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Old 08-14-2002, 04:02 AM   #81
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finding a friendly government in Iraq might become a problem
even people who are against Sadam aren't too thrilled with us because of economic sanctions, bombings etc.

to decide between two evils would implement 2 options
I don't think right now there are two options since we have no idea what will happen when Sadam has been terminated
no idea at all
it would be a gamble
might pay off
it probably will
but what if it won't?
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Old 08-14-2002, 04:42 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
finding a friendly government in Iraq might become a problem
even people who are against Sadam aren't too thrilled with us because of economic sanctions, bombings etc.
Sanctions designed to crush Saddam, had the people overthrown him as predicted.

Quote:
to decide between two evils would implement 2 options
I don't think right now there are two options since we have no idea what will happen when Sadam has been terminated
no idea at all
it would be a gamble
might pay off
it probably will
but what if it won't?
I assume the temperature of the rest of the Arab community might be more pro-america with that menace in the ground. It is my opinion that their "opposition" to this idea now is out of fear only, and that deep down they despise his reign of terror.

We (and perhaps the rest of the world) will have to face this trash sooner or later. I feel it will be in everyone's best interest to face it now.

If the people of Iraq have a new democratic government, leader, freedom, and US aid and NO sanctions what could possibly go wrong?
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Old 08-14-2002, 05:12 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge
If the people of Iraq have a new democratic government, leader, freedom, and US aid and NO sanctions what could possibly go wrong?
I know of at least one democratic chosen government in that area that we also have problems with

what could go wrong is that perhaps nothing will be solved in Iraq

no economic sanction doesn't mean prosperity
a democratic government doesn't mean good leadership

it is true that things probably will work out,
but I'd say there is about a 10% chance it won't

my point is that it's a choice whether or not to remove Sadam
it's not a given
and when we do we better make sure Iraq will be better because of it
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Old 08-14-2002, 05:19 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


Sanctions designed to crush Saddam, had the people overthrown him as predicted.



Youch. I usually lurk, but I decided to post in response to that. The people of Iraq (at least some of them) did attempt to rise up against him, under the illusion that the US was going to go all the way, and remove Saddam.

For pretty obvious reasons (the vacuum of power that would be created - Kurds attempting to get their own state - which would terrify Turkey, the possibility of Iran claiming much of Iraq - the prospect of an Iran that almost bordered Saudi Arabia didn't appeal to the Saudis, the possibility that a leader just as dangerous as Saddam but smarter would emerge etc etc)

I don't think it was ever predicted that the people would overthrow him, definitely not without outside help, which the US had no intent of providing (I mean during Iran Iraq war the US helped both sides). However the US allowed the people to believe this, and it led to horrific reprisals against those brave enough to rise. IMHO what Saddam has done to his own people is pretty much equatable to what Hitler did to the Jews. If a viable plan can be worked out for installing a democratic government of some kind (keep in mind that Iraq in both it's current and previous incarnations has NEVER known democracy) and keeping it there, then I believe he should be removed, by whatever means.

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Old 08-14-2002, 07:40 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
my point is that it's a choice whether or not to remove Sadam
it's not a given
and when we do we better make sure Iraq will be better because of it
I actually agree with this

(it's been a while hasn't it)
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Old 08-14-2002, 07:48 PM   #86
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Originally posted by iMike


Youch. I usually lurk, but I decided to post in response to that. The people of Iraq (at least some of them) did attempt to rise up against him, under the illusion that the US was going to go all the way, and remove Saddam.
That was the attempted coup in 94-95, correct?

Or are you talking about the Gulf War?

Quote:
I don't think it was ever predicted that the people would overthrow him, definitely not without outside help, which the US had no intent of providing (I mean during Iran Iraq war the US helped both sides).


Ummm yes it was, why Bush halted us when Kuwait was liberated. We didn't need to go after Saddam and lose more of our own when his own people would take him out in "6 months" as predicted by our CIA

Quote:
However the US allowed the people to believe this, and it led to horrific reprisals against those brave enough to rise. IMHO what Saddam has done to his own people is pretty much equatable to what Hitler did to the Jews.
Both points here are true.

Though originally or intent was to help if needed in an uprising.

Quote:
If a viable plan can be worked out for installing a democratic government of some kind (keep in mind that Iraq in both it's current and previous incarnations has NEVER known democracy) and keeping it there, then I believe he should be removed, by whatever means.

Mike
Well said Mike.

Welcome to the forum too, btw.
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Old 08-18-2002, 08:02 PM   #87
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Apologies for not expressing my point properly - it was that the US had no real intention of taking Saddam out (for pretty obvious reasons), but led the people to believe that they had, as the distraction was useful to them during the gulf war. I still don't believe that the US administration at the time were willing to topple Saddam - and it does seem that it did not make sense at the time - however (hindsight is perfect sight I suppose) it was an ideal opportunity to remove him.

On another note, it's going to be quite hard to gain international support for invading Iraq (as seen so far). Iraq owes Russia over $9 billion (for arms deals I believe), and because of this Russia blocked US and British efforts to impose "smart sanctions" which would ease restrictions on civilian goods whilst being harder on military supplies. Also, it looks like Germany doesn't want to get involved, and MPs in Britain seem to be making a lot of noise about the whole affair.

Thanks for the welcome !

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Old 08-19-2002, 05:02 PM   #88
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First thing hello everybody, I'm new here.

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The bottom line is, when countries are defeated and taken over by the USA, it is actually a huge benifit since dictatorship is taken out replaced by democracy, US troops to help with security and massive funds to help in reconstruction from the richest country in the world. Again, look at what happened to GERMANY and JAPAN. Look at SOUTH KOREA, a poor farm country in 1950 is now a growing Asian industrial power.
Sting2,
you're missing out on most of US interventionism in the world during the past 60 years. Most of the operations the US have been involved with in the foreign front illustrate that they are NOT particularly interested in establishing democracies throughout the world but rather regimes that are compliant to first world interests (US mainly). Saddam Hussein is a blatant example. He was assisted to power in the past by the US, since he was seen as an asset in the area to counterfeit the Iranian threat back in the 80s. He could have been deposed at the end of the Gulf War, but he wasn't - not particularly because Bush Sr was too concerned with pushing the interventionist line too far, but rather because it was deemed that Hussein could be put to some more good use in the area.

Another example is the Taleban who was helped by the US to gain power against the now re valued Northern Alliance back in 96. The reason: they would be more inclined than the previous government to apply Western-serving policies in an area coveted for its main produce - oil. The fact that they were a fanatical group or that due to their ideology they would be prone to systematically violate human rights and much less still that they were meant to be a dictatorship wasn't a main concern at the time of securing assistance to them, nor were these traits, all surely known by the West beforehand, the main reason (or a reason taken into account at all) of US intervention to depose them last year. In fact the main reason seems to become clearer with time: they suddenly seemed to become less compliant to Western policies than desirable so they had to be removed. Why did the Afghanistan episode of the "war against terrorism" suddenly die down after the Taleban was overthrown, even if the main target which was to capture Osama bin Laden was not even near accomplishment?

Still more examples: Latin American dictatorships back in the 70s (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, etc) were assisted to power by the US (CIA declassified files prove US officials' role in these operations - Henry Kissinger one of them). Motives: 1) to wipe out the threat of a communist takeover in the region (the left wing cells were actually done away with using the worst of methods: state-endorsed terrorism which "to make sure" that there wasn't a single trace of communist danger left murdered thousands of innocent people) 2) to be able to place in these "virgin markets" important quantities of surplus dollars (the infamous "petro-dollars") in the guise of "loans" at outrageous interest rates which now make up most of the debt these countries have to live with and pay back with the suffering of their people which includes the dramatic shrinking of the middle class and deepens the divide between the very rich (who run things) and the increasing poor, a situation that does NOT encourage egalitarian regimes for the present and future at all. These loans have nothing to do with "massive funding" Marshall Plan style. Note that only US/first world compliant dictatorial regimes (i. e. that did NOT have to respond to the people) could have accepted these loans, which obviously never got to the people. Present Latin American "democratic" governments are US respondent - I stress the "democratic" qualification since these governments are "elected" by the people under false promises or lack of other alternatives but all their policies are first world interest subservient in detriment of local populations. If there's a trace of deviation from them they are politely (or not so) removed. The 1989 financial coup in Argentina orchestrated by the newly elected government with the support of the international financial establishment comes immediately to mind. Obviously in none of these cases the US' main interest was to establish a "democracy" or the foundations for further well-meant development, but rather to use its power to accomodate the world's political map to their best interest regardless of who was adversely affected in the process.

Re the use Saddam makes of his country's money, it's certainly not surprising that he doesn't put it into the people's best interest. He is a DICTATOR - he doesn't have to respond to the people's mandate. But the bottom line here is that it was the West who supported his rise to power at the time and absolutely nothing, in view of US past interventions including Iraq in particular, guarantees that the people's interest will be a priority to be considered in that the candidate supported to replace Saddam will be more inclined to serve Iraqi people. In fact this candidate could as bad or even far worse.

To Like someone to blame
you make excellent points throught the thread.

To Salome
Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
nope, I still don't have a solution
but since there really is no prove the bombings in Afghanistan have ended Osama and since the Gulf War didn't end Sadam's thread (obviously since we're in for a repeat) it is a valid question whether attacks are an answer either

and I still don't know what is supposed to happen in Iraq after Sadam has been terminated
Fully agree

To garibaldo
Quote:
Originally posted by garibaldo
Have you anti-war people come up with a viable alternative to our current dilemma that doesn't involve killing? How about yogic flying?
There are solutions but they are long-term, since the present situation in the Middle East and Muslim world in general stems from long-term US and first world policy in general towards this part of the world. Western policy in the area has always been self-serving and detrimental for the locals at the same time. This has created an ideal ground for fanatical groups which fund terrorism as a way of making themselves heard. People support them because they consider the West responsible for the appalling conditions many of them live in as opposed to the Western way of life which flowers in a great part from the riches Asians are milked from on their own soil. When you see thousands of Muslims supporting fanatical regimes you can't possibly understand why they are doing so. Desperation and lack of education is at the root of that. Remove the cause and you'll realise that less and less people will relate to terrorist and fanatical groups.

As a matter of fact, why are the sort of regimes these countries live under tolerated by the West? Or is it that they are convenient to Western interests? If you come to think of it educated people under truly democratic regimes wouldn't put up with the sort of "business" the West is doing with Asian natural resources. The conflict right now stems from the fact that the current regimes which are useful (from Western POV) to keep people in control have got out of hand. It had to be expected sooner or later: dictatorial and other mercenary governments are prone to exacerbate and extreme conduct at some stage. Play with fire...

As Salome has pointed out war has not demonstrated in the long run to be a solution to anything. A change of Western policy is needed which may allow these countries to develop within their own cultures. Naturally it's a slow process but sooner or later it will have to be applied if we don't want this world to be torn to pieces.
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Old 08-19-2002, 10:08 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by ultraviolet7

There are solutions but they are long-term, since the present situation in the Middle East and Muslim world in general stems from long-term US and first world policy in general towards this part of the world. Western policy in the area has always been self-serving and detrimental for the locals at the same time. This has created an ideal ground for fanatical groups which fund terrorism as a way of making themselves heard. People support them because they consider the West responsible for the appalling conditions many of them live in as opposed to the Western way of life which flowers in a great part from the riches Asians are milked from on their own soil. When you see thousands of Muslims supporting fanatical regimes you can't possibly understand why they are doing so. Desperation and lack of education is at the root of that. Remove the cause and you'll realise that less and less people will relate to terrorist and fanatical groups.
Downtrodden, uneducated Palestinian teenagers might be recruited by Hamas and subsidized by Saddam Hussein to conduct suicide bombing missions, but Osama bin Laden sent a bunch of relatively prosperous Saudis to fly the planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
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Old 08-19-2002, 10:50 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Downtrodden, uneducated Palestinian teenagers might be recruited by Hamas and subsidized by Saddam Hussein to conduct suicide bombing missions, but Osama bin Laden sent a bunch of relatively prosperous Saudis to fly the planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
And your point is?
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Old 08-19-2002, 11:27 PM   #91
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so is there a possible peace resolution ????? like what Iraq can do to save its ass ??? Or Sadam Hussein , to let inspection in ??????
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Old 08-19-2002, 11:59 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by ultraviolet7


And your point is?
That poverty and terrorist activity really don't correlate that well.

The US should deal with terrorist groups directly.

And after that, the US should persuade Saudi Arabia and other Muslim nations in the area to do something about their Islamic "theological seminaries."
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Old 08-20-2002, 12:02 AM   #93
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You bring up a relevant question, pinkfloyd.

What if Saddam Hussein DID allow unconditional, unrestricted inspections?

And why DOESN'T he? Does he have something to hide? SO far, his proposals to the U.S. and to the U.N. have been inadequate and clearly on his terms. What is he hiding? Dirty magazines under his desk? A bag of pot under his pillow case? It makes me wonder.

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Old 08-20-2002, 12:14 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama

Dirty magazines under his desk? A bag of pot under his pillow case? It makes me wonder.
Both of these would indeed be serious offenses for a Muslim head of state; all the more justification for getting rid of Saddam Hussein.
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Old 08-20-2002, 12:51 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
That poverty and terrorist activity really don't correlate that well
Probably not where actual terrorists are concerned. However, the education level and financial status of actual terrorists does not necessarily represent that of the people who support them as their only hope of being heard. We are not discussing the profile or the motives of actual terrorists but rather the causes they represent at least on the surface. If the actual recruits do it for ideological reasons, for monetary ones (rewards to suicide bomber families, etc) or are bored/wealth-conscious rich kids, it does not change the fact that ordinary people follow and support them because these groups claim to fight against the cause of real grievances that affect them in their everyday existences.

Even if it is true that terrorist cells do not operate most of the time out of legitimate national/regional interest but use such issues which ARE really pressing to obtain benefit (economic, of negotiation, etc) for themselves, this musn't be misunderstood as that the motives (i.e. poverty/oppression/substandard - not to say subhuman - living conditions) which make ordinary people support terrorist action don't exist. If such motives cease to exist, terrorist cells won't have any support and thus will eventually disappear.

Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
The US should deal with terrorist groups directly.
It doesn't seem to be an easy task since no-one who tried this approach (Israel against Hamas/Hezbollah, the British against the IRA, the Spanish against the ETA, Dubyah's "war in Afghanistan", etc) has had any success up to date.

Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
And after that, the US should persuade Saudi Arabia and other Muslim nations in the area to do something about their Islamic "theological seminaries."
Meaning?
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Old 08-20-2002, 04:11 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


What if Saddam Hussein DID allow unconditional, unrestricted inspections?
Bush has already said the US reserves the right to bomb Iraq regardless of the admission and findings of UN weapons inspectors.
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Old 08-20-2002, 08:26 AM   #97
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uv7,

I might be wrong, but I get the feeling that ObL didn't spend the last 5 years of his life hiding in hollowed-out mountains in Afghanistan so that he could win any popularity contests. I think that Osama bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad know perfectly well what they want and would be able to continue their operations even if they weren't so wildly popular in the Middle East.

And the Islamic "theological seminaries" in Saudi Arabia and throughout the Middle East that I was referring to are really centers for Islamic fanaticism and blatant anti-West propaganda (I'll try to look up a reference for you later). So there's plenty of support for these terrorist groups in the absence of poverty and oppression.

I do agree that Palestine should have an independent democratic state (that will also have the means to round up terrorists, instead of the IDF having to do it), and I do agree that the US should seriously reconsider its ties with Saudi Arabia, but neither of these points obviates the need for the US to continue to fight against militant Islamists.
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Old 08-20-2002, 07:41 PM   #98
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally posted by ultraviolet7
First thing hello everybody, I'm new here.

Welcome!

I agree with you completely.

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Old 08-20-2002, 07:50 PM   #99
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Quote:
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Bush has already said the US reserves the right to bomb Iraq regardless of the admission and findings of UN weapons inspectors.
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Old 08-20-2002, 07:57 PM   #100
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I think zedge post resumes it, dubya wants to play war, he was looking for an excuse, but in fact he doesn't need it, he needs to play war to boost his chances to be elected again, since the economy in the USA (his fault or not) is still going down....or I may be wrong

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