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#1 | |
War Child
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
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Since the subject of "fascism" seems to make an appearance here about a dozen times a year, I figured it was time to ask the question of what "fascism" even refers to anymore.
__________________So here's where I'm going to start: http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As.../english/efasc Quote:
Thoughts? |
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#2 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Kony Island Baby
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Hmmm.
__________________Well of course the word gets bandied about a lot but that does not alter the fact that it has an inherent, albeit slippery, meaning. Of course Nazi Germany, Franco's Spain, Portugal, Fascist Italy etc were not wholly alike... but they had similiarities all the same. A few things that would come to mind, in my view: 1. A one-party state arrangement goes without saying. But it's not just that, it's also the politicisation of everyday life, the subsuming of general community life into various wings of an overarching movement supporting the ruling regime. So apartheid South Africa was undoubtedly reactionary but not necessarily an expression of 'fascism'. Yes, I realise that this would put Soviet Russia in the fascist camp. I'm not sure that would be inappropriate, whatever they called themselves. 2. Certainly war is not an essential precondition, it would be silly to figure that all fascist movements are about ruling the world... they are an expression of unchecked discontent in their host community. I think that an atmosphere of life as permanent struggle and a glorification of action over thought, are key features of pretty much any fascist organisation I've ever read about. 4. Another feature I'd tend to think worth mentioning is the tendency to see the nation, the state and its leader as one and the same... so to oppose the leader is to oppose everything. This isn't so different from your absolutist kingdoms of medieval times, and I'm not so sure that fascism isn't just a modern expression of the medieval instinct (aided and abetted by modern means of communication and opinion manipulation). |
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#3 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS Join Date: Aug 2005
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Well I admit that I ignorantly use "fascist" as a replacement for asshole. It seems to offend a lot less bystanders than the latter. This was very educational though. Perhaps I should be more discriminatory in using the term.
Honestly though, perhaps because of where I am, but I hardly hear it used at all. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in town that says it. |
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#4 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Jan 2004
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I thought fascist was used either to describe anti-socialists or the specific political and importantly economic system of the authoritarian movements in Italy, Germany and Spain.
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#5 |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I studied History at Uni and my speciality was the Holocaust and Nazi Germany. So that's what always springs to mind when I hear the word fascist. To me it describes an extreme right-wing situation or beliefs, be it leader, party, etc.
Dunno if I explained that well, ah well it's late. |
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#6 |
ONE
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What makes it right wing? Cutting social spending and lowering taxes? Populism (which can't really be considered diagnostic of the right)?
The term right wing is bandied about a lot; it is distinct from fascist, conservative, objectivist, libertarian etc. |
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#7 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Dec 2001
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For once I agree with a-wanderer. Like I said in my earlier post, fascism is a distinct phenomenon... I see it as more of a mass psychosis than an ideology... in fact I'd say that it would be quite possible for a mass fascist movement to, at least on the surface, espouse a variety of 'ideals', which could vary greatly depending on the local environment in a given country.
It's about subsuming thought to action, individuality to a group myth, and the aforementioned intrusion of political thinking into every corner of life. I say I think it's a 'psychosis' because most of the fascist movements seem to me to have been fairly revenge-driven, or driven by the desire to whip large numbers into a 'movement' mentality... excitement over dull routine. And this of course, could apply to movements of the left or the right. I'd tend to pick the right more often if for no other reason than the historical mythical appeal of nation and leader/king/crown to this sort of thinking. There are many dictatorships in the world and some of them could go on seemingly forever (as many are based on nothing in particular, they are the equivalent of a country being run as a large corporation), but the fascist movements tend to burn out on their own rage, imo. I'm not sure Imperial Japan was fascist, anyhow. Feudal is the word I'd use. ...which reminds me of the other thing that's been bugging me about all this. 'Left' and 'right' are almost beside the point in this context, there's also the question of 'modern' vs 'postmodern' (or maybe, just maybe 'pre-modern'). I think there's a primal instinct at work in fascism, beyond the fairly recent ideas we tend to have about what constitutes 'ideology'. |
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#8 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Jan 2004
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Fascism emerged from a world of modernism but the movements rallied against the products of modernism, at least culturally. That anti-modern mentality of rejecting social progress (be it pluralism, sexual liberty or political dissidents), romanticising the past (agrarian lifestyles, humble proletariat etc.), preaching historicism and destiny while at the same time using the technology that modernism provided (mass industrial projects, Panzers).
The role of state control when these groups come to power cannot be emphasised enough. The similarities between authoritarian states is because of control be it to achieve socialist paradise, an ethnically pure nation or a state subservent to God and his clerical class. Are fascists, fascists when they don't have a state apparatus to carry out their will? |
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#9 |
Refugee
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Devil BUSH ist fascism
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#10 | |
War Child
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Quote:
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#11 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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Agreed with some of the above. I guess, to put it as briefly as possible, a fascist state is a dictatorship whose authority is based on fear, where political/religious/artistic/expressive freedom is not permitted. It (fascism) isn't a political ideology or philosophy; in other words none of us can be "fascists" unless we rule a country in our spare time.
Do people think it's worth drawing a distinction between a fascist state ruled by a single dictator (Hitler, Mussolini for example) vs. a state like the USSR that had a ruling party but a succession of physical heads of state? Agreed with A_Wanderer re: right, conservative, libertarian etc. I think people tend to lump together people whose political views they oppose. For example, folks on the "right" (see, I just did it, but bear with me) often use "liberal" to describe anyone they perceive to be on the "left", or at least to THEIR left...but while I'm certainly pretty far to the left I'd NEVER call myself a liberal. I imagine a libertarian, for example, wouldn't describe himself as a "conservative", though someone on the left might call him one. |
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#12 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Like I said in my earlier post, because of what I studied at Uni that's just what happens to spring to mind when I hear the word fascist. It just happens to be an extreme right wing state. Fascism could be leftor right wing, I should've made that clearer in my earlier post ![]() |
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#13 |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: May 2002
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When I use the word "fascist", I'm referring to extreme right-wing politics. I recently accused one of the Christian Right groups of being fascist rather than Christian in one of my posts. Maybe this is not the most accurate use of that word. Being a history major maybe I should be a little more careful about my choice of words. Properly speaking, the word came from Mussolini's Italy and can be applied to Nazi Germany and Francoist Spain.
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#14 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Dec 2001
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There was a British Union of Fascists too, led by one of the leading political lights of his day (albeit a fool)... the 1930s really was the age of dictators, a very troubled time for obvious reasons, and as far as I can tell, prior to the start of the European war, it (the fascist route) was widely viewed in a positive light.
__________________Even the US had its own ranting demagogue in Father Coughlan (and in more polite company, Charles Lindbergh). |
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