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Old 11-26-2001, 01:42 PM   #41
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What would have happened if America had done nothing? Well, let's look at this questions in a different perspective: What would have happened if America had never destroy millions of lives before Sept 11th. Would we have been attacked? Would we have deserved the attack? Probably not.

My point here is simple. If we continue to kill innocent civilians in the name of love, which is essentially what we are claiming to do, why are we outraged when those effected by our "Freedom fighters" and "Anti-Terrorist" bombings fight back?

I remember hearing from independent media sources long before the Sept 11th attacks. About how America had bombed civilian land spaces, how we had funded rebels like Bin Ladin in Afganistan...and on and on...and I wondered when we would finally get hit ourselves? Well, it happened, and it was a hard price to pay.

I feel tremendously sorry for anyone who lost a loved one in the attacks. It could have been anyone's family that died...that's how scary terrorism is. I am also very deeply saddened that our only response is to bomb people that haven't even admitted their guilt. That's even more scary. To think that our government doesn't think twice about killing people as the terrorist do.

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Old 11-26-2001, 05:59 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Danospano:
I am also very deeply saddened that our only response is to bomb people that haven't even admitted their guilt. That's even more scary. To think that our government doesn't think twice about killing people as the terrorist do.
1)He did admit guilt in a video tape a couple weeks ago.
2)Even if he hadn't (which he did), the evidence was overwhelming according to all sources, British, American, Russian, UN that viewed it.


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Old 11-26-2001, 07:28 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Johnny Swallow:
So you think that Afganistan would just let American/UN forces could just walk around their country at free will?

*Reality check*
Uh yeah, I do. Don't bother yelling at me cuz I think all you right wingers are nuts, and I'm not nessisarily coming back, but here's one that might shock you: the Afaganis hate the Taliban. There is no way in hell that the armies of the Taliban could EVER stand up to ours (think desert storm people.) The majority of people in that country want the Taliban the hell out. By bombing the civilians who actually are our supporters (which we are doing intentionally or not) we are not exactly putting ourselves out there as nice people.
Everyone on the planet is sorry for us, we all deplore what happened on September 11, but the majority of nations also see us as spoiled brats. We are not helping our image in any way by hurting the innocent, in fact we are just guarenteeing that another generation of kids is going to grow up hating the US military industrial complex.
Basically at this point Afganistan is our bitch, they have nothing but bombed out buildings left, their agriculture is ruined and the people want us to help them. Send in the damn ground troops, ferret Osalma Bin Ladin's crazy ass out, kill him and be done with it.

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Old 11-26-2001, 11:04 PM   #44
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Bono thinks of The Osama as a spoiled brat.
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Old 11-27-2001, 10:40 AM   #45
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Someone invades a country, sets up a "govenment", and "proclaims" that they are in control. That doesn't mean the occupied people are complicit in the government's crimes, especially if they're truly helpless. In Afghanistan, we're talking about starving people, many of whose legs have been blown off by landmines. People who want peace but have no control over it. People who are used and abused in horrendous fashion by the brutal regime, through no fault of their own.

And you can't justify murdering civilians by saying "hey, it's war". This sounds simplistic, but it's quite valid: if it was your family, I don't think it would seem very acceptable at all.

And as for solutions, I'm glad you asked because I do have a few suggestions. First, I'd like to say that I DO believe the U.S. could be a major positive influence in stopping terrorism. Of course it's a complicated problem, but this would be a good start:

1. The U.S. should stop supporting terrorists around the world. I'm ashamed to say it, but we (the U.S.) are the leading financial supporters of terrorists and human rights abusers around the world. U.S. foreign policy is based on the principle of creating a "favorable business climate" for our companies in other countries. What this involves is working hard to prevent unionization of workers, humane working conditions, environmentally sound policies - and doing whatever it takes (murder, torture, preventing freedom of speech, etc.) to accomplish this. The way we do it is by supporting brutal dictators/regimes financially so they can use their brutal armies/death squads to suppress human rights. The number of countries in which we do this is VERY large, and this is VERY well documented.

2. Stop selling arms. The 5 U.N. security council nations are responsible for 90% of world arms sales, with the U.S. the leader by far. Boeing, Lockheed, General Electric, Honeywell - yes they make commercial airliners and light bulbs and burglar alarms, but the way they make their money is by massive government (ours and others) contracts to make tanks, bombers, fighter planes, munitions, etc.

3. Stop providing unjust diplomatic support for our companies hurtful policies overseas. For instance, the U.S. sues African countries for patent infringement when they try to find alternative ("generic") versions of drugs sold by our companies at prices they can't afford. I'm talking about malaria, TB, and other diseases that could be eradicated with sound policy. Let's give them a break - Africa loses millions of lives a year because of their inability to treat simple diseases. Also, the U.S. threatened trade sanctions against several Southeast Asian countries when they tried to limit cigarette imports in 1996-7 - the countries were forced to back down, and the rate of teen smoking in Japan (one example) has increased by more than 10% PER YEAR since then. That's a lot of deaths.

4. Debt relief. Why should African countries that can't feed their people be forced to pay money to the U.S.? Especially when the "loans" were never used for human/social development but to support brutal 3rd world dictators who supported our business policies.

5. Every citizen should learn about what its country is up to by reading many sources, of which many should include foreign ones - the U.S. press (like any countries but much more powerful) cannot be depended upon to provide anything but propaganda. And get involved in nonviolent efforts to improve the behavior of our country.

Long . . . but anyway it's a start.

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Old 11-27-2001, 04:09 PM   #46
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Whoever read my posts in other threads will know that I have always been pro-war. I have always been for the removal of such terror. In fact, my only criticism of the USA and the West is that they should have done it ages ago.

However, I'm going to share an experience I had with all those who oppose the war and think of the children.

THe other day, when going to my university, I was mobbed by a band of Marxists who gave me plenty of leaflets. 'STOP THE WAR' they said, 'NOT IN MY NAME' the leaflets said. It was propaganda for a meeting two days after. I'm not a right-winger, I'm a Socialist. However, I have always found the Marxists to be quite laughable. However, I attended the meeting so I could find out if anyone had an efficient alternative to war.

The meeting was a complete waste of time, I realised that no one in the room had any suggestions whatsoever. Not only that, but they all ignored the only person who was qualified to know what was really best for his country; this Afghan doctor who had been invited to make a speech against the war.

Now, I soon realised that this gentleman was very quiet. So I asked him; "Sir, in you could be the ambassador to your country right here and now, could you tell me what is it your country needs the most and do you think the present course of action is helping your country achieve it".

His answer was thus;
"My country wants freedom, but not one dictated by others. My country wants peace, but not at whatever price. My country wants to be free from the tyranny of the Taliban, and, as terrible as the bombings are, I do see my country happier in many ways. There is a saying in my country; some good can come out of bad. ANd this is the case here".

The other speakers went red. Everyone in the audience began to grumble. This was, after all, supposed to be an anti-war meeting, and I had helped this gentleman to prove the opposite. Some stupid woman in the audience told the Afghan doctor that she disagreed with him, telling him that he was mistaken. To this I responded by saying; "Madame, I think he is more qualified than you as to what his country wants and needs. I mean, the fact that he was born and raised there may have something to do with it".

Now, at this point everyone exploded at me. I was called an anarchist and an agnostic in the face of peace. I was told loads, but I refused to listen at this point. My worst fears had been proven; these complacent fools honestly thought that they knew what was better for the Afghan people than an actual Afghan. Now, this man, an Afghan who still has family there and probably knew more about it than anybody else in the room, actually believed that the bombing was doing a lot of good, and was the best course of action.

Any doubts I may have had before this meeting were completely removed. The doctor confirmed what I thought all along; there IS good coming out of this, and it worth the losses.

As cold-blooded as it may seem, if we had to 'think of the children' all the time, the world would have been conquered by Japan and Nazi Germany by now. We'd be in a very VERY different world.

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Old 11-27-2001, 07:50 PM   #47
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I may not agree with you on every issu, but I agree 100% with what you just posted. Your experience and knowledge speaks for itself. I think if everyone could balance their idealism with realism as you do, the voice of reason would be louder.


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