What is sin?

[maycocksean]

I've been thinking about posting this thread for a few weeks now, and some of the recent comments in the "Christianity/Jamie Bakker thread" made think it was time.

The word "Sin" has become a really loaded word in our society today. . .referring to anyone as a "sinner" these days is tantamount to the worst kind of insult. I personally think that is because the word "sin" is misused a lot, ESPECIALLY by Christians. I'm not even sure most of us know what it means anymore.

Merriam Webster's defines sin as:

1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

But even this definition is insufficient, I think. Certainly the way many of us use the word sin is not reflected by the above definition.

At any rate, I'd like to ask FYM posters to respond with their own definition of sin. This is open to everybody including people who don't believe in God or even sin at all. I'd want to know what it is that you don't believe in.

I have my own ideas but I'd like to see what other people have to say first.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I believe in karma and reincarnation and define "sin" as karma. We are born "with karma," rather than "in sin."

 

[Diemen]

To me the key to sin is that involves a choice. Do not kill, do not steal, do not take the Lord's name in vain - these are all choices to be made. If there is no choice to be made, and it is rather simply a core part of who you are (eg brown-eyed, brown haired, heterosexual), then it is not a sin. It is not who you are, it is the actions you take that make sin.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The fun stuff.

 

[U2isthebest]

I have to echo Diemen in the sense that I believe sin has to do with the choices we make that are contrary to what God tells us both through The Bible and through what He speaks to each of us personally. However, I look very differently at many Old Testament sins and New Testament sins. For example, we're told in the Old Testament that eating any kind of shellfish is wrong. My dad is a Believer, and he ate lobster when we were at dinner a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure he's not doomed to hell. When Jesus died he fulfilled the law. What does that mean? It means that we can't. Jesus made it perfectly clear to all the Pharisees, who really represent those of us who are Christians, that since we can't possibly obey or measure up to all the standards of God's Law; His death and resurrection would accomplish it once and for all. I believe those actions did that. I've entered into a relationship with Jesus based on grace. I don't have to follow those rules to be holy anymore. I'm holy simply because I accepted what Jesus did for me. I don't have to hold onto a certain theology or belief system. When Jesus talked about sin, he directed it to the religious leaders interestingly. The sins he talked about were simply believing in a God other than him, judging others, walking in unforgiveness, treating the poor/oppressed/abused like shit (obviously paraphrased) etc. He said the entire law could be summed up by loving God with all our hearts, souls, and minds, and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Obviously all the laws of the OT aren't completely made void, but as long as I have a relationship with Jesus, that doesn't matter. To me then, sin is simply going against what Jesus taught. He didn't teach me what stance I should have on gay marriage, abortion, etc.. He didn't tell me what I have to believe in terms of creationism vs. theistic evolution or any other matter of controversy. He told me to love God and love people. If I don't do that, I'm in sin. That's it and that's all.

 

[deep]

A very good question,
maycocksean.

As someone that is doing missionary work I think you have to live with the concept.


I have given a lot of thought to sin.

I reject the concept completely.
I think it is one of the most abused terms that is in existance. I think it should cease to be.
I believe it is a human construct to give the creators authority and control over anyone they can get to accept the concept.

 

[shart1780]

Oh man I remember I made a thread like this around a year ago (I think it was called "Do you believe in sin?" or something) and the discussion went on a long, long time. I wrote a short essay on it a while back, but I doubt I'll be able to track it down. I might type up the main points later.

Anyways, I certainly believe there is such a thing as sin, and I believe it's when you wilfully go against God's teachings from the Bible. Not a popular view around here.

 

[BVS]

Not a popular view around here.

No idea what this means, I doubt you even do...


Sin is any choice you make that separates you from God. Killing someone or judging someone would obviously be a serparation from God. Loving someone would not...

 

[yolland]

I don't have to follow those rules to be holy anymore. I'm holy simply because I accepted what Jesus did for me.

What, in your view, is the reason for being holy? Why aspire to it?

 

[shart1780]

No idea what this means, I doubt you even do...


Sin is any choice you make that separates you from God. Killing someone or judging someone would obviously be a serparation from God. Loving someone would not...

I mean that believing the Bible is the one true source for deciding what is and what's not sin is an unpoplar opinion.

And I also don't believe any of us are holy. That's the reason we need a relationship with Jesus, because we'll never measure up. It's all about grace, babies!

 

[deep]

A. Tom Cruise, "We are all children of Xenu. "
B. Yusef Islam, "We are all one awakening from Allah's love, mercy and judgement."
C. Random FYM poster, "We are all born sinners."
D. deep, "We are all born basically good and decent people."


People can believe whatever they want or have been conditioned to believe.

Why not just go with the obvious?

 

[deep]

And I also don't believe any of us are holy.

If you are going to make me choose.

I believe people are more "holy" than "sinful".

You can eat your own poison
I not having any of it.

 

[LemonMelon]

Anyways, I certainly believe there is such a thing as sin, and I believe it's when you wilfully go against God's teachings from the Bible. Not a popular view around here.

Yup. Jesus said to follow two commandments:

1. Love your God.

2. Love your neighbor.

You follow these, and it's all good. The trick, however, is to figure out what that actually entails. Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, and, judging from the times he actually brought up certain common laws of the day (laws concerning divorce, murder, lust, etc...) he didn't make them void, but actually made them more challenging to follow (do not even look at someone in lust, do not be angry towards your brother) this tells me that "love thy neighbor" is pretty damn broad, and almost impossible to do perfectly. However, we are obliged to take it on.

Just a minute ago, it was asked "why aspire to holiness?" The answer is to get to know our maker better. As BVS said, sin separates us from God, so, logically, holiness brings us closer to him. If you don't believe in God, then you shouldn't care about all that, but it's for the good of all mankind if you did try to love your neighbor anyway. It's a practical commandment.

 

[shart1780]

If you are going to make me choose.

I believe people are more "holy" than "sinful".

You can eat your own poison
I not having any of it.

Why do you believe that? Just because I don't think humans inherently are pious and spiritually pure doesn't mean I look at everyone I see as a dirty worm.

You make it sound like I'm disgusted with myself and human beings in general. Why is it a poisonous idea to believe that us as human beings don't inherently deserving to enter God's presence? From my own experiences I can say I'm definitely not deserving of that, because I've done things I've been pretty disgusted with. I'm amazed God puts up with so much ugliness.

 

[Sherry Darling]

I really like Diemen's post.

I'd add also that, while I don't have any neat and concise definition, I am really influenced by thinkers like Kant and Buber. So sin would bascially relate to treating others as objects, not subjects.

 

[shart1780]

To me the key to sin is that involves a choice. Do not kill, do not steal, do not take the Lord's name in vain - these are all choices to be made. If there is no choice to be made, and it is rather simply a core part of who you are (eg brown-eyed, brown haired, heterosexual), then it is not a sin. It is not who you are, it is the actions you take that make sin.

Another question that needs to be asked (I guess the the thread is about that, heh heh) is what is what choices constitute sin?

 

[deep]

Why do you believe that? Just because I don't think humans inherently are pious and spiritually pure doesn't mean I look at everyone I see as a dirty worm.

It is only a question of how you are looking at them.

If you are looking up on people they are holy.

If you are looking down on them they are 'sinners' (dirty worms).


and then we can:
cut their heads off
feel patriotic as we watch "smart bombs" incinerate evil doers (and children)
drive planes into buildings
imprison and torture


it is very important that the concept of "sin" remains in tact

 

[Vincent Vega]

I mean that believing the Bible is the one true source for deciding what is and what's not sin is an unpoplar opinion.

And I also don't believe any of us are holy. That's the reason we need a relationship with Jesus, because we'll never measure up. It's all about grace, babies!

People have fought for being able to use their own minds without getting killed or at least punished.
Today, many people don't want a book to dictate what is right and what is wrong anymore.

I've thought about the term sin for a while now.
I haven't heard it in a long time, if ever, used in a serious way here in Germany. Sünde.
Sex is sin, but not really in the religious meaning. More as a synonym for taboo.

If someone does something criminal or immoral I wouldn't refer to it as a sin. I don't know anyone who would do, around here.

But that might rather be due to differences in language and how it gets contextualised there. I'm not sure.
It's new to me that the definition of sin is separation from God. I only knew it as the things Christian deem as inappropiate or wrong.

 

[shart1780]

It is only a question of how you are looking at them.

If you are looking up on people they are holy.

If you are looking down on them they are 'sinners' (dirty worms).


and then we can:
cut their heads off
feel patriotic as we watch "smart bombs" incinerate evil doers (and children)
drive planes into buildings
imprison and torture


it is very important that the concept of "sin" remains in tact

Well, I do look up to plenty of people, but I still wouldn't consider them holy because of that. To me being holy is more of a spiritual supernatural thing that only God has achieved. I think all humans are equally important, but I wouldn't consider any of us (inluding the most devout followers of Christ, i.e. the apostles) as holy.

 

[shart1780]

People have fought for being able to use their own minds without getting killed or at least punished.
Today, many people don't want a book to dictate what is right and what is wrong anymore.

I've thought about the term sin for a while now.
I haven't heard it in a long time, if ever, used in a serious way here in Germany. Sünde.
Sex is sin, but not really in the religious meaning. More as a synonym for taboo.

If someone does something criminal or immoral I wouldn't refer to it as a sin. I don't know anyone who would do, around here.

But that might rather be due to differences in language and how it gets contextualised there. I'm not sure.
It's new to me that the definition of sin is separation from God. I only knew it as the things Christian deem as inappropiate or wrong.

Well, what exactly does immorality mean to you? I mean, when someone does something "bad" what are the consequences? Also, who decides what's right and wrong?

 

[deep]

I have given a lot of thought to sin.

I reject the concept completely.
I think it is one of the most abused terms that is in existance. I think it should cease to be.
I believe it is a human construct to give the creators authority and control over anyone they can get to accept the concept.

Why is it a poisonous idea to believe that us as human beings don't inherently deserving to enter God's presence? From my own experiences I can say I'm definitely not deserving of that, because I've done things I've been pretty disgusted with. I'm amazed God puts up with so much ugliness.

You don't think you are controlled by the concept of sin?


Look at the shame and self- disgust you express.


Sometimes I do things I thing are wrong, that injure other people.

I take responsibility for them and apologise. I really do a lot less of them since I no longer care or think about "God and the afterlife." My actions have immediate consequences and are not part of some much bigger picture with an imaginary 3rd person there.

My dealings are more honest and direct. I don't get any "golden pass".

I find I am much more considerate of people dealing with them in the here and now on terms that exist in real time.

Also, if I do make a mistake, I don't shame myself and add it to some big score card, and see how it all adds up.

I just make better choices and I find I am making a lot less offenses to others and myself.

 

[LemonMelon]

Well, I do look up to plenty of people, but I still wouldn't consider them holy because of that. To me being holy is more of a spiritual supernatural thing that only God has achieved. I think all humans are equally important, but I wouldn't consider any of us (inluding the most devout followers of Christ, i.e. the apostles) as holy.

Same here...

Mankind isn't, in and of himself, holy. Leave a human being to his own devices with no authority or law and see what happens.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Well, what exactly does immorality mean to you? I mean, when someone does something "bad" what are the consequences? Also, who decides what's right and wrong?

Greed, killing for pleasure or money or whatever, exploiting others and so on is immoral. Morality is not exclusive to religious people. I don't see it as a religious term. It's a highly philosophical term, though I'm not much into philosophy either.

Society defines what is right and what is wrong. But not solely. The law, developed over centuries and revisted over and over again provides for a basis we can use to define what is right or wrong, moral or immoral. Not one person, and never one book.

Well, what are the consequences for criminal behaviour. Either he gets fined, or goes to jail. Some behaviour is immoral yet not criminal. You then have to decide whether you are going to forgive that person or try to get out of his way. Just don't get criminal yourself, that would be stupid and immoral either.

 

[shart1780]

You don't think you are controlled by the concept of sin?


Look at the shame and self- disgust you express.


Sometimes I do things I thing are wrong, that injure other people.

I take responsibility for them and apologise. I really do a lot less of them since I no longer care or think about "God and the afterlife." My actions have immediate consequences and are not part of some much bigger picture with an imaginary 3rd person there.

My dealings are more honest and direct. I don't get any "golden pass".

I find I am much more considerate of people dealing with them in the here and now on terms that exist in real time.

Also, if I do make a mistake, I don't shame myself and add it to some big score card, and see how it all adds up.

I just make better choices and I find I am making a lot less offenses to others and myself.

When did I say I'm disgusted with myself? I said I've done some disgusting things. However, because I'm able to repent for them the burden is taken off of me. I've also done things that hurt others and when I personally make it right with them I feel better because I care about others as well. It's not about earning marls on a score card.

See, this is the thing that kind of gets on my nerves, and I hear a lot. When I talk to people about these things they very often talk like you are. That I treat right and wrong as like positive and negative points that will go on my eternal life score card. That I have no TRUE emotional feelings towards others, and that how others feel around me really isn't that important. I love the company of others, whether they're Christians or not, and I care a lot about how people feel. I do have the capacity, you know. You're iplying that the only reason I give a crap for others' feelings is so I can get to Heaven. No. Do you think Jesus would respect that? Of course not. I treat others well because I like to see them happy. The fact that God smiles on that is GREAT, but it's not the reason I do it. I'm not a heartless bastard who uses people as tokens to get a free ride into Heaven.

I find it disturbing to see what you rally think of people like me. You make our exisistences sound hollow.

 

[Liesje]

For me, sin = the absence of good (thought, intent, action...).

 

[shart1780]

Greed, killing for pleasure or money or whatever, exploiting others and so on is immoral. Morality is not exclusive to religious people. I don't see it as a religious term. It's a highly philosophical term, though I'm not much into philosophy either.

Society defines what is right and what is wrong. But not solely. The law, developed over centuries and revisted over and over again provides for a basis we can use to define what is right or wrong, moral or immoral. Not one person, and never one book.

Well, what are the consequences for criminal behaviour. Either he gets fined, or goes to jail. Some behaviour is immoral yet not criminal. You then have to decide whether you are going to forgive that person or try to get out of his way. Just don't get criminal yourself, that would be stupid and immoral either.

I've never understood how this view could be logically defended.

If there is no God, and if we are truly sophisticated animals with no true soul, then what does right and wrong really matter at all? It wouldn't.

Let's say The human race evolved from soulless creatures and we're still soulless creatures that will just dissolve into the dust when we die like every other animal. How is there truly any wrong at all? If there is no universal right or wrong we are simply masses of flesh bumping into eachother on a tiny ball in space.

If we are fleshy masses with no real purpose (except maybe the percieve purpose society makes up for us), why is it wrong to kill? All it would be is the act of causing another mass of flesh to cease to live. Why is that "wrong"? Why is it not wrong for my cat to kill a mouse for sport?

And if morals are decided by society, then who's to say the ancient Mayan cultures who practiced savage human sacrifice were morally wrong? In there minds that was perfectly acceptable because society said so. Something can't be wrong in one part of the world and right in another.

If right and wrong are only dictated by society than I'd say that morals are a pretty stupid and petty thing.

 

[U2isthebest]

What, in your view, is the reason for being holy? Why aspire to it?

Personally, I believe I don't aspire to be holy. I try to make choices that line up with what I think God wants me to be. That has nothing to do with holiness. I'm called holy by God because I chose to accept what Jesus did for me not because of any action on my part.

 

[maycocksean]

A very good question,
maycocksean.

As someone that is doing missionary work I think you have to live with the concept.


I have given a lot of thought to sin.

I reject the concept completely.
I think it is one of the most abused terms that is in existance. I think it should cease to be.
I believe it is a human construct to give the creators authority and control over anyone they can get to accept the concept.

Thanks everyone for your responses so far. It's been really interesting. Deep, I wanted address your response in particular. . .

You reject the concept of sin. Fair enough. But could you define the concept you are rejecting? Maybe you feel already did so in your subsequent dialogue with shart1780 but I feel like I missed it. If you don't mind. . .

 

[maycocksean]

Oh man I remember I made a thread like this around a year ago (I think it was called "Do you believe in sin?" or something) and the discussion went on a long, long time. I wrote a short essay on it a while back, but I doubt I'll be able to track it down. I might type up the main points later.

Oh snap. I do remember that thread. . .gosh, I hope it wasn't me that started it. I'll feel kind of foolish!

 

[shart1780]

Why foolish?