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10-16-2001, 06:17 PM
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#1 |
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The Fly
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 'round here...
Posts: 74
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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War Topic - If you wanna hear another bell...
I wont give any opinion, in orther to avoid any discussion, just take a look at this...
__________________--------------------------------------------- Changing faces of terrorism By Sayeed Hasan Khan and Kurt Jacobsen ADMIT it. Doesn't President Bush sound perfectly reasonable when he pleads that the "civilized world" must go beyond crushing bin Laden and his cronies in order to root out terrorists wherever they may lurk? Isn't it terribly hard to resist his righteous call for a global struggle against terrorism, mounting a sort of secular jihad against jihadists? Only spoilsports ask where it will all end. They are much too short-sighted. Consider that Bush's ambitious anti-terrorist enterprise, if performed with truly ruthless honesty, will prove extremely enlightening for all the rest of us poor citizens who thereby may get some very rare peeks into how power really works. After all, pursuing terrorist trails all the way to their bitter ends (and bitter beginnings) is likely to create a great many acute embarrassments for the very authorities who form the posse chasing vermin. In international politics, ruled by fickle realpolitik, the posse itself is likely to be made up of many former bandits, suddenly redefined in Oprah-like political "makeovers" as sheriff's deputies so as to serve the latest shift in superpower interests. Behold the fantastic record of an Alice-in-Wonderland world where an enemy is exactly what the US government says one is, nothing more and nothing less - until it says otherwise. In and around Nicaragua in the 1980s Somoza's merrily murderous National Guard, presto, become Ronald Reagan's freedom-fighting Contras. In Panama Manuel Noriega was a bosum buddy of the USA one year and public enemy number one the next. In the same decade Saddam Hussein was Uncle Sam's esteemed pal, but in the 1990s well, you know the rest. (One of us appeared on BBC Radio in 1988 with an American ambassador who staunchly defended Saddam Hussein.) Likewise, the Mujahideen and their zealous Taliban outgrowth were holy warriors of freedom with whom even Rambo revelled in one decade, and incubators of pure evil the next. Don't get us wrong about the Soviets, we mean, the Russians and their current warm rapport with America. Weren't they once the malignant force that America feared enough to support the most vicious dictatorships in the name of democratic values? Nelson Mandela was imprisoned on Robben Island as a terrorist for decades and whatever happened to him? Menachim Begin was blowing up British soldiers in Palestine in the mid-1940s. The Northern Alliance, though surely welcome allies, are hardly dedicated defenders of democracy and their cruelty in the temporary takeover of Kabul is too well remembered. A subpoena is pursuing Henry Kissinger, Nobel Peace Prize winner, for his role in the overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile and, as Christopher Hitchens accuses in a new book, he is implicated in many other state terrorist acts too. Dizzying, isn't it? Blair and Bush claim they are going in to destroy heroin drug traffickers who fund terrorists. Yet, as the Iran-Contra scandal showed, American secret agencies have cultivated the drug trade as a secret revenue source for South-east Asian and then Central American allied forces since the 1950s. So when is a terrorist (or sponsor of terrorists) not a terrorist (or a sponsor of terrorists)? If we want to punish evil-doers, a consistent and equally applied definition does not seem too much to ask. Noam Chomsky points out that if the US, suppliers of arms to Turks who freely killed Kurds in the 1990s, applied to itself the same legal and ethical criteria that they invoked to intervene in Kosovo, then the US would have to intervene against its own government. Gerry Adams, president of Sinn Fein, widely regarded as the political wing of the provisional IRA, was no longer a terrorist when President Clinton granted him a US visa in 1994. That sudden, if carefully considered, move hasn't worked out too badly for an incomparably more peaceful Ulster. Yet the IRA itself was reborn in the 1960s in reaction to the terrorist acts of loyalist paramilitary organizations abetted by a deeply oppressive sectarian regime. Is there legitimate resistance to oppression which does not deserve the name of terrorism? Can't states be terrorists? Today Hamas is called a terrorist organization but there is disturbing evidence that before the Israeli-PLO dialogue started Hamas was given covert support by Israel in order to split the Palestinians and isolate them from the PLO and to devalue their cause internationally. Where does one even begin to appraise who is a terrorist when General Pervez Musharraf, on taking power in 1999, halted President Clinton's effort to train assassins (itself a violation of American law) to get bin Laden? The whole seamy tale of Lumumba and western intelligence agencies in the Congo has no heroes. States often aid groups that other states regard as terrorists. Clearly, terrorists are not only ragged bands of underfunded outcasts who always fight on the wrong, that is to say, weaker side. So asking authorities to define terrorism is something the whole world should welcome. Syrian diplomats and Hizbullah Secretary-General Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, who are not in such good odour in the West, make an eminently reasonable request for "a clear, specified and correct definition of terrorism, and to distinguish it from the concept of legitimate resistance." If we arrived at a definition acceptable to the entire UN, for example, we would help create an extraordinary permanent coalition, capable of responding aptly to any threat by proper combinations of police work, bombs, bread and mediation. Who can possibly argue against that? However, the joy of realpolitik is that it is a plaything of the elites, a game restricted to whoever occupies office of power. Every vested interest keeps an inventory of desired items it wants to push at every opportunity. Hence, George Bush defends a tax cut for the rich as a rational blessing in good times and, as a downturn threatened, as a boon to lift the economy. Rationality is beside the point in such moments. As Daniel Ellsberg observed in the aftermath of the Vietnam war, it was a credit to the American people that politicians had to lie to them so much about that vile war, although it was shameful that it was so easy to do. Elites historically are allergic to telling ordinary citizens anything worth knowing so we should applaud any chance for free debate about so important an issue as terrorism. Citizens must try to find out where security measures are really going to help, especially where civil liberties are concerned. Consider the fact that oppressive regimes, including Muslim ones like the one in Algeria, define as terrorists perfectly civilized people who fled to the UK for asylum. So then, is the UK, technically speaking, harbouring terrorists in these cases ? Now the UK is threatening to change the law so that dissidents of any kind are treated as if they were rabid terrorists, particularly if they don't suit the UK's political aims of the moment. Obviously, we must punish the people who perpetrated the World Trade Centre horror. Perhaps we can talk as well about the less obvious forms that terror takes. Arundhati Roy rightly asks why not hunt down and turn in the CEO of Union Carbide for the Bhopal gas leak disaster in which company negligence was responsible for killing thousands and harming many more? Terror takes many forms. Perhaps the world's nations eventually can figure out how to protect their citizens from these less conspicuous terrorists, too. Let us welcome this extraordinary opportunity to work out a sensible and binding definition of terrorism. Any such definition, of course, will be highly attentive to the shifting contexts in which people act. When visiting East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) Zhou Enlai was asked by Governor Monem Khan if it was true that he once was nearly executed as a terrorist when he was nabbed by Chiang Kai-Shek's forces? Zhou nodded, smiled and observed that there was a very, very thin line between a traitor and a patriot. ------------------ Patti -Pride Girl- |
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10-16-2001, 06:39 PM
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#2 |
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Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:38 AM
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You won't give any opinion because you want to avoid discussion??
__________________1)You don't have to give your opinion, Patti. We know what your opinion would probably be from reading all your other US-Bashing posts. 2)If you wanted to "avoid discussion" on a topic, why in the heck did you post it in the first place? Do you not expect people to fight over it? Of course you did. |
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10-16-2001, 07:32 PM
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#3 |
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ONE
love, blood, life 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,789
Local Time: 11:38 AM
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A good article, but one, surely, that no one here will want to read.
I'm awaiting for the excuses to blast this article as "liberal tripe," how the writers of this article must obviously hate America so much that they should move to Afghanistan if they don't like it, and how, because this wasn't mentioned on FOX News, it must be a lie. *sits back and waits* Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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10-16-2001, 07:38 PM
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#4 |
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The Fly
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Austin, TX USA
Posts: 54
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Well said melon....I'll wait with you.
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10-16-2001, 07:53 PM
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#5 |
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The Fly
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Waukegan, Illinios, United States
Posts: 55
Local Time: 09:38 AM
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I decided to post this letter I got the other day.
It doesn't really mean anything to me and it's definately not my opinion or stance (  ).I just thought I should post it!  GOD BLESS AMERICA -------------------------------------------------------------- Broken Arrow, Oklahoma School officials remove "God Bless America" signs from schools in fear that someone might be offended. Channel 12 News in Long Island, New York, orders flags removed from the newsroom and red, white, and blue ribbons removed from the lapels of reporters. Why? Management did not want to appear biased and felt that our nations flag might give the appearance that "they lean one way or another". Berkeley, California bans U.S. Flags from being displayed on city fire trucks because they didn't want to offend anyone in the community. In an "act of tolerance" the head of the public library at Florida Gulf Coast University ordered all "Proud to be an American" signs removed so as to not offend international students. I, for one, am quite disturbed by these actions of so-called American citizens; and I am tired of this nation worrying about whether or not we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on September 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled in New York and Washington D.C. when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. In fact, our country's population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants; however, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand. First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam, We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society - learn our language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation; and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him. We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag. As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. We are Americans, like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, the right to leave. If you agree, pass this onto other Americans!! It is time to take a stand!! [This message has been edited by whammy (edited 10-16-2001).] |
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10-16-2001, 08:26 PM
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#6 | |
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The Fly
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 'round here...
Posts: 74
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Quote:
1) It does not answer my main topic, or (since there hasnt been any question) it has no conection with it (And, Check again, the two guys who wrote the articles are Unitedstatians) 2) There is nothing new in that letter. I know the way you think, but, you said that "We are Americans, like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle" and im NOT against it...As long as it is in YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR LAND AND YOUR LIFESTYLE, but you(all)ve started to mess with another lifestyle and stuff...so we dont want you to mess with us, thats all!!! BTW the letter is offensive to all the Jews (and you have a LOT there) and the muslims you have there, considering that GOD is not only the Catholic GOD... Love for you Whammy, even though you are so childish! Love and peace on earth for all the rest, and now yes, I hope I havent forgot to post anything so I can quit Free your mind! *I sit down by Melon and Radiodivision and congratulate them* ------------------ Patti -Pride Girl- |
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10-16-2001, 08:37 PM
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#7 |
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The Fly
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 'round here...
Posts: 74
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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BTW...
Is it your landguage "unitedstatian"? Cos I think you speak English (that comes from England) and (AGAIN BTW) read your contitution, it does not mark an official landguaje so, you speak FRENCH, ARABIC, CHINESSE all toghether...LOL! On other topic...raise your hand all the countries that have a Flag day, Independence day, Memorials day etc...(cos mine one does have em all, and it does not make it better than any other) Now, yes, bye! Love and peace on earth (I wont read again that letter cos i would never ever stop) ------------------ Patti -Pride Girl- |
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10-16-2001, 08:51 PM
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#8 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Pattie,
You forgot that all Catholics, Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God. |
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10-16-2001, 09:09 PM
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#9 |
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Acrobat
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Montral, Qubec
Posts: 317
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Well, here it goes again. Most non-United Staters are against war and then the United Staters say "well, it didn't happened in your country" or "you always bash the usa".
Yes, it didn't happened in my country, and yes I bash the US everytime I can, along with other principles and I even go protest against some actions of my own country. What most United Staters don't understand and don't want to see is that the USA controls the world. You are everywhere. You control the United Nations. You don't take the responsabilities a decent super-power would take. You don'T care about the world and when you go somewhere, it's to protect YOUR interests, mostly economical interests. That's globalization, that's your stuff, it's not for the benefit of anyone except your country and some riches of the other countries. You use people and when those people do something that can be turned wrong or when they in fact do something against your country, you go "to defend freedom"... while you defend only your interests, as usual, not the people you say you defend. And who do you defend in this war against terrorism ? You bashed Russia when it took action in Tchechenia, but now you are doing the same in Afghanistan. Why ? Because it happened to YOU. You supported terrorism before and dictatorships, like Pinochet or the Israelis terrorism. This is not about religion, it's about economics... Long live the economical dictatorship ------------------ Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me dfendrai... je ne capitulerai pas. "I am the last man. Against all, I will defend myself. I shall not capitulate". " Soy el hombre pasado. Contra todos me defender. No capitular. " "Ich bin der letzte Mann. Gegen alle verteidige mich ich. Ich kapituliere nicht. " "Sono l' ultimo uomo. Contro tutti mi difender. Non capitulate." - Eugne Ionesco, "Rhinocros" |
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10-16-2001, 09:19 PM
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#10 |
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Kid A
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 10:38 AM
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this is great comic relief! I love it when you throw around the terms "unitedstatians" and "United Staters"
may I suggest "USAers" or "USAians" for short?!?! |
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10-16-2001, 09:35 PM
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#11 |
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Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 10:38 AM
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How free America is! People post anti-American sentiment here and get bashed by America-lovers. But that's all. tehy get bashed on a forum. Well big whooping doo. How would you like to be arrested for speaking against your Governement? Doesn't happen in the good old USA. But go to Communist China and try it. or Cuba. Or, while we're on the topic, Afghanistan! Man, I love this country!
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10-16-2001, 09:49 PM
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#12 | |
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The Fly
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 'round here...
Posts: 74
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Quote:
"..."In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles..." It does not say "In Jesus we trust" ------------------ Patti -Pride Girl- |
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10-17-2001, 02:30 AM
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#13 | |
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Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,687
Local Time: 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Contrary to your opinion, the actions of the US government do not always represent the beliefs of all Americans. So wipe that silly "you do this, you do that, you're to blame, you're at fault" crap out. To say that the United States doesn't care about the world is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard out of this entire fiasco resulting from the September 11th tragedy. The United States just can't win with some people. We can give more aid per capita to foreign countries than any other nation, and someone will say that it's only to protect our interests ([rant]well no shit, sherlock! I'd say keeping foreign nations stable is a damn good thing to have an interest in. Unless of course you want us to just leave the rest of the world completely alone and let things fall to pieces. We live in an age of truly global relations - political, economic and ethnic. Any country would be a fool to turn a blind eye to troubles in one part of that relationship, because sooner or later it's gonna be felt on our side[/rant]). We can get involved militarily to try and speed the resolution of conflicts, and people will say we're sticking our noses into places they shouldn't be. We can sit back and let people work out their differences and people will say that we're not doing enough with all of our power to promote peace. We can try diplomacy (I believe we gave the Taliban an option to hand over Bin Laden several times, and they've refused every time or tried to weasel their way out of it) and when that doesn't get anywhere and leaves us no real option except military action, people will bitch that we just couldn't wait to throw our military might around. I'm frankly getting sick of all these people who have it all figured out, and know exactly what we're doing wrong, while offering no viable alternatives to back up their side. |
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10-17-2001, 02:31 AM
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#14 | |
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The Fly
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 112
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Bravo 80s! Couldn't have said it better myself. ------------------ Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen. |
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10-17-2001, 02:39 AM
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#15 | |
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The Fly
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 112
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Quote:
I once again, salute you, sir. |
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10-17-2001, 03:55 AM
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#16 | |
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The Fly
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 112
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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Quote:
HJ, Half of the time I wish the US would just pull out of all its foreign interests, close its borders, including the one we share with YOU, and use all our foreign aid money helping US citizens that live in poverty. Live a truly pre-WWII existence. Just let the influence of Russia, China, and North Korea pervade the rest of the planet. Then we would see how the US stood up to your "responsibilities of a superpower", when compared to those three bastions of goodness. But, that's not realistic. In the eyes of the world, we are supposed to help starving countries and fight for the weak, even though there will always be do-nothing pricks like yourself who just sit back and judge our every move as "self-serving". ------------------ Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen. [This message has been edited by StarsnStripes (edited 10-17-2001).] |
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10-17-2001, 09:01 AM
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#17 | ||
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The Fly
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lynn Haven, FL
Posts: 145
Local Time: 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
[This message has been edited by babble (edited 10-17-2001).] |
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10-17-2001, 09:20 AM
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#18 |
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ONE
love, blood, life
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,789
Local Time: 11:38 AM
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I see that no one has commented on the article at hand. I see that my original post still hold true--"a good article, but one, surely, that no one here will want to read." Instead, it's just the same old bickering, and I'm tired of having to be the one to resurrect debates.
*still sits back and waits* Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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10-17-2001, 10:54 AM
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#19 |
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War Child
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: the Bad Girls School where MissMac graduated from.
Posts: 549
Local Time: 03:38 PM
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This quote is from my boss, who happily sits here next to me, reading bits of Interference for quite some time now..
Is it un American to disagree with the policies of US, absolutely not. That is part of the American way. You should be thankful you live in a country that allows you to have those view points. Has the US made errors in foreign policy? Yes! But, to say that at some way we are responsible for what happened on Sept. 11 is also wrong. All foreign policy by every country is self serving. Also, those who are responsible for 9-11, did not they also have a responsibilty to also handle the events diplomatically. Good qoute I may add..(sucking up to get a high raise)j/k!! |
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10-17-2001, 11:17 AM
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#20 |
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ONE
love, blood, life
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,789
Local Time: 11:38 AM
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I agree with what you write, BV, but, if you look at the topic here, it is not about Sept. 11th or Afghanistan specifically.
__________________And this isn't directed at you specifically. No one here has commented on what the article has to say; just some personal attacks and diversions. Afghanistan, it seems, has overrun this forum completely. Melon ------------------ "He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time |
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