"Welcome to Vietnam, Mr. President"

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melon

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"Welcome to Vietnam, Mr. President"

In a scathing critique of the Iraq war, former U.S. Sen. Max Cleland compares President Bush to Lyndon Johnson -- and blasts his lack of service in Vietnam.

Editor's note: Former U.S. Sen. Max Cleland lost both legs and and an arm during active duty in the Vietnam War, and in 1968 was awarded both the Bronze Star and a Silver Star for his service.

The following Op-Ed was first published in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution Sept. 18.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Max Cleland

Sept. 22, 2003 | The president of the United States decides to go to war against a nation led by a brutal dictator supported by one-party rule. That dictator has made war on his neighbors. The president decides this is a threat to the United States.

In his campaign for president he gives no indication of wanting to go to war. In fact, he decries the overextension of American military might and says other nations must do more. However, unbeknownst to the American public, the president's own Pentagon advisers have already cooked up a plan to go to war. All they are looking for is an excuse.

Based on faulty intelligence, cherry-picked information is fed to Congress and the American people. The president goes on national television to make the case for war, using as part of the rationale an incident that never happened. Congress buys the bait -- hook, line and sinker -- and passes a resolution giving the president the authority to use "all necessary means" to prosecute the war.

The war is started with an air and ground attack. Initially there is optimism. The president says we are winning. The cocky, self-assured secretary of defense says we are winning. As a matter of fact, the secretary of defense promises the troops will be home soon.

However, the truth on the ground that the soldiers face in the war is different than the political policy that sent them there. They face increased opposition from a determined enemy. They are surprised by terrorist attacks, village assassinations, increasing casualties and growing anti-American sentiment. They find themselves bogged down in a guerrilla land war, unable to move forward and unable to disengage because there are no allies to turn the war over to.

There is no plan B. There is no exit strategy. Military morale declines. The president's popularity sinks and the American people are increasingly frustrated by the cost of blood and treasure poured into a never-ending war.

Sound familiar? It does to me.

The president was Lyndon Johnson. The cocky, self-assured secretary of defense was Robert McNamara. The congressional resolution was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. The war was the war that I, U.S. Sens. John Kerry, Chuck Hagel and John McCain and 3 1/2 million other Americans of our generation were caught up in. It was the scene of America's longest war. It was also the locale of the most frustrating outcome of any war this nation has ever fought.

Unfortunately, the people who drove the engine to get into the war in Iraq never served in Vietnam. Not the president. Not the vice president. Not the secretary of defense. Not the deputy secretary of defense. Too bad. They could have learned some lessons:

-- Don't underestimate the enemy. The enemy always has one option you cannot control. He always has the option to die. This is especially true if you are dealing with true believers and guerrillas fighting for their version of reality, whether political or religious. They are what Tom Friedman of The New York Times calls the "non-deterrables." If those non-deterrables are already in their country, they will be able to wait you out until you go home.

-- If the enemy adopts a "hit-and-run" strategy designed to inflict maximum casualties on you, you may win every battle, but (as Walter Lippman once said about Vietnam) you can't win the war.

-- If you adopt a strategy of not just pre-emptive strike but also pre-emptive war, you own the aftermath. You better plan for it. You better have an exit strategy because you cannot stay there indefinitely unless you make it the 51st state.

If you do stay an extended period of time, you then become an occupier, not a liberator. That feeds the enemy against you.

-- If you adopt the strategy of pre-emptive war, your intelligence must be not just "darn good," as the president has said; it must be "bulletproof," as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claimed the administration's was against Saddam Hussein. Anything short of that saps credibility.

-- If you want to know what is really going on in the war, ask the troops on the ground, not the policy-makers in Washington.

-- In a democracy, instead of truth being the first casualty in war, it should be the first cause of war. It is the only way the Congress and the American people can cope with getting through it. As credibility is strained, support for the war and support for the troops go downhill. Continued loss of credibility drains troop morale, the media become more suspicious, the public becomes more incredulous and Congress is reduced to hearings and investigations.

Instead of learning the lessons of Vietnam, where all of the above happened, the president, the vice president, the secretary of defense and the deputy secretary of defense have gotten this country into a disaster in the desert.

They attacked a country that had not attacked us. They did so on intelligence that was faulty, misrepresented and highly questionable.

A key piece of that intelligence was an outright lie that the White House put into the president's State of the Union speech. These officials have overextended the American military, including the National Guard and the Reserve, and have expanded the U.S. Army to the breaking point.

A quarter of a million troops are committed to the Iraq war theater, most of them bogged down in Baghdad. Morale is declining and casualties continue to increase.

In addition to the human cost, the war in dollars costs $1 billion a week, adding to the additional burden of an already depressed economy.

The president has declared "major combat over" and sent a message to every terrorist, "Bring them on." As a result, he has lost more people in his war than his father did in his and there is no end in sight.

Military commanders are left with extended tours of duty for servicemen and women who were told long ago they were going home. We are keeping American forces on the ground, where they have become sitting ducks in a shooting gallery for every terrorist in the Middle East.

Welcome to Vietnam, Mr. President. Sorry you didn't go when you had the chance.

Melon
 
Although certain people want it to be, Iraq is not Vietnam. I could go into detail, but suggesting such a thing is the most gross generalization I've ever seen. The writer here forgets the person that most influences US Foreign Policy is the Secretary of State. His name is Colin Powell.

While President Bush may not of served in Vietnam, Bill Clinton never did either. Nor did 8 of 10 Democratic Candidates. Its unfortunate to see views that only view any event on the planet through the prisim of Vietnam.
 
STING2 said:
Although certain people want it to be, Iraq is not Vietnam. I could go into detail, but suggesting such a thing is the most gross generalization I've ever seen. The writer here forgets the person that most influences US Foreign Policy is the Secretary of State. His name is Colin Powell.

I've read plenty, however, to suggest that the Secretary of State has been undermined by the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, because Rumsfeld relies on his own policy advisers, not the Secretary of State, which is a departure from the past precedent of using the Secretary of State.

Quite honestly, as much as I want to like Colin Powell, I think he is more of a passive tool of the administration, not a player, and I sincerely doubt that influences the U.S. foreign policy much at all in this administration.

Melon
 
melon said:


Quite honestly, as much as I want to like Colin Powell, I think he is more of a passive tool of the administration, not a player, and I sincerely doubt that influences the U.S. foreign policy much at all in this administration.

Melon

I agree. He often looks like he's just being used in a good cop/bad cop routine with Rumsfeld & Co.
 
While President Bush may not of served in Vietnam, Bill Clinton never did either.


and we never heard the end of it.

until the GOP nominated W.

with a military record that any self respecting person would be embarrassed to have others call him Commander in Chief.
 
Quite honestly, as much as I want to like Colin Powell, I think he is more of a passive tool of the administration, not a player, and I sincerely doubt that influences the U.S. foreign policy much at all in this administration.


The best thing Colin could do is go grab Michaels hand and say,

"Son, let's get the Hell out of here while we still have a bit of dignity left.
We don't have to carry their water any more."
 
melon said:


I've read plenty, however, to suggest that the Secretary of State has been undermined by the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, because Rumsfeld relies on his own policy advisers, not the Secretary of State, which is a departure from the past precedent of using the Secretary of State.

Quite honestly, as much as I want to like Colin Powell, I think he is more of a passive tool of the administration, not a player, and I sincerely doubt that influences the U.S. foreign policy much at all in this administration.

Melon


It's Rumsfeld's game, and to be perfectly honest my opinion of Rumsfeld is alot like Scarletwine's. Sorry, I'm not signing up for his fan club.
 
Melon,

"I've read plenty, however, to suggest that the Secretary of State has been undermined by the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, because Rumsfeld relies on his own policy advisers, not the Secretary of State, which is a departure from the past precedent of using the Secretary of State."

Colin Powell easily defeats the Democrats fantasy's about the evils of Rumsfeld and Cheney so naturally they just say he is just a one person Robot. Anyone who knows anything about Powell knows that is rubbish.

"Quite honestly, as much as I want to like Colin Powell, I think he is more of a passive tool of the administration, not a player, and I sincerely doubt that influences the U.S. foreign policy much at all in this administration."

I don't think so. Cheney did not want to go to the United Nations at all last year. It was Powell that insisted this and got President Bush to go through the process of the United Nations. Powell succeeded in getting a UN Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq(one of several already on the books as Cheney would point out) regardless of the fantasy's of the French and others on what they were voting for.

It was Powell that presented the final case for War against Iraq to the UN. On the Contrary, Bush has been tied to Powell on virtually all of the major foreign Policy issues of this administration.

But it does not fit into the Democrats soundbite that the President is surounded by neo-conservitives bent on evil destruction, so Powell is reduced to being a robot of the President.

Colin Powell is a great man and no robot at all. He is the one that is primarily responsible for US Foreign Policy regardless of the Democrats unproven fantasy's about who is doing what.
 
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That wasn't just Powell (going to the UN) the only two other countries who were willing to put military in there from the beginning, the UK and Australia, both pushed the US to go through the UN. I think it was the combination that made them do it.

It does often look like a good cop/bad cop routine though. Rumsfeld/Cheney will do the "We're gonna kick your ass" routine, then Powell will step in with the "Now you don't want that, maybe we can work something out" routine.
 
STING2 said:
While President Bush may not of served in Vietnam, Bill Clinton never did either. Nor did 8 of 10 Democratic Candidates. Its unfortunate to see views that only view any event on the planet through the prisim of Vietnam.

No, Bill Clinton didn't serve either. But Bill Clinton did not start this war, he did not pre-emptively attack Iraq. Nor did 8 of 10 Democratic candidates. Bush did. And that's a big difference (to me).

And the point is not to view any event through the prism of Vietnam. It is the point of having people in command who have no hands-on experience and them overruling the opinions of those who do have the experience.

C ya!

Marty
 
The comparison to Vietnam is more of an effort to evoke an emotional response that a thoughtful historical analysis between the two conflicts.
 
I think it's an accurate comparison to say soldiers are dying needlessly every day without an end in sight.

:down:

This administration makes me sick.
 
I think the comparison had been made years ago as to the consequences.

"Trying to eliminate Saddam would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Appredhending him was probably impossible ... We would have been forced to occupy Bagdad and, in effect rule Iraq....there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another one of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."

"A WORLD TRANSFORMED" President George H. W. Bush (&Brent Sowcroft) 1998

Dubyah let the neocons overcome his fathers own advice. Unfortunately for us, the men & women of the military, and the Iraqis.
 
Popmartijn said:


No, Bill Clinton didn't serve either. But Bill Clinton did not start this war, he did not pre-emptively attack Iraq. Nor did 8 of 10 Democratic candidates. Bush did. And that's a big difference (to me).

Let's see Bill Bombed an Asprin Factory......ooopssssss
He bombed Iraq on mulltple occasions....ooooppsssss
He Bombed Afghanistan.......oops.....

But that was not prre-emtive?
 
Popmartijn,

"No, Bill Clinton didn't serve either. But Bill Clinton did not start this war, he did not pre-emptively attack Iraq. Nor did 8 of 10 Democratic candidates. Bush did. And that's a big difference (to me)."

"And the point is not to view any event through the prism of Vietnam. It is the point of having people in command who have no hands-on experience and them overruling the opinions of those who do have the experience."

Bill Clinton bombed Iraq on multiple occasions over an 8 year period. Operation Desert Fox in 1998 was one of the largest bombing raids of the 1990s with the exception of Gulf War and Kosovo war. In addition Clinton engaged in 78 days of bombing over Serbia and Kosovo and was ready to send in large numbers of ground troops if that did not work. Clinton also bombed Bosnia for several weeks as well in 1995 and sent in large numbers of troops.

Half of the Democratic Candidates who were in Congress at the time VOTED for Bush's resolution to invade Iraq. They voted to "pre-emtively attack Iraq". So no, there is no difference on this issue for them.

Colin Powell had hands on experience in Vietnam. Rumsfeld was a Navy Pilot for 7 years and then served over 30 years in the Navy Reserve. There are multiple persons apart of this administration who have a wide variety of service in both the Military, State Department, National Security Staff, CIA, DIA and other important foreign policy related organizations.

Bush did not overrule anyone. The Majority of the military and State Department supported the moves against Iraq. The Majority of the United States Senate 77 out of 100 members, supported the Presidents position on Iraq, including the majority of Democrats!
 
I think a lot of people supported the military strike on Iraq at the time because they were given false information.

_______________________________
General Wesley Clark for President
 
Scarletwine,

Thats Bush talking about events in early 1991. In no place does he refer to it as Vietnam. At the time that was the right policy. But it was also Bush SR. administration that wrote the UN resolutions authorizing the use of force if Saddam failed to comply with the requirments of the 1991 Ceacefire agreement and multiple other UN resolutions. Trying to disarm and remove Saddam through other means at the time was the right strategy, but Bush Sr. always new that the removal of Saddam may become a necessity if Disarmament failed, which is why the resolutions and Ceacefire agreement authorized military action if the process failed. The Disarmament process did fail and Bush took the legal course of action in accordence with the UN resolutions and Ceacefire agreement that his father set up!
 
Womenfish,

The fact that Saddam had failed to verifiably disarm was not false but a simple fact. Can you name any UN resolutions passed under chapter VII rules of the United Nations that Saddam complied with?
 
The reason given by the administration was that they knew he had weapons and even nice little power point presentations and satellite photos to show us where they were. Not only that, it was an imminent threat to the U.S.

You fail to realize that if Iraq didn't live up to a UN resolution, it's up the UN to hold them accountable.

We went in to Iraq not because of the resolution failure but because we were told that Iraq had WMD's that were an imminent threat to our country, if we didn't act immediately it would be too late.

______________________________
General Wesley Clark for President
 
"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."
Colin Powell in Cairo on February 24, 2001


Riiiight....
 
womanfish,


"The reason given by the administration was that they knew he had weapons and even nice little power point presentations and satellite photos to show us where they were. Not only that, it was an imminent threat to the U.S."

#1 Saddam was required to disarm of all WMD under the 1991 UN Ceacefire agreement because the international community defined WMD in the hands of Saddam to be an imminent threat to the international community.

#2 If you look at the resolutions you will see that Resolutions 678, 687, and 1441 all authorize the use of force if Saddam fail to comply with any or all the resolutions passed against him as a result of the 1991 Gulf War. Other statements and things aside, this is the legal case presented for war by the Bush administration.

#3 UN Weapons inspectors confirmed that in 1998, Saddam had 30,000 Bio/Chem capable shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas. Inspectors were kicked out in 1998 and Iraq only let them return in 2002. Saddam claimed that he destroyed the WMD that he had 4 years later but he did not show any evidence to prove that. Failure to verifiably disarm is a violation of the resolutions and a material breech of Iraq's requirments. Under such conditions member states are authorized by resolutions 678, 687, and 1441 to take military actioni to bring Iraq into compliance

"You fail to realize that if Iraq didn't live up to a UN resolution, it's up the UN to hold them accountable."

The United Nations already authorized the use of force to if Iraq failed to meet its obligations. Resolutions 678, 687, and 1441 do so.


"We went in to Iraq not because of the resolution failure but because we were told that Iraq had WMD's that were an imminent threat to our country, if we didn't act immediately it would be too late."

Any type of military capability that Saddam has whether it is conventional or non-conventional weapons, that is a threat to the safety and security of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey is a threat to the United States.

We did go to Iraq because of Iraq's failure to comply with the resolutions. Those resolutions required that Iraq had to verifiably disarm of the WMD he had. Saddam never did this. Saddam's possession of WMD was defined back in March of 1991 to be an imminent threat to the region and the world. That is why he was required to disarm completely and verifiably or face military action that would do that.

I'll ask you again, which UN resolutions of the 17 that were passed against Saddam did Saddam comply with?
 
TylerDurden,


""He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours.""

This took place 2 years after UN Weapons inspectors left Iraq and might be true in some instances with regards to development of NEW WMD. But it does not change the fact that Iraq had failed to account for 30,000 Bio/Chem capable shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax, and hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas. As long as these things are unaccounted for, Saddam does have significant capacity to launch un-conventional attacks against his neighbors.

Iraq may be unable to take back Kuwait or Saudi Arabia in a conventional military attack, but that does not preclude the ability to launch the attack in the first place and to use banned WMD in the process as well.

Saddam was required to disarm 100%, and nothing in Powells statement shows that anyone had concluded that Saddam had done that. In addition this was only 1 month after coming into office, and new intelligence may have been available suggesting other possible senerio's. In any event, it does not change the fact that 100% compliance was required and had yet to be achieved. Saddam nearly built a Nuclear Weapon back in 1990 prior to the first Gulf War. If left unchecked, this would eventually happen again.

Unless Saddam of course had a change of heart and finally complied with the resolutions and Ceacefire Agreement of the first Gulf War. I ask you, can you name any resolutions that Saddam complied with?
 
Well it looks like he complied with all of them, except admitting anything, probably for self-preservation against Iran, according to the reports coming from Kay.

President Bush's Inspectors Find No Weapons to Support his Claims about Imminent Threat


A desperate five-month search by a team of 1,400 U. S. investigators reportedly has failed to find any new physical evidence of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons in Iraq, despite President Bush's continuing insistence the weapons not only existed but posed an imminent threat to the United States.1

The failure of the U. S. team, led by Bush appointee David Kay, seriously undermines the integrity of the President's assertion two days prior to the war: "Intelligence gathered...leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."2

Bush's bold declaration, according to a subsequent review, was based on old and faulty intelligence data. Former CIA official Richard Kerr, who helped with the review, said Bush's assessment ignored "caveats and disagreements" in the data3 and relied "heavily on evidence that was at least five years old."4 Even the Pentagon's intelligence agency had warned in a classified September 2002 report that "there is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons."5

Bush continued to claim otherwise, saying inaccurately in May, "We found the weapons of mass destruction" and predicting "we'll find more weapons as time goes on."6 The widespread search he initiated, however, now has turned up not a single weapon of mass destruction.

Sources:
1. Inquiry Unlikely to Report Finding Iraq Arms, Reuters, 9/24/03, http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=SWEI0LEDF3UJ0CRBAEZSFEY? type=topNews&storyID=3502138
2. Presidential Speech, 3/17/03, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html
3. "U.S. Used 'Old' Data",
4. "Gauging a threat with little data ; Withdrawal of UN inspectors created intelligence vacuum", New York Times, 7/22/03.
5. Defense Agency Issues Excerpt on Iraqi Chemical Warfare Program, State Department, 6/7/03, http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/arms/03060720.htm.
6. Interview of the President by TVP, Poland, 5/29/03, http://www.whitehouse.gov/g8/interview5.html
 
Scarletwine,

FACT: UN inspectors reported in 1998 that Saddam had 30,000 Bio/Chem capable shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax and hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas. UN inspectors were forced to leave at the end of 1998 and Saddam did not let them back in for four years.

FACT: Saddam let inspectors back in in November 2002. When asked what had happened to the 30,000 Bio/Chem capable shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax and hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas, he claimed to have destroyed them but show no evidence to verify this. This in itself is a violation and material breech of multiple UN resolutions which required Saddam to VERIFIABLY DISARM all his WMD!

FACT: if Saddam in fact destroyed the WMD where are the remains? This is not stuff that disappears into thin air. 30,000 Bio/Chem capable shells is a lot of metal. The only way Saddam could fully comply with the resolutions would be to account and verify the destruction of the WMD in question. Failure to do so is a violation of the UN Ceacefire Agreement, multiple UN resolutions, and member states of the UN are authorized to use force to bring about full compliance.

FACT: There are UN resolutions that Saddam continued to be in violation of that did not involve WMD. Thousands of Kuwaiti citizens are still missing from Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

FACT: The United Nations has NEVER certified Saddam to be in full compliance of any of the 17 UN resolutions passed against him. Failure to comply with the UN ceacefire agreement and UN resolutions means member states of the UN are authorized to use all means necessary to bring about compliance.

FACT: Whether WMD material is found or not in Iraq by the coaltion is irrelevent to the basis for war against Saddam. It was incumbent upon Saddam to verifiably destroy the WMD under strict UN supervision and HE NEVER DID THAT!
 
I feel they were destroyed mostly by the UN inspectors the first time around as stated by Scott Ritter(? I think that's the right name) and the rest were destroyed or sold by Sadaam.
 
Scott Ritter stated in 1998 when UN inspectors left that Iraq still had 30,000 Bio/Chem shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax, and hundreds of pounds of mustard gas.

Any WMD destroyed by Saddam must be verfied by the United Nations or else it is a violation of the 1991 Ceacefire Agreement and multiple UN resolutions. Any WMD that Saddam did destroy, he would have the means with which to show the remains of. Failure to do so is a total violation of the resolutions and provides the authorization for military action as stated in resolutions 678, 687, and 1441.
 
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