What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

[trevster2k]

Thanks yolland , you're right. We have spent so much time defending our position that we haven't addressed the original question.

 

[A_Wanderer]

But we are more than capable of defending and justifying our position, in the marketplace of ideas it gives us an opportunity to make the plea to reason and to rebuke belief, I want a world where everybodies ideas are scrutinised, criticised and mocked savagely.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Well I am really amazed at the ferocity of some peoples arguments against atheism/agonosticism. I think the question needs to be asked is why so hostile? Why do we threaten them so much?

I don't give a flying f*ck if someone is religious or not. Their views don't affect me or offend me So why does it seem to be so bad the other way round for some people? Do they think that because we flat out refuse to accept their beliefs we someone make them question their own faith? Are they worried what will happen if they didn't have God to "rely on" ?

Also, in your local neighbourhoods, amongst your friends and family, is your atheism tolerated, threatened or not even questioned? For me i think i was most surprised abut the savagery attacks on atheism in this thread, because with my friends and family no one is religious. Out of my 100 or so friends and aquantances, not one is completely religious, a few may believe in God, or go to church at Easter but other then that, nothing. So this board definately does not resemble my surroundings. Is this the same for you or is Australia more lax in religion (which i think we are definately when it comes to state and church, not that we will if the stupid abbott has his way but i digress)

 

[trevster2k]

Regarding a non-believer's place in the world, hmm, I definitely think we are on the fringes of mainstream society. As we have seen in this post, we are continuously challenged by believers as if we need help and there is something wrong with us.

 

[A_Wanderer]

And are we supposed to take all this and run for self-pity, yes a lack of belief can be reconciled to those of faith in any number of ways, and some of those ways are rather patronising and self-serving but at it's core it is still built on the same irrationality.

Being bright should not mean baulking at having thoughts challenged, it should mean dishing it up and taking it.

Heres the puzzler, what of the evil paradox? Why should anybody respect a God who is either powerless or malevolent.

 

[trevster2k]

Well I am really amazed at the ferocity of some peoples arguments against atheism/agonosticism. I think the question needs to be asked is why so hostile? Why do we threaten them so much?

I don't give a flying f*ck if someone is religious or not. Their views don't affect me or offend me So why does it seem to be so bad the other way round for some people? Do they think that because we flat out refuse to accept their beliefs we someone make them question their own faith? Are they worried what will happen if they didn't have God to "rely on" ?

Also, in your local neighbourhoods, amongst your friends and family, is your atheism tolerated, threatened or not even questioned? For me i think i was most surprised abut the savagery attacks on atheism in this thread, because with my friends and family no one is religious. Out of my 100 or so friends and aquantances, not one is completely religious, a few may believe in God, or go to church at Easter but other then that, nothing. So this board definately does not resemble my surroundings. Is this the same for you or is Australia more lax in religion (which i think we are definately when it comes to state and church, not that we will if the stupid abbott has his way but i digress)

Generally, no one challenges me as to why I am a non-theist. As I mentioned before, I have had discussions with people about the topic of God and usually it's fine. They may wonder afterwards what's wrong with me but I have never the encountered such a vehement condemnation of my views like in this thread. And frankly, some people have selective vision as to what they read on this thread.

Canada is less religious then the US too. The US is probably one of the most religious countries in the world. There are pockets of fundamentalists here and there in Western Canada but nothing like the Southern US. Although, our Prime Minister has been mimicing George Bush recently so politically we may be heading in that direction in terms of religion vs the state.

 

[trevster2k]

And are we supposed to take all this and run for self-pity, yes a lack of belief can be reconciled to those of faith in any number of ways, and some of those ways are rather patronising and self-serving but at it's core it is still built on the same irrationality.

Being bright should not mean baulking at having thoughts challenged, it should mean dishing it up and taking it.

Heres the puzzler, what of the evil paradox? Why should anybody respect a God who is either powerless or malevolent.

I don't mind discussing the issue if the questioner is listening. The last 3-4 pages was repetition and no listening to our answers. What is the point? I have no problem defending my views but only if there is an actual respect by the listener. Otherwise, I got better things to do. Plus I don't necessarily think I have to defend anything nor do I feel it necessary to bash theists or their beliefs even though I disagree with them.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Respect is never a given in any debate, it should not be assumed and it should not be extended in all cases.

 

[shart1780]

I have read all of the threads in response to mine, and they've all basically said the same thing, which the exception of A_Wanderer's, which make sense even if I disagree.

I'm sorry, but the "my life matters because I say it matters" argument is completely illogical.

And for the love of God I'm NOT saying the opinions and feelings of atheists don't matter. I'm asking you how you can LOGICALLY justify your opinion on the subject using reason and a well thought out explanation.

I probably shouldn't even bother, as most of you seem to take everything I say as "You're an atheist therefor nothing you think or do matters and you may as well kill yourself".

 

[A_Wanderer]

The argument that our lives matter because we say so is perfectly logical; in a world without higher purpose rational self interest rules, following from this the most important thing to any individual is their life, followed by their freedoms, followed by the personal safety, followed by their property etc. In the sense of outside worth, of saying quantatively that human life has intrinsic value it does not, and unless somebody is hanging onto a vestige of theology then this shouldn't be a problem.

The existential statement of the TV show 'Angel' summed it up rather well "if nothing that we do matters then all that matters is what we do".

 

[shart1780]

The argument that our lives matter because we say so is perfectly logical; in a world without higher purpose rational self interest rules, following from this the most important thing to any individual is their life, followed by their freedoms, followed by the personal safety, followed by their property etc. In the sense of outside worth, of saying quantatively that human life has intrinsic value it does not, and unless somebody is hanging onto a vestige of theology then this shouldn't be a problem.

The existential statement of the TV show 'Angel' summed it up rather well "if nothing that we do matters then all that matters is what we do".

I'm still not seeing yoir point at all. If we're beings that don't matter in a universe with no universal rights or wrongs then how can our actions really matter? Yes, our actions will always have reactions, thus we'll affect things, but I still don't see how they MATTER.

I'm starting to think that we may define the word "matter" differently. If by our actions mattering you mean they have a cause and effect, then yes, of course they matter. When I talk about our actions mattering I'm referring to a meaning that's higher than simply cause and effect. In a univerese with no higher power what is there besides cause and effect?

 

[VintagePunk]

Also, in your local neighbourhoods, amongst your friends and family, is your atheism tolerated, threatened or not even questioned? For me i think i was most surprised abut the savagery attacks on atheism in this thread, because with my friends and family no one is religious. Out of my 100 or so friends and aquantances, not one is completely religious, a few may believe in God, or go to church at Easter but other then that, nothing. So this board definately does not resemble my surroundings. Is this the same for you or is Australia more lax in religion (which i think we are definately when it comes to state and church, not that we will if the stupid abbott has his way but i digress)

In most respects, my beliefs are not an issue with the people I interact with. My family identifies as Christian, but only in the vaguest sense. My older brother and sister were made to go to Sunday School in their childhoods. By the time I came along, my mother opted to spend her Sunday mornings sleeping in, rather than getting up to get me ready to go, lol. As an adult, my brother became born-again, and although we are close, I see a great deal of hipocrasy in his behaviour when attempting to reconcile his recitation of biblical verses, etc., to his actual behaviour, at times. He is a biblical literalist, and we get into some extremely heated debates, but religion (and politics too, actually) aside, it's all good. My sister did return to church services for a time when her children were younger. Although she's a believer, she's more liberal in her beliefs, and I think that she would agree that probably the main purpose that church served for her was the fellowship aspect - she lives in a rural community. After several years, church politics and pettiness entered the picture, around the time that the United Church was splitting, and she stopped attending, and hasn't gone back. The beliefs of my friends are varied. I have several friends that are deeply religious, and we discuss these aspects of ourselves quite a bit, with tolerance and understanding. Many of my other friends are believers, but they're the type who don't really practice, or put much thought into it. I think it's similar to the sports analogy that was used elsewhere in the thread - they believe without question or thought, just because that's how they were raised. Still other friends share beliefs similar to mine.

I've never felt judged or put down because of my beliefs. It's not really something I discuss with people, though, except for those who are closest to me. I've certainly never experienced in real life the complete lack of understanding and tolerance of some that I've come across in this thread.

 

[dazzlingamy]

^ I agree. My argument of what I do matters to me, is logical because *I* see it as logical and therefore thats all that matters.

But side note: Can you LOGICALLY explain that you feel emotions because God makes them real for you? I don't see any logic in that. Your faith is just that YOUR faith. There is nothing in this world suggesting to you there is a God, only what you have been taught and read. You can't say you feel him at thats why you know hes there because I don't feel him and enither does everyone else in the world so therefore that is a subjective answer and can't be used as a reason.

I just don't see why I have to justify myself to you, like you are in the right somehow, and that your thoughts and actions are already justifiable.

*shrugs*

 

[A_Wanderer]

I'm still not seeing yoir point at all. If we're beings that don't matter in a universe with no universal rights or wrongs then how can our actions really matter? Yes, our actions will always have reactions, thus we'll affect things, but I still don't see how they MATTER.

I'm starting to think that we may define the word "matter" differently. If by our actions mattering you mean they have a cause and effect, then yes, of course they matter. When I talk about our actions mattering I'm referring to a meaning that's higher than simply cause and effect. In a univerese with no higher power what is there besides cause and effect?

There doesn't have to be any higher meaning. Atheism is logically flawed if you take the theological concepts of higher purpose (of which there is no evidence of) to the discussion.

We can logically explain emotions through application of reductionary investigation, scientific explanation of the working of the mind grounded in reality relegates the idea of any divine influence to the same bin of ideas such as humours and Freud.

 

[shart1780]

^ I agree. My argument of what I do matters to me, is logical because *I* see it as logical and therefore thats all that matters.

But side note: Can you LOGICALLY explain that you feel emotions because God makes them real for you? I don't see any logic in that. Your faith is just that YOUR faith. There is nothing in this world suggesting to you there is a God, only what you have been taught and read. You can't say you feel him at thats why you know hes there because I don't feel him and enither does everyone else in the world so therefore that is a subjective answer and can't be used as a reason.

I just don't see why I have to justify myself to you, like you are in the right somehow, and that your thoughts and actions are already justifiable.

*shrugs*

I know this will sound like a cop-out, but the fact that I believe in God grants me certain liberties as to skipping out on logic (I'm gonna get bashed for that), but only when it directly applies to God's miraculous work in this world, which I could never claim to explain.

But I can tell you that I HAVE seen evidence in my life that God is certainly working with it. Of course I can't give you anything more than examples which you probably wouldn't attribute to anything higher anyways, but I personally feel that without God I'd be nowhere near as happy as I am now. The whole "what you have been brainwashed into thinking" argument doesn't apply. I've had plenty of struggles with my faith that lasted for years at a time but I persisted with my faith and, as the Bible promises, it led to me grow much stronger.

Now, I may not be able to logically explain the state of God's being or how He manages to do these miraculous things, but I am capable of inserting that into a logical argument to back up my opinion. The bass of my belief is that God created us, He loves us, wants us to be happy, wants us to follow Him etc. etc..

I feel that VERY few of you are willing to go to the very base of your beliefs and logically argue WHY you're right. As atheists your arguments all need to be held to logic to test validity (unlike religion which doesn't even claim to rely on logic). The farthest down to the base your argument seems to go is "I have life and feelings, therefor they matter. They matter because they're there".

I want to know WHY anything matters in a universe with no black and white, no higher meaning or influence, no nothing except miniscule beings on this tiny speck of a planet. I AM NOT saying that your life doesn't matter, I'm saying that your train of thought seems completely and utterly flawed.

 

[U2DMfan]

I have read all of the threads in response to mine, and they've all basically said the same thing, which the exception of A_Wanderer's, which make sense even if I disagree.

You asked about how emotions and feelings wouldn't matter to an atheist because they were just a result of a scientific process, it was just nothing, as opposed to the person who beleives in God who could see this as some sort of divine intervention or whatever, how the exaxt same sensation would measn something different.

Clearly you were shown that these emotions and feelings are the exact fucking same, you had basically no retort, and now you won't acknowledge it, so....typical.

I do have your back on many of these questions and issue, but you are being a bit of a hypocrite on this one.

 

[BVS]

I know this will sound like a cop-out, but the fact that I believe in God grants me certain liberties as to skipping out on logic (I'm gonna get bashed for that), but only when it directly applies to God's miraculous work in this world, which I could never claim to explain.

And that you definately do, skip on the logic. Even as a believer I find your arguments in here and in some of the other threads to lack logic. Believing in God does not grant you these liberties, whoever told you this lied to you and you may want to ask for your money back.

 

[shart1780]

There doesn't have to be any higher meaning. Atheism is logically flawed if you take the theological concepts of higher purpose (of which there is no evidence of) to the discussion.

We can logically explain emotions through application of reductionary investigation, scientific explanation of the working of the mind grounded in reality relegates the idea of any divine influence to the same bin of ideas such as humours and Freud.

I am in no way questioning the existence of true emotion or the effects it has on people. I'm questioning the opinion of atheists that they should logically be taken as something to be treasured, so to speak, when in the big picture humans don't logically truly matter to the universe.

 

[shart1780]

And that you definately do, skip on the logic. Even as a believer I find your arguments in here and in some of the other threads to lack logic. Believing in God does not grant you these liberties, whoever told you this lied to you and you may want to ask for your money back.

No one told me that. I explained further in the rest of my post why I feel I can take those liberties in an argument regarding God. You can't always use logic in an argument concerning religion, and I think it's silly to think you should. I do however hold myself to the teachings of the Bible, so I'm not just making up things left and right when it comes to God.

 

[VintagePunk]

Four posts since yolland told you to knock it off. I have the feeling that you may be about to experience the "higher power" that is a mod.

Edit - make that five posts.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Well I don't see why because i'm agnostic that my arguments need to be steeped in logic yet you're allowed to skip it because "God can't be explained"

so because I can't break down exactly how I feel for you to be able to understand other then saying that I can love and be happy and whatever without the aid or presence of a higher being in my life that suddenly my THOUGHTS and ACTIONS are flawed?

I think you need to realise that there are a lot of people in this world who don't need God to validate their life, and that we carry on just fine without pretending to ourselves there is a God.

As i said before, I don't think that I have to justify myself to you, because I don't really care if you understand me or not. We are worlds apart with our ideas and for both of us that will never change. I'm happy that you live your life with your god. IF he makes you happy then do it. But you need to understand I am perfectly happy and healthy living my life this way. I don't want, need, or even think about a higher being, and certainly have never felt a need for one. So thats me ok?

 

[shart1780]

I don't see how that's fair, as I'm honestly trying to understand your points/convince you of mine. I'm not just trying to stir up trouble.

I guess I have no choice but to stop if I'm being threatened by a mod though.

 

[U2DMfan]

Four posts since yolland told you to knock it off. I have the feeling that you may be about to experience the "higher power" that is a mod.

Edit - make that five posts.

Fuck that, he should be allowed to speak. period

 

[U2DMfan]

I don't see how that's fair, as I'm honestly trying to understand your points/convince you of mine. I'm not just trying to stir up trouble.

I guess I have no choice but to stop if I'm being threatened by a mod though.

you should be allowed to say your peace, I got your back.

Is there any type of decent accusation against this?

 

[BVS]

No one told me that. I explained further in the rest of my post why I feel I can take those liberties in an argument regarding God. You can't always use logic in an argument concerning religion, and I think it's silly to think you should. I do however hold myself to the teachings of the Bible, so I'm not just making up things left and right when it comes to God.

Well this is an easy cop out to avoid any real discussion based on logic or science for the rest of your life, congrats.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say God created the world, therefore the laws of science, but went out of his way to breaks those laws.

 

[VintagePunk]

I don't see how that's fair, as I'm honestly trying to understand your points/convince you of mine. I'm not just trying to stir up trouble.

I guess I have no choice but to stop if I'm being threatened by a mod though.

You're not going to convince me of yours. In my opinion, you're living your life based on an ancient text that was written by man, and a feeling you have - period. If that's how you want to live you life, fine, have at it. It just makes little sense to me.

 

[shart1780]

Well I don't see why because i'm agnostic that my arguments need to be steeped in logic yet you're allowed to skip it because "God can't be explained"

so because I can't break down exactly how I feel for you to be able to understand other then saying that I can love and be happy and whatever without the aid or presence of a higher being in my life that suddenly my THOUGHTS and ACTIONS are flawed?

I think you need to realise that there are a lot of people in this world who don't need God to validate their life, and that we carry on just fine without pretending to ourselves there is a God.

As i said before, I don't think that I have to justify myself to you, because I don't really care if you understand me or not. We are worlds apart with our ideas and for both of us that will never change. I'm happy that you live your life with your god. IF he makes you happy then do it. But you need to understand I am perfectly happy and healthy living my life this way. I don't want, need, or even think about a higher being, and certainly have never felt a need for one. So thats me ok?

Because of the fact that you have a life view that relies solely on logic I think it's perfectly fair to hold you to it, just as it would be fair for you to hold me to scripture if you felt I was contradicting it.

Again, I'm not questioning whether you can love and be happy without God. I know for a fact that you can lead a happy life without God. I'm asking you to logically explain to me why it matters in the grand scheme of things. Why do you feel you can judge others about their actions in a universe with no higher meaning? Your emotions and thoughts would make perfect sense in a scientific sense, but I'm asking you if they matter in any other sense.

 

[shart1780]

You're not going to convince me of yours. In my opinion, you're living your life based on an ancient text that was written by man, and a feeling you have - period. If that's how you want to live you life, fine, have at it. It just makes little sense to me.

And the way you live your life makes little sense to me. Should we only be able to discuss if we can easily come to a point where we have the same opinion?

 

[trevster2k]

The whole point of not discussing this anymore is that no one is giving him the answer HE is looking for or is satisfied with. Many of us have responded to how we feel and what we think but that apparently isn't good enough for him.

The thread was derailed pages ago by him by suggesting that non-theists are wrong and how he perceives non-theists should feel. As I have stated before, he has no idea how a non-theist views the world and has no right suggesting our views are incorrect. And then saying our answers don't make sense. It's circular logic. Apparently, he knows how we feel and how we should explain we feel. I'm refuse to respond to him anymore.

 

[VintagePunk]

And the way you live your life makes little sense to me. Should we only be able to discuss if we can easily come to a point where we have the same opinion?

There's a major difference here. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm merely trying to explain my experience. I've explained it over and over, and apparently, my explanation is not good enough. I have many religious friends who, while not agreeing with me, can certainly understand my reasoning. It's not difficult, really. Perhaps you can't understand, and that's fine, but admit that, and stop pretending that something is wrong with my explanation, just because it doesn't resonate with you.

Apparently, he knows how we feel and how we should explain we feel. I'm refuse to respond to him anymore.

I'm at that point, too. I'm done. And I would really like to get this thread back on track, before it's closed.