What are your thoughts on school vouchers?

[martha]

I think what I like most about charter schools is their ability to fire inept teachers. All but impossible in public schools is it not?

Depends on the district. Depends on who defines inept.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

No doubt. The same can be said of any enterprise I suppose. If they aren't fulfilling the intentions of their charter then they should be closed.
Besides providing choice, I think what I like most about charter schools is their ability to fire inept teachers. All but impossible in public schools is it not?

This talk of inept teachers and inept public schools and accountability makes me wonder when someone is going to hold inept parents accountable for their inept children. Why must schools take all the blame all the time?

 

[U2Man]

because they're full of inept, incompotent teachers

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

because they're full of inept, incompotent teachers

tell me about it. I mean, you're the poster child for reform. If schools keep turning out kids like you. . .

 

[CTU2fan]

Against. In fact, I'd go the other way & ban home schooling & private schools. I bet if somebody forced Biff & Buffy to go to public school their daddy the senator would be more open to funding schools adequately.

All vouchers will do is increase educational disparity.

 

[Liesje]

Against. In fact, I'd go the other way & ban home schooling & private schools.

Besides the fact that would never happen since it's unconstitutional, what is your reasoning behind this (especially homeschooling)?

 

[AEON]

In the end - it is not about money. Even a one room farm school house can produce an Abraham Lincoln.

This is about what is being taught. And this where most schools get an "F."

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

This is about what is being taught. And this where most schools get an "F."

Can you elaborate?

 

[martha]

Can you elaborate?

It's not the Bible.

 

[martha]

Against. In fact, I'd go the other way & ban home schooling & private schools. I bet if somebody forced Biff & Buffy to go to public school their daddy the senator would be more open to funding schools adequately.

All vouchers will do is increase educational disparity.

 

[yolland]

Not directly voucher-related, but close...

Schools Slow in Closing Gaps Between Races

By SAM DILLON
New York Times, Nov 20, 2006

When President Bush signed his sweeping education law a year into his presidency, it set 2014 as the deadline by which schools were to close the test-score gaps between minority and white students that have persisted since standardized testing began. Now, as Congress prepares to consider reauthorizing the law next year, researchers and a half-dozen recent studies, including three issued last week, are reporting little progress toward that goal. Slight gains have been seen for some grade levels.

Despite concerted efforts by educators, the test-score gaps are so large that, on average, African-American and Hispanic students in high school can read and do arithmetic at only the average level of whites in junior high school. “The gaps between African-Americans and whites are showing very few signs of closing,” Michael T. Nettles, a senior vice president at the Educational Testing Service, said in a paper he presented recently at Columbia University. One ethnic minority, Asians, generally fares as well as or better than whites.

Examining results from reading and math tests administered to 500,000 students in 24 states in the fall of 2004 and the spring of 2005, the study found: “For each score level at each grade in each subject, minority students grew less than European-Americans, and students from poor schools grew less than those from wealthier ones.” Minority and poor students also lost more academic ground each summer, the study said.

The 2005 National Assessment of Educational Progress, a battery of reading and math tests administered to thousands of students in every state, showed some rising scores for all ethnic groups, and the black-white score gap narrowed in a statistically significant way for fourth-grade math. But on fourth-grade reading, and on eighth-grade reading and math, the black-white and Hispanic-white gaps were statistically unchanged from the early 1990s. Over the past three decades, the gaps narrowed steadily from the 1970s through the late 1980s but then leveled out through 1999. Since then, some have narrowed again, but at a rate that would allow them to persist for decades.
....................................................
The findings pose a challenge not only for Mr. Bush but also for the Democratic lawmakers who joined him in negotiating the original law, known as No Child Left Behind, and who will control education policy in Congress next year. Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and Representative George Miller of California, who are expected to be the chairmen of the Senate and House education committees, will promote giving more resources to schools and researching strategies to improve minority performance, according to aides.

Experts have suggested many possible changes, including improving the law’s mechanisms for ensuring that teachers in poor schools are experienced and knowledgeable, and extending early-childhood education to more students. Since scholars have documented that minority children enter kindergarten with weaker reading skills than white children, some experts advocate increased public financing for early education programs. No Child Left Behind provides money for tutoring in schools where students are not succeeding, but critics say it does not provide sufficient financing to help states and districts turn the schools themselves around. Several of the new reports urged better provisions to ensure that poor and mostly minority schools have quality teachers, to reward teachers who help struggling students improve, and to keep good teachers from leaving city schools for higher-paying suburban ones. “If I’m in a bad school and make serious progress, I need a reward,” Dr. Nettles said. “If you perform on Wall Street, you get a bonus.”

But the news is not all bad. Individual schools in some states have made progress in narrowing the gaps between black and white, Hispanic and white, and the poor and more affluent, according to a Standard & Poor’s unit that analyzes school performance. The unit credited Morgan County Elementary School in Madison, Ga., with significantly raising the scores of black fourth and fifth graders. The principal, Jean Triplett, attributed that success in part to after-school tutoring by volunteers in black churches.

Edwin E. Weeks Elementary School in Syracuse was singled out for narrowing the gap between black and white students. Dare Dutter, the principal, credited a prekindergarten program and a school health clinic that helped keep poor students from missing class.

One of the exceptions, the unit said, is Hoover Middle School in Lakewood, Calif., a community in Los Angeles County where the aircraft manufacturing industry has been hit by job losses. The school has raised Hispanic scores so much that in the spring of 2005 Hispanic students outperformed whites, said the principal, Michael L. Troyer. He said the progress resulted from focused instruction, frequent diagnostic testing and several tutoring programs. “Some of it’s after school, teachers do it at lunch, and we have people who tutor in the morning before school, too,” Mr. Troyer said.

So based on this article, there seem to be at least three major strategies being tossed around to address the gap:

1) Expanding early education/pre-kindergarten programs.
2) Expanding tutoring programs.
3) Providing extra incentives to keep particularly experienced and successful (i.e., with struggling students) teachers in poorer schools.

I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of some of our teachers in here on these proposals (and any other ideas that are out there, including vouchers)...are these good steps towards mitigating some of the differences in parental support you keep mentioning? Also, how big of a problem is good teachers leaving struggling schools for better-off suburban ones? That wasn't something I'd thought about before, although it does make sense.

 

[martha]

3) Providing extra incentives to keep particularly experienced and successful (i.e., with struggling students) teachers in poorer schools.

Here's a question: Why would any experienced teacher want to stay in a school where no matter what she does, she gets blamed for her students' poor performance?

Answer that, and you can solve that problem.

 

[CTU2fan]

Besides the fact that would never happen since it's unconstitutional, what is your reasoning behind this (especially homeschooling)?

Because I like level playing fields. If every child went to public school then you eliminate an advantage the rich kids have. I also don't think many of the people in charge much care if our public schools suffer, since their kids don't go to them. If I'm rich & my kids go to prep school, I probably like the fact that most other kids are stuck in public schools that are perceived to be inferior; my kid has an advantage when applying to college, and that extends to the job market. Now if prep school isn't an option & my kid HAS to go to public school, I have some added incentive to see that the public schools are better funded/less crowded etc.

Homeschooling is another story...I just think kids that miss out on the school "experience" by being schooled at home are missing out. Also if you banned private schools but allowed homeschooling that's a pretty big loophole people could use...creating a private school under the guise of homeschooling.

And yes I know this is unconstitutional, and even if it weren't would never happen...just saying what I'd do.

 

[speedracer]

This talk of inept teachers and inept public schools and accountability makes me wonder when someone is going to hold inept parents accountable for their inept children. Why must schools take all the blame all the time?

No kidding.

(1) If parents don't instill in their kids a healthy respect for learning and discipline (or worse, teach their kids to disrepect it), the teachers' jobs become a lot harder;

(2) Maybe part of the reason teachers let stoopid kids pass their classes and move up grades is because of the bitching-out they're going to get from the parents if they decide otherwise.

 

[AEON]

No kidding.

(1) If parents don't instill in their kids a healthy respect for learning and discipline (or worse, teach their kids to disrepect it), the teachers' jobs become a lot harder;

(2) Maybe part of the reason teachers let stoopid kids pass their classes and move up grades is because of the bitching-out they're going to get from the parents if they decide otherwise.

I think we all agree there are some pretty crappy parents out there. I admit, mine were crappy. But along the way - there were several AMAZING teachers that convinced me I could make something of my life. And when I got to college - I met the most amazing, intelligent Jewish professor teaching Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and he helped change my eternal destiny.

If kids have both a crappy home and a crappy school - are they simply destined for failure?

 

[martha]

If kids have both a crappy home and a crappy school - are they simply destined for failure?

Yeah, some are.

And some aren't.

But a crappy home has much more influence in a child's life than a crappy school.

 

[AEON]

Yeah, some are.

And some aren't.

But a crappy home has much more influence in a child's life than a crappy school.

True. But a good, inspiring teacher can at least offer a ray of hope.

 

[martha]

True. But a good, inspiring teacher can at least offer a ray of hope.

I try.

 

[deep]

I think we all agree there are some pretty crappy parents out there. I admit, mine were crappy. But along the way - there were several AMAZING teachers that convinced me I could make something of my life.

I presume you went to public schools?

I went to mediocre public schools myself.

My question,
if your parents had the voucher option, do you believe you would have received a better education?

 

[martha]

Don't forget where all the voucher money comes from: the public school budget.

Just keep that in mind before you start giving away my funding.

 

[deep]

i suppose

if we offered vouchers in Michigan

our tax dollars could set up a few madrasahs' in the detroit area

 

[speedracer]

Don't forget where all the voucher money comes from: the public school budget.

Just keep that in mind before you start giving away my funding.

I am pretty sure that any effort to level out the quality of our K-12 education is going to involve richer people losing money in some way or other. I can't buy this argument as an essential argument against vouchers.

 

[speedracer]

i suppose

if we offered vouchers in Michigan

our tax dollars could set up a few madrasahs' in the detroit area

I suppose they could, if the madrasahs were sponsored by a university or a board of education.

 

[martha]

I am pretty sure that any effort to level out the quality of our K-12 education is going to involve richer people losing money in some way or other. I can't buy this argument as an essential argument against vouchers.

Dude, then you have no idea how schools are funded.

 

[speedracer]

Dude, then you have no idea how schools are funded.

Dudette, I am confused by your remark. Are you implying that (1) crappy inner-city schools receive as much funding as high-achieving suburban schools, (2) you have a plan for fixing education in crappy inner-city schools that doesn't somehow involve higher taxes or redistributing funds, or something else?

 

[AEON]

I presume you went to public schools?

I went to mediocre public schools myself.

My question,
if your parents had the voucher option, do you believe you would have received a better education?

Yes. I was able to attend Catholic School High School when I went to live with the Jesuits. If I had been in Catholic grade school - I am certain I would have had a better education.

 

[martha]

Dudette, I am confused by your remark. Are you implying that (1) crappy inner-city schools receive as much funding as high-achieving suburban schools, (2) you have a plan for fixing education in crappy inner-city schools that doesn't somehow involve higher taxes or redistributing funds, or something else?

Dude, schools are (partially) funded per student. This means that when students don't attend school, the schoos loses funds. In my state, absences cause lost funds. The kids who get vouchers, take the per student funding away with them.

As per the inner-city school $ question, schools with high ratios of lower-income students get federal Title 1 money. Your average suburban school doesn't see a dime of Title 1 funds. Hell, we're lucky to get our Title 5 money.

And, where do you think the voucher money will come from? The Funding Fairy? It's all tax dollars, and it's all school budget dollars. No one's going to take highway funds and buy little Johnny a private school educatiuon. Nope, the money comes out of public school classrooms.

You want better inner city schools? Pay the good teachers to stay there, get the parents involved, and then see what happens.

 

[Dreadsox]

I am pretty sure that any effort to level out the quality of our K-12 education is going to involve richer people losing money in some way or other. I can't buy this argument as an essential argument against vouchers.

When you calculate the amount of money taken from the school per child, you may have a different opinion.

 

[speedracer]

You want better inner city schools? Pay the good teachers to stay there, get the parents involved, and then see what happens.

Increasing teacher salaries still involves taking money away from rich(er) people. If crunching the numbers shows that this is a more efficient solution, then great.

 

[Dreadsox]

Increasing teacher salaries still involves taking money away from rich(er) people. If crunching the numbers shows that this is a more efficient solution, then great.

It (vouchers) does not take away from the teacher salary. It does not take any more or less away from the rich.

The salary's are stagnant. They are what they are. The next largest expense in our school budget is utilities.

It comes out of texts, supplies, aids...

And that $10-25,000 that leaves with a voucher hurts the school, not the teacher.