance that perhaps homosexuality is a sin, (and therefore not be advocated) without being deemed homophobic or such? don't get me wrong, i've seen intolerance on this board...but that goes for all sides. i'm not ashamed of my beliefs, but that doesn't make me a bad person or anyone else who happens to share that same view.

have any of you heard of the phrase: loving the sinner but hating the sin ?

I think what we often forget is that homosexuals are real people with real emotions. It isn't a political movement, like choosing to be a Republican or a Democrat. It isn't a religious movement, like choosing to be a Catholic or a Buddhist. It isn't an ideology, like being a liberal or a conservative. It isn't a lifestyle, like being a punk or a prep.

And, yet, if you hear some of the language emanating from anti-gay religions, it eliminates the entire human element. Dehumanize your enemy and you make it easy to hate. Homosexuals want the same thing as everyone else: to have a life, to love, have a family, etc. They just want to share their life with someone of the same sex. You'd be surprised how many homosexuals are Christian, and how many would still be Christian if they weren't cast out.

"Loving the sinner and hating the sin" is just like "separate but equal"--a figment of imagination designed to absolve the oppressor from guilt, while still maintaining the sense of dominance.

I will just ask you this: if your sexuality were forbidden by religion, what would you do? Would you suddenly be able to turn off what you feel? Would you suppress what you feel? Would you feel comfortable with how you are treated in society? Would you be satisfied, knowing that you will never be able to love anyone? Would you be satisfied with how your religion would treat you?

Do I make you uncomfortable? I have no problems with you disagreeing, but expect others not to follow suit.

Melon
 
Re: Re: What's the deal?

melon said:


"Loving the sinner and hating the sin" is just like "separate but equal"--a figment of imagination designed to absolve the oppressor from guilt, while still maintaining the sense of dominance.
 
Re: Re: What's the deal?

FizzingWhizzbees said:


Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic.

that is a f*cked up statement in itself, and i think even those individuals who disagree with my stance would at least agree with me here. rash and idiotic statements such as yours merely go to validate my point. the second someone disagrees with homosexuality in here, they are automatically "homophobic". i do NOT hold cotempt for any human being who leads a gay lifestyle. i have never ever uttered some of the hateful words often used in reference to gay people, nor have i embraced what i even feel are unfair stereotypes. i'm not out to judge homosexuals. that's not my place. i'm simply a person who lives by faith (and not blindly) in my God and His word, and at the same time i understand that not everyone will agree with me. that's fine. you or anyone else for that matter can argue and discuss your own stance on the issue as much you desire...i have absolutely no problem with that. i CAN take the "heat". however, no one has the right to label me or anyone a "homophobe" or a "bad person" unless it's well-deserved! and yet, so many of you do in your blind passion. that's all i'm saying.




That means I don't sit back and listen to racist or sexist or homophobic comments because I think that listening to those comments without opposing them implies that I agree with them.

that's fine. no problem.

If people speaking out against prejudice makes those who hold prejudiced views feel less able to express them then I think it's a positive thing.

me too.

I think we should all be able to have reasonable discussions in which people with vastly different opinions can participate

ditto.

I just don't think that homophobia, racism, sexism or any other prejudice have any place in those discussions.

me neither.


btw, i do admire the way in which melon argues his points and presents his opinions (despite the fact that i may not agree with him at times). he's able to keep a cool head and maintain his dignity without compromising his argument, unlike some people here.
 
I think Melon's response was very respectful yet effective in demostrating the reality of the issue.

Yet some of the other responses disappoint me; if someone' religious doctrine (or scientific/medical or whatever theories) are critical of physical homosexual activity, it does not automatically make that person a "homophobe" (one who is fearful of homosexuals/homosexuality); to accuse them of such is nothing more than juvenile name calling. And to say "if you can't take the heat, get out of FYM" is a trite contradiction, isn't it? we all know that this place is ideally about free speech and the open exchange of ideas, then shouldn't someone such as Trip be allowed to point out that certain religions do consider homosexuality, fornication, beer-drinking, polyester clothing, and eating pork a sin, without her being labelled as "phobic" of such indulgences?

Just a thought for you to ponder.

~U2Alabama
 
Here in Alabama, many people in rural areas have phobias against pig farmers because of the environmental side effects that their operations bring to the area. Pig farms are very stinky, and if they propose opening a farm next to a residential area, the residents "fear" it due to the stinch that will permeate the area and the loss of property values which will possibly follow. Diamond's phobia is not entirely unfounded.

~U2Alabama
 
Zooropa said:
Homosexuality is not a choice, so if infact God created all living things, he purposely created homosexuals. Following this logic, why should God have a problem with homosexuality?

There is no proof that Homosexuality is genetic, or hereditary, or anything similar. If anything influences someone's sexual preferences, it's his environment... not his DNA or genes.

God did in fact create all living things. And it was the reproductive system between a male and a female that enabled those living things to procreate and stay on the earth.

I believe that someone could argue from a biological standpoint that if in fact, homosexuality was related to genes, then it would be a detrimental mutation, since it kept them from being able to pass their genes on to another animal. But like I said, that's IF it was genetic, which it isn't.

Many people change their sexual orientation several times in their lifetime. Some change from heterosexuality to homosexuality (and vice versa) after years of living in one way. It's a choice, or a decision based on several factors like conditioning, environment, input, etc.

If someone says that the above post makes me homophobic, then you've clearly misread the post and the intention behind it.
 
Zooropa said:
Homosexuality is not a choice, so if infact God created all living things, he purposely created homosexuals.

by this same logic, God also "created" newborns with heart defects and other devastating abnoralities in health...that's not to say we embrace and celebrate those "inherent" things...we don't just sit back and allow these things to run their course. in my opinion, individuals wanting or engaging in fornification with the same sex (because of a supposedly "natural" inclination or by choice) have a defect/abnorality.

if you choose to believe that homosexuals are "born" that way, and if you know anything about the God of Christianity, it would be false to claim that He "purposely" instills or creates an inclination in men for something in which He clearly condemns. If you are familiar with the Bible, you also know about the Fall of man, in which descendants of Adam and Eve would be plagued with all sorts of disease (inclusive of the mind and hearts of men). so you cannot claim that He brings about or "creates" these abominations.

if God is in fact perfectly okay with homosexuality--wow, it's pretty damn unfair that He never blessed these individuals with the ability to pro-create, isn't it? Now that would be pretty unjust for God to have such favor with only those who engage in heterosexual fornification...wouldn't it? The God i know and believe in is far from unjust.
 
Is being gay natural? i dont think so

is being gay wrong? no

is it a sin? maybe, but who really has the list of sins

does a gay person fell atracted sexually to another (wo)man or do they love them from the heart or both?

Do you love your best friend?

Would you have sex with them?

What i think that gay men must like to have sex with eachother.
 
Ok just stop.
Guys/Girls..
See once you start saying or making a correlation between ppl w heart defects and ppl having homosexual tendencies having a "defect"" you WILL ignite a war here.
It will become ugly..

Can we just be inclusionary here?:wave:
As Bono is inclusionary?:wave:

Thanks-
DB9
 
diamond said:
Ok just stop.
Guys/Girls..
See once you start saying or making a correlation between ppl w heart defects and ppl having homosexual tendencies having a "defect"" you WILL ignite a war here.
It will become ugly..


As someone with a heart defect, I must agree. What I have was corrected by surgery. I don't feel gay people have anything that needs to be "corrected." Let's not get ugly.
 
U2Bama said:
And to say "if you can't take the heat, get out of FYM" is a trite contradiction, isn't it? we all know that this place is ideally about free speech and the open exchange of ideas, then shouldn't someone such as Trip be allowed to point out that certain religions do consider homosexuality, fornication, beer-drinking, polyester clothing, and eating pork a sin, without her being labelled as "phobic" of such indulgences?

Just a thought for you to ponder.

~U2Alabama

But no one is stopping Trip from saying whatever she believes. She's perfectly allowed to say it. Neither me nor any of the other mods edited or deleted her post, so she has been allowed to say her peace just as freely as everyone else. It's not our problem that she happens to be in the minority. If she doesn't want to be in the minority on this one, she can:

1.) Try to round up some other more conservative posters to support her; OR
2.) Post about this on a different forum in which she'll likely have more supporters.

As for her being labeled "phobic," well, that all depends on your definition. Some people feel that labeling homosexuals as "deviants" or "sinners" in their own category qualifies as homophobic. I leave it up to all of you to decide what homophobia is, but I hate when people seem to believe that gay people are somehow worse sinners (if homosexuality or homosexual acts are in fact sins at all, which I don't believe they are) than the rest of us. It's homophobia in my book.
 
Sorry; I just found the
paxetaurora said:
If you can't take the heat, get out of FYM.
statement to be an open invitation for people to flame Trip and call her names just for posting a question she had.

In divisive threads on other topics, there have been instances of someone posting a controversial viewpoint, opinion, theory or whatever, and someone else, be they conservative, liberal, etc., says "that is offensive" and people start running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

I think it can go both ways on any topic.

~U2Alabama
 
Point taken. Myself and the other mods will make every attempt to ascertain that no one is abused for their viewpoints.

Carry on, I'm going to bed. I have a wicked headache.
 
Yes...

Bono's American Wife said:


As someone with a heart defect, I must agree. What I have was corrected by surgery. I don't feel gay people have anything that needs to be "corrected." Let's not get ugly.

Exactly.

Someone said, "Is homosexuality natural" and answered their own question with "no". I personally don't see why homosexuality isn't considered "natural" by some people, but that's just me. *shrugs*

Angela
 
If homosexuality is a sin, then God sure did create an awful lot of us with sins. Sin under the biblical definition exists in most of us in one way. How many suffer the unfortunate defect of pride? I do. Lust. I am guilty. Why do we place homosexuality as a sin, in worse esteem than others? Why do we single it out over so many that fall into black and white sins set out by God?

While it is fantastic that people can be honest enough with themselves and others to voice their disagreement with it, lets not elevate it to some kind of super sin status.
 
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