What would you look for in a church?

[stammer476]

As I've said here before, I'm one of the pastors at a church here in the Detroit area. We've been growing in the last few years and are relocating to a larger building within a few months.

But instead of just a relocation of the church, we're looking for more of a "re-launch." We want to treat this as a new church entirely, with a fresh philosophy and method for meeting needs.

So my question to all of you is, What would you look for in a church? No matter what your history with church or religion has been, what kinds of things would you want to see in a church? What would make you come to a church for the first time?

Answer as honestly as you like. Answer with specifics or philosophies. I think we've got a pretty diverse group here, so I'd love to know what the people of Intereference would want to see in a church. Thanks for your help!

 

[bobbyhewson]

church has become synonomous with a social club - a place where u have to compete with other churchies and try to convince them that you are a good person. it is an act of piety and self righteousness and unless u are part of the core circle of members it usually makes people worse about themselves and other attenders. so i have made my church home with pastor pillows and deacon sheetz.

 

[BluRmGrl]

I'd really like to see more churches use the Scriptures to teach us tolerance of each other & our faults. Not just to point out how "we" are better than "them" because of this, that, or the other. Because we've ALL fallen short of the grace of God. I seem to recall there being something about "Judge not, lest ye be judged" mentioned.....

I'd like to see a pastor who doesn't gloss over our faults - humans are terribly flawed creatures & we've all done things we're ashamed of - but one that didn't constantly browbeat parishoners either. Those who accept Christ do so based on the fact that we ARE flawed, but He still accepts us. We HAVE sinned and will do so again, but through our repentence and Jesus' sacrifice, we can be forgiven. I just don't think we should have to constantly feel like trash in the sight of God because of our shortcomings.... isn't the whole point of coming into God's fold not only eternal life, but to be a "new creature", fresh & clean???

I don't mean to suggest that church should always be a warm & fuzzy experience - we need to address the uglier, darker side of ourselves. I just think if you're going to try & convince people that the Bible is "Good News", shouldn't it be just that, instead of a weapon to beat people over the head with?

 

[musiclover2004]

I was a church hopper for years. I never could find the "right" one, something would always bother me about the church.

Then I realized, that I was looking at it the wrong way. I was looking for what the church could do for me instead of what I could bring to the church. Once, I realized that I was able to find a church that not only fit my philosophy, but one that I could contribute to as well.

You can't be all things to all people, but there are certain things that I find most important.

1)A welcoming and loving pastor
2) A pastor who sets the example as to how he expects his congregation to treat guests and new members
3) A welcoming committee that doesn't overwhelm, but helps guests and new members navigate the different programs, classes, etc. that the church offers

Good luck!

 

[Irvine511]

active community service that is anti-evangelical in nature

receptive to people from all walks of life

apolitical

 

[nbcrusader]

First and foremost, the Statement of Faith.

I'd then notice the following things:

Is the worship God-focused?
Are Bibles made available (in the pews)?
Does the pastor cite Scripture?
Is a hymnal used?
Are all clergy and congregants on the same level (not physically - we are all sinners and all need to be there)?
Does the Pastor preach, teach, pastor?
Does Scripture get lost in pop psychology or modern marketing?
Does the children's program feed meat or milk?

 

[stammer476]

First and foremost, the Statement of Faith.

It's interesting you mention that, because we've been debating on whether or not to include that in our mailing advertisements. I'm on the side that says we shouldn't include it, because for the majority, it will only give them reasons NOT to visit the church. My attitude is that we'd rather have them come and see what the church is like before we get into specifics of doctrine, because if you can make personal connections and enjoy the service, you might be more open minded about some specific beliefs.

 

[melon]

This is what I always wanted, even though I doubt it will ever exist:

1) A church that does not use "unpopular groups" as scapegoats for all the world's ills, and welcomes everyone without judgment. Everyone is responsible for what's wrong or right with the world, and since macro-level help is not always possible, an emphasis on micro-level help (like volunteering at soup kitchens, etc.) would be a good idea. Good works as an expression of faith.

2) A church that allows for full compatibility between faith and science/reason. That is, when it comes to the "evolution" debate, a church that takes on the side of "evolutionary creationism" (a.k.a., "theistic evolution"), and teaches that, even if the universe is 13 billion years old that was created from a single point, science can never explain where that "single point" came from and that God sparked that "Big Bang." This is different from "intelligent design" in that "ID" actively engages in pseudoscience to "prove" the existence of God in creation, whereas "evolutionary creationism" looks at the secular science, accepts it for what it is, and attributes it to God. Major difference.

3) Emphasizes "love" as "the law," and rather than burdening people with the Ten Commandments, which doesn't cover everything, burden them with "love," which covers all of the Ten Commandments and everything else:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10

Challenge your congregation to ponder the meaning of "love" on a regular basis, and try to make them "love" in increasingly challenging methods. Even Jesus said to "Love your enemies and do good to those who hurt you."

4) Make it apolitical and non-fearmongering. American culture has been based too much on "fear" instead of "love," and such incessant "fear" has not always had the most positive cultural results over the last 400 years.

5) Insist on engaging the congregation and try to actively have them contribute to the services here and there using their God-given talents. Seek out and encourage interesting speakers to make occasional guest sermons.

6) And, adding to that, make it entertaining, embracing different kinds of music (you are in a U2 forum after all; you'd have to expect this answer. )

Well, that's what I'd do, if I were starting my own church.

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

friendly, accepting of all people, loving supportive environment, approachable ministry, truly involved in charity and charitable works

equality for women is important to me

I love good music in church too, as trivial as that may seem. I think it's an important part of worship.

 

[nbcrusader]

It's interesting you mention that, because we've been debating on whether or not to include that in our mailing advertisements. I'm on the side that says we shouldn't include it, because for the majority, it will only give them reasons NOT to visit the church. My attitude is that we'd rather have them come and see what the church is like before we get into specifics of doctrine, because if you can make personal connections and enjoy the service, you might be more open minded about some specific beliefs.

I wouldn't include a Statement of Faith in advertising for the reasons you state. People with a misconception could read a certain point and use it as a reason not to go.

I'd want to see a Statement of Faith to make sure the "indisputables" are there. Disputable issues, such as style of baptism, escatology, etc. need not be part of the Statement.

 

[stammer476]

I wouldn't include a Statement of Faith in advertising for the reasons you state. People with a misconception could read a certain point and use it as a reason not to go.

I'd want to see a Statement of Faith to make sure the "indisputables" are there. Disputable issues, such as style of baptism, escatology, etc. need not be part of the Statement.

 

[stammer476]

This is what I always wanted, even though I doubt it will ever exist:

1) A church that does not use "unpopular groups" as scapegoats for all the world's ills, and welcomes everyone without judgment. Everyone is responsible for what's wrong or right with the world, and since macro-level help is not always possible, an emphasis on micro-level help (like volunteering at soup kitchens, etc.) would be a good idea. Good works as an expression of faith.

2) A church that allows for full compatibility between faith and science/reason. That is, when it comes to the "evolution" debate, a church that takes on the side of "evolutionary creationism" (a.k.a., "theistic evolution"), and teaches that, even if the universe is 13 billion years old that was created from a single point, science can never explain where that "single point" came from and that God sparked that "Big Bang." This is different from "intelligent design" in that "ID" actively engages in pseudoscience to "prove" the existence of God in creation, whereas "evolutionary creationism" looks at the secular science, accepts it for what it is, and attributes it to God. Major difference.

3) Emphasizes "love" as "the law," and rather than burdening people with the Ten Commandments, which doesn't cover everything, burden them with "love," which covers all of the Ten Commandments and everything else:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10

Challenge your congregation to ponder the meaning of "love" on a regular basis, and try to make them "love" in increasingly challenging methods. Even Jesus said to "Love your enemies and do good to those who hurt you."

4) Make it apolitical and non-fearmongering. American culture has been based too much on "fear" instead of "love," and such incessant "fear" has not always had the most positive cultural results over the last 400 years.

5) Insist on engaging the congregation and try to actively have them contribute to the services here and there using their God-given talents. Seek out and encourage interesting speakers to make occasional guest sermons.

6) And, adding to that, make it entertaining, embracing different kinds of music (you are in a U2 forum after all; you'd have to expect this answer. )

Well, that's what I'd do, if I were starting my own church.

Melon

Wow.

Great comments, Melon. I wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you've written (with some exceptions about #2).

Concerning that one, I've always been a little hesitant to get specific on issues like this. I don't really consider it a salvation issue, and therefore I'm not very comfortable stating "this is what this church believes." I've ignored the evolution - creation debate for the most part in my teaching. The only areas I'm concerned with addressing are the extreme positions of "science is anti-God" and "the church is anti-science."

Unfortunatley, I think this issue has become more political than scientific. And I don't want to divide people within the church over something political.

I've not always held this opinion, but rather something I've come to with experience. The church should be about fighting the bigger issues, and for right now I don't see the nuances of scientific theory as one of them.

It sounds like we agree on how to run a church more than I thought we would. Say, you're not too far from the south side, are you?

 

[melon]

Concerning that one, I've always been a little hesitant to get specific on issues like this. I don't really consider it a salvation issue, and therefore I'm not very comfortable stating "this is what this church believes." I've ignored the evolution - creation debate for the most part in my teaching. The only areas I'm concerned with addressing are the extreme positions of "science is anti-God" and "the church is anti-science."

Unfortunatley, I think this issue has become more political than scientific. And I don't want to divide people within the church over something political.

I've not always held this opinion, but rather something I've come to with experience. The church should be about fighting the bigger issues, and for right now I don't see the nuances of scientific theory as one of them.

I'd actually agree with you here. It's completely irrelevant to matters of faith, so to completely not bring it up at all is not a bad idea.

I guess, in this instance, if someone asked for pastoral advice regarding science, I would say that, in that eventual case, I would advise that science and faith are not mutually exclusive, and tell the hypothetical person that even if science could trace the creation of the universe all the way back to the beginning, that science will never explain where that singular "beginning" came from. That is, if the Big Bang started 13 billion years ago from a singular point, science can never explain where that "singular point" came from, and that everything is an expression of God's creation.

As such, my overall point is to make more scientifically and higher-educated Christians feel welcome, in addition to the rest of society. A lot of scientists admit to believing in God, but would never even consider abandoning their knowledge and belief in science. They have no problem reconciling the two, so I don't see why religion has to make a big deal about it.

But you're right. It's not important for faith, so there's no need to preach to the masses scientific theory. I do think that individual pastoral cases, however, are inevitable.

Melon

 

[2Hearts]

Challenge your congregation to ponder the meaning of "love" on a regular basis, and try to make them "love" in increasingly challenging methods. Even Jesus said to "Love your enemies and do good to those who hurt you."

You're definitely onto something. Trying to make Christ-like love the cool thing to do is very hard. I believe it could be done though.

"Give me a love that's hard, as hard as hate" - Bono in "Levitate"

 

[BonosSaint]

More Jesus's teachings, less Paul's. I find in most of the churches I've seen, the emphasis is often on Paul. Perhaps as Melon implies, Christ's commandments seem to make people a little uncomfortable, because you are forced to find fault with yourself more than with other people.

Discussion groups where you can can get more than the pat answers given in a lot of churches, including what the responsibilities are for a Christian in this day and age. Acknowledgment that doubt and anger at God are often understandable, that faith is a journey, not a destination. Understanding that people will interpret the scriptures differently and those voices should be heard too.

More of an emphasis on the day to day evils people commit--bigotry, unfairness, lack of compassion, hypocrisy. Some churches are big on vices, not so much on the other things that drive people from the church.

Revolving leaderships so no one group takes over the running of the church. Of course, that will be moot since most people won't want to do anything.

Less of an us against them mentality.

 

[BVS]

The one thing I look for in a Church happens to be the one thing that's the hardest to find in most...


















God.

 

[verte76]

There have been some great comments made here and I can't add to them. I particularly agree with melon's comments about love. I happen to be Catholic, and when I went to confession last week my priest actually said I judge myself too harshly. This is something I struggle with every day. Also I think churches should make it clear that disabled people are welcome and have a valuable role to play in the faith community.

 

[Landslide]

Excellent!... A chance to push my ideals and agend... Ahem... I mean...uh... what a good topic... Here are my thoughts.

btw, "long time listener, back-again caller". I am a Prodigal Son Catholic. I've gone full circle. Ended up feeding the swine and eatin some of it too while cursing a non-existent God... that I was not worthy to be loved by anyway.... that was of course before I was pulled up out of the mud onto a firm rock.

Anyway, I once heard a learned man say:
"If you have come to church to get something,... If you have come to church to get re-energized; to get fed; to get a good feeling from the choir; to get a good homily (sermon)...
If you have come here to "get something"... You have come to the wrong place!


We don't come to church to get fed, to get re-energized, to get anything!
We come to church to glorify God! To thank God! To praise God!

... Now God comes to do something... And you WILL be fed, you WILL be re-energized. But it is God that does it... Not the rite, not the priest (pastor), not the choir... God does it. And you'll only experience it, as much as you are willing to meet God halfway."

There is a lot to be said for having an alive, friendly, inviting, and energetic church community (as I have been blessed enough to have found in a Catholic... yes! Catholic Church... Go figure!), but should it not have boundaries to it's teaching and its beliefs based ON scripture (if it is to be based on the teaching of Yeshua... The one who would turn son against father, daughter against mother...)? Religion always excludes at some point.

You know... I want to go to a U2 concert without having to buy a ticket, without having to stand in line. I want to be at the very front of the stage. I want them to play what I want to hear and I want Bono to like it that way.

Anyway... In case youre wondering, here's an interview with the learned man I quoted:

www.
uscatholic.org/2002/08/featd0208.htm


Peace and blessings.

 

[nbcrusader]

The one thing I look for in a Church happens to be the one thing that's the hardest to find in most...


















God.

I agree with you - very much so.

Too often church members feel they need to mimic the world to gain numbers and forget God in the process.

 

[BVS]

I agree with you - very much so.

 

[2Hearts]

The one thing I look for in a Church happens to be the one thing that's the hardest to find in most...


















God.

Excellent post. Some days, I leave my church feeling that I have met God. More frequently though, I just feel like I've had a pleasant time. That's not all bad though. I spend enough time on my own worshipping, praying, studying, etc. to maintain a close relationship with God. If I didn't do that, and I depended on the few hours that I spend at church each week for spiritual health, then I'd be severely lacking intimacy w/ God. That being said, I still feel that attending and serving my church is an integral part of living out my faith.

 

[Liesje]

Personally, I prefer a more traditional worship style and a focus on the church as a community rather than so much focus on the actual church services. Of course, going for the first few times, you don't really know the people so you're going to be more focused on the worship style so I need to feel comfortable and I prefer a more reverent style. I also like to have a wide spread of ages. As a 20 year old, I'm really not into contemporary churches geared towards us younger generation. To me personally, theology is very important and on principle I can't attend a church that either doesn't even have its own theology sorted out or has some theological position that I can't reconcile with my own.

These days, I find more and more churches are trying to figure out how to make themselves or their services more relevant to contemporary culture. However, my motto has always been that it is OUR job to make OUR lives relevant to GOD...not the churches job to make God relevant to our lives.

 

[melon]

Well, I think the services are often the hardest part.

Personally, I'd love to forego the services altogether and break into smaller study groups. Kind of more like the relationship between a rabbi and his students common during Jesus' time.

Melon

 

[anitram]

Well, I think the services are often the hardest part.

It's what keeps me from church alltogether. I don't have the attention span to sit there for an hour and follow along. I had the same problem in lectures at school as well.

 

[Pearl]

My ideal church would focus on spirituality rather than politics or being obsessed with sin. It wouldn't make anyone feel like an outsider.

It would also incorporate the whole history of Christianity, including the first 300 - 500 years. Those years seem to be forgotten by all denominations, except when mentioning the Romans presecuting Christians and when Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. Other than that, every church ignores that period and acts like Christian history only goes back a few hundred years. I think the early years of Christianity were a good time for theology, spirituality and even mysticism, something that is really missing from Christianity today. I don't know, I just think an ideal church should teach the whole history of Christianity to its parishoners, so they would also know about the religion they are inheriting.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It's been ages since I've gone to a church.

But if melon built one, I'd happily travel there. You pretty much took the words out of my mouth with your post, melon...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd want in a church .

Also, to BVS's post...I'll agree with that as well.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

Personally, I prefer a more traditional worship style and a focus on the church as a community rather than so much focus on the actual church services. Of course, going for the first few times, you don't really know the people so you're going to be more focused on the worship style so I need to feel comfortable and I prefer a more reverent style. I also like to have a wide spread of ages. As a 20 year old, I'm really not into contemporary churches geared towards us younger generation. To me personally, theology is very important and on principle I can't attend a church that either doesn't even have its own theology sorted out or has some theological position that I can't reconcile with my own.

These days, I find more and more churches are trying to figure out how to make themselves or their services more relevant to contemporary culture. However, my motto has always been that it is OUR job to make OUR lives relevant to GOD...not the churches job to make God relevant to our lives.

Like anything, understanding the traditional service must be taught. It really doesn't take much, but for the person who has had no exposure to church, a traditional service may be deemed "boring".

But everything has meaning and the richness of the services often are missed.

 

[Landslide]

The one thing I look for in a Church happens to be the one thing that's the hardest to find in most...

God.

I hate to be the only one that goes against the grain of this popular post. (... no I don't... Not really. It gives me a chance to stroke my ego in the name of... witnessing, I guess. Who am I kidding??)
I mean, I know exactly where you come from. I used to live there. For me, it was a very lonely and bitter place.
"Most all churches suck. Most all church-goers are hypocritical holy-than-thous (Have I now become one of them!?). It's all about money. Because it is all not perfect and welcoming, to hell with it all... I throw it ALL away."

I don't know if it takes going through the "meat-grinder" of life, like I have, to come to some terms about God, religion, worship, and "me as a sinner" like my brother and sister.
Most folks don't like people like me. It's mostly the same folks that hate that some convicted criminals in prisons turn their lives over to Christ and so they believe to be assured an everlasting life with Him.
"Sure... Now you go there! huh!!"

Anyway, at some point in my own "lil' prison cell", I realized that church is NOT full of saints, but actually full of sinners, like me.
And while I may feel that some churches don't follow God as I would, can I honestly say that God is not there. Who am I to say that? Is God not everywhere? Is He not only in the darkest most horridly sinful places on this earth as well as in the heart of a joyful child at play?

"Where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst of them".

If at least two or three truly honest and contrite broken people are attending a ridiculously lavish Vatican Mass, or a Creflo Dollar service, or a non-denominational worship gathering at a rented Rec Center, is God not there in their hearts despite what one may see as a total lack of God all around them?

"Seek and you shall find..."

Perhaps the first place I can look for in a church to find God is my very own heart,... then in the heart of the guy sitting next to me who I just assume is a self-righteous jerk.

I know that 10 years ago if someone would've told me this, or posted this, I would have told them to kiss my *ss.

You can too, I guess... But don't expect me to comply.


Geez, I think I should change my name to "Acrobat" (but I know its taken) or perhaps "BigFatEgoFix"
I'm not sure this posting stuff is good for anything but my ego... which I'm supposed to be starting a landslide in..

Anyway,
Peace.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Personally, I prefer a more traditional worship style and a focus on the church as a community rather than so much focus on the actual church services. Of course, going for the first few times, you don't really know the people so you're going to be more focused on the worship style so I need to feel comfortable and I prefer a more reverent style. I also like to have a wide spread of ages. As a 20 year old, I'm really not into contemporary churches geared towards us younger generation. To me personally, theology is very important and on principle I can't attend a church that either doesn't even have its own theology sorted out or has some theological position that I can't reconcile with my own.

These days, I find more and more churches are trying to figure out how to make themselves or their services more relevant to contemporary culture. However, my motto has always been that it is OUR job to make OUR lives relevant to GOD...not the churches job to make God relevant to our lives.

You would not believe how much I agree with you.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Anyway, at some point in my own "lil' prison cell", I realized that church is NOT full of saints, but actually full of sinners, like me.

Well, actually, Paul would refer to you as a "saint".