WalMart, The High Cost Of Low Price

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Why is neccessary to point out WalMart? Hell, there are hundreds of chain stores that fall into this category. Why is it more important for a mom and pop operation to succeed than walmart? Mome and pop can't afford to pay a substantial wage anymore than walmart wants to. Economics is economics. People pretty much earn what they're worth. Regardless of how much you think you should earn. Simple supply and demand.

U2DMfan, I absolutely agree with your argument. WalMart is not the big bad wolf anymore than McDonalds, Pottery Barn, or Old Navy. Sure it would be great to be able to shop at exclusive stores, but sometimes I just want to save a few bucks on a DVD. Why should I feel Bad about it?
 
VertigoGal said:
I'm willing to bet the thousands of people getting laid off from the GM plant a few miles from here will be shopping at Wal-Mart for a while.

And I'm sure GM will still end up in bankruptcy court someday. After all, selling people ugly gas guzzlers isn't the ticket to profitability. That's not the union workers fault, since they just build whatever they're told to build, but the executives. And I'm sure the bankruptcy court judge will reward its overpaid, inept management with multi-million dollar bonuses as a reward for driving the company into the ground (as is standard with most bankruptcies of major corporations). The only thing it's workers get is an unemployment check.

melon, would the Wal-Mart employees on food stamps and welfare magically have no need for social programs if they didn't even have the Wal-Mart job? (I mean, you could argue they'd be in a better position at some quaint Mom & Pop Shop if Wal-Mart never existed in the first place, but what's done is done and all that...)

That's not the point. These people are working. Now if you believe that only college-educated people deserve a reasonable wage, just say so. Then we'll have to figure what to do with the 75% of the U.S. population that doesn't have a college degree, and then wonder why our crime rate keeps on going up, and why our economy collapses because nobody is spending. And then you'll wonder why you're unemployed too when your company has to layoff half its labor force to make up for the lack of revenue.

Prior to 1986, across the board, we had something called the "Windfall Profits Tax." Whether one believes it to have been applied rather repressively or extremely is up for debate, but what it was intended to do was to force large corporations to duck the tax by reinvesting "excessive profits" either into the business or its labor. In practice, it achieved both. Once the tax was repealed, all the benefits of the tax ended. Blue-collar wages started to get slashed and businesses started to become more unstable. With less cash on-hand and more dependency on stock investment, you then ended up with companies declaring bankruptcy when a rumor destroyed their stock value.

For reference's sake, those $10 billion in Wal-Mart profits are $1 billion more than Exxon's profits this year from the high oil prices. We also happen to have a system where health coverage is dependent on the employer providing it. Now if you'd like to change that system, you'd have my support. We are inevitably careening towards nationalized healthcare. GM, prior to laying off 30,000 jobs here, mentioned that Canada is very desirable to them for growth. Their labor is all well-paid union labor like in America, but there's one difference: with Canada's national healthcare, GMs labor costs are slashed. If we are to be competitive, we are going to have to go to national healthcare. Period.

But since we have pea-brained Republicans running the show, let's get down to the hard facts. When Wal-Mart's employees are on welfare, your money is paying for it. When Wal-Mart's employees don't contribute to the health insurance superstructure, your health care premiums go up, because there are less people contributing. Wal-Mart has $10 billion in profit, and you're paying for their employees' basic needs.

Now if corporations have no responsibilities to their employees, fine. But our current economic system is predicated on the premise that corporations will, indeed, pay their employees living wages, and that corporations will, indeed, provide their full-time employees with adequate benefits. And Wal-Mart is not living up to its end of the bargain, while raking in more profits than price-gouging oil companies.

Goddamn it...why can't the Democratic Party publically say this when we need them?

Melon
 
Abomb-baby said:
Why is neccessary to point out WalMart?

Because they are consistant with these shady practices. I never dealt with these practices with any other large chain.

But it's easy to turn a blind eye, when you are saving a couple of bucks.:|
 
I don't believe only college-educated people deserve decent pay. What I'm saying is that someone who is on welfare while working at Wal-Mart would be even more of a burden if they were just unemployed. Now that I understand your point, that doesn't seem relevant, but just thought I'd clear that up...

Our crime rate is going up?

If companies should be obligated to provide certain services or if we need windfall taxes or nat'l healthcare (which I'm not so sure about in either case)...then we need to turn to the gov't for that. Wal-Mart is a business and their primary aim is to make money.

And honestly, looking at the price of food around here at Wal-Mart compared to other stores, the money that my family saves on food each year seems to far outweigh whatever portion of our taxes goes to welfare and food stamps for the guy at the checkout.
 
VertigoGal said:
Our crime rate is going up?

It will, if you have mass amounts of indefinitely unemployed people. American culture, in general, is predicated on greed, and as long as the money keeps on coming in, Americans are complacent and cohesive. Once the money runs out, they degenerate into madness.

If the Palestinian Territories didn't have a 75%+ unemployment rate, I'm sure they wouldn't be so cranky all the time either.

If companies should be obligated to provide certain services or if we need windfall taxes or nat'l healthcare (which I'm not so sure about in either case)...then we need to turn to the gov't for that. Wal-Mart is a business and their primary aim is to make money.

And who funds the government? Individual and business tax revenue. If individuals are unemployed or underpaid, their tax contributions will be less.

And honestly, looking at the price of food around here at Wal-Mart compared to other stores, the money that my family saves on food each year seems to far outweigh whatever portion of our taxes goes to welfare and food stamps for the guy at the checkout.

There's two large store chains I like: Kroger and Costco. Kroger is the largest grocery chain in the U.S.--and it's labor is unionized. Like Wal-Mart, Kroger is so large that it suppresses grocery prices by negotiating bulk purchases, and tends to drive the competition out of business. But, with it's labor being well-paid with good benefits compared to the competition, why would I complain?

The CEO of Costco infuriates its investors by paying its labor very handsomely. And he doesn't care. He knows enough that investors are only out for greed, but believes that a well-paid workforce is an important priority.

If I need things like electronics or DVDs or music or whatever, I buy off of Amazon.com. Not sure what its business climate is like for its workforce, so I can't really comment on whether they're a "good" alternative, but the point is that Wal-Mart isn't the end all of good deals. And, at least with Kroger and Costco, it also shows that you don't have to cheat your workforce to be highly profitable and successful. Both stores continue to grow handsomely.

Melon
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
But it's easy to turn a blind eye, when you are saving a couple of bucks.:|

And, yet, people continue digging their own graves in the process.

Melon
 
This is called Capitalism people. The only reason Wal-Mart is succeeding is because they are offering something that people want at a price people are willing to pay. If it weren't so, they would fail.
 
Zoocoustic said:
This is called Capitalism people. The only reason Wal-Mart is succeeding is because they are offering something that people want at a price people are willing to pay. If it weren't so, they would fail.



so unfettered capitalism is an unquestionably good thing? we are to let it control us, no questions asked?

i always find it interesting when people think capitalism is an organism, or a diety.

capitalism doesn't just happen. there are a lot of very, very smart men in washington dc and new york who are constantly tweaking the system, turning knobs, and pulling strings in order to make it work. it's a human construct, not a natural law.
 
Yeah, Kroger is a pretty good deal...their gas stations are always a few cents cheaper too. :hmm: (I tried to get a summer job though, with no success...I should sue for ageism.)

Sorry, I know you're trying to point to a long-term trend, but isn't our employment around 5%? Hardly enough to spark an Intifada of any sort...

I guess I just have trouble blaming a company for paying just above minimum wage when it seems that is sort of the norm in the local service industry (and globalization doesn't help I'd guess). And I have trouble blaming people for shopping at the cheapest store even if it's a big bad corporation.
 
Zoocoustic said:
This is called Capitalism people. The only reason Wal-Mart is succeeding is because they are offering something that people want at a price people are willing to pay. If it weren't so, they would fail.

Corporations are greedy and will take as much as they are allowed (sometimes more, considering the accounting scandals of the last few years). That's why we had something called "regulations." You have to set ground rules, or, otherwise, business would be perfectly happy to go back to the 19th century when millions were living in slum tenements working seven days a week, 16 hour days for little pay.

J.P. Morgan's fortune, when adjusted for inflation, would have made him a trillionaire in today's dollars. So while he had more money than the government much of the time, most of the rest of the country was living in poverty. In fact, for most of you here, you can thank the prosperity of the 20th century on those regulations, which were instituted in the early 20th century and helped create a large middle class. But Americans aren't particularly noted for paying attention during history class, so we're just contented in repeating our mistakes. Enron's energy price gouging in California four years ago was a tactic out of the 1890s, thanks to deregulation.

Melon
 
melon said:
In fact, for most of you here, you can thank the prosperity of the 20th century on those regulations, which were instituted in the early 20th century and helped create a large middle class. But Americans aren't particularly noted for paying attention during history class, so we're just contented in repeating our mistakes.



but Melon, everyone in here got their internet connection and $$$ to buy U2 tickets through their own hard work, elbow grease, and gumption -- and the government just wants to take that away with things like the death tax and the marriage penalty.

it's amazing how many people born on third base think they hit a triple. and those that defend the system most vigorously are usually the most unaware of just how egregously the deck is stacked in their favor.
 
I agree that some degree of regulation is needed. But if Wal-Mart is following these regulations (ie paying just over minimum wage etc), why should they be expected, required according to some people, to do more? Do we need to raise minimum wage? Is Wal-Mart violating any regulations that I'm not aware of?
 
VertigoGal said:
Sorry, I know you're trying to point to a long-term trend, but isn't our employment around 5%? Hardly enough to spark an Intifada of any sort...

Unemployment figure calculation was redefined in the 1980s. The long-term unemployed who no longer collect benefits are assumed to be employed. When I graduated from college and couldn't get a job for nearly a year, I was assumed to be employed.

Secondly, I'm not talking about the present as much as where we're heading. Auto workers contribute a lot to the economy and cutting out 30,000 of them will have a ripple effect on the local economies of these workers when they can no longer buy anything. Let's face it: if you want people to spend, you need to pay them. If you keep on slashing their wages, they will spend less and weaken the economy.

I guess I just have trouble blaming a company for paying just above minimum wage when it seems that is sort of the norm in the local service industry (and globalization doesn't help I'd guess). And I have trouble blaming people for shopping at the cheapest store even if it's a big bad corporation.

Wal-Mart is an easy poster company for all that's wrong in corporate America, but it is certainly just the tip of the iceberg. Much needs to be changed.

Melon
 
Irvine511 said:
but Melon, everyone in here got their internet connection and $$$ to buy U2 tickets through their own hard work, elbow grease, and gumption -- and the government just wants to take that away with things like the death tax and the marriage penalty.

it's amazing how many people born on third base think they hit a triple. and those that defend the system most vigorously are usually the most unaware of just how egregously the deck is stacked in their favor.

You're right. The estate tax only affects those with $2 million or more in assets. The vast majority of people have never been subjected to it. Ever. Now maybe that exemption needed to be raised, particularly in places like New England and California, where real estate prices are becoming astronomical.

The end effect of ending the estate tax, however, is essentially creating a standing aristocracy. The estate tax forced people after about 4 or 5 generations later to start working again--or to, at least, aggressively invest their existing fortunes to increase it. But no longer: now once people get rich, they're family will be arrogantly rich forever, and then we'll be no better than a sultanate.

Melon
 
Irvine511 said:


it's amazing how many people born on third base think they hit a triple. and those that defend the system most vigorously are usually the most unaware of just how egregously the deck is stacked in their favor.

trust me, I do know what you mean. I know a whole lot of people with 4 cars and rich daddies who will vigorously defend completely unregulated capitalism. In particular, I remember a conversation where some rich kid's only argument against a NHS (which could have many legit arguments made against it) was that if poor people could afford medecine we'd have to wait longer in line!

melon: If a lot of things need to be changed, then what? Raising minimum wage? National healthcare? (which we might as well forget about if it'd be as much of a fucking disgrace as the VA) It seems like enforced regulations on where companies put their money would be the only things that would make a difference...you can't expect to change fundamental human character, which is to say greed.

(ps- sorry for asking stupid questions, I know this isn't the most intellectually stimulating conversation for the others of you, but I actually learn crap from these conversations...and children are the future...so...)
 
VertigoGal said:
(ps- sorry for asking stupid questions, I know this isn't the most intellectually stimulating conversation for the others of you, but I actually learn crap from these conversations...and children are the future...so...)

No worries. But I have to sleep, so I'll have to answer the rest of this later. Good night all. :sexywink:

Melon
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Common misconception. There are many products that they sell at price or less to suck consumers in, they will make money in returns and from the witholding of fees like stated above. I've seen many instances first hand. It's the people behind the big blue curtain that they fuck over.

I know they sell things at cost to lure in customers, but that's not how Sam Walton got his business off the ground and turned it into the "evil empire". His essential plan was, sell cheap, sell more. The more volume, the more profits.

I worked for retail and grocery stores that actually sold some things at less than cost to lure people in, it's very common to do so. Maybe Wal Mart does this more often, I wouldn't be surprised. One honest question, why can't they sell a product for whatever the hell they want to sell it for? They paid the cost for it. Perhaps I am missing the larger point.

Anyhow, off of that...

I don't know anything about the fees so I would defer to anyone else on that or trust what you are saying.

On returns, let's say they bought something for $300.00 and sold it for $275.00 to lure in customers. They assume that loss. Now, I am not sure how the return of that product benefits Wal Mart. Let's say a customer returned it, and WM sent it back to the manufacturer, they get a credit for $300, because that's what they paid for it. They don't actually make money off of it. Maybe I am missing the boat somewhere?

If this is true how would this hurt their employees? I ask to know, not as if I am arguing with you or anything.

for the whole thread......

Look, I'm not the PR guy for fucking Wal Mart, I'm just saying in a economic world where really good paying jobs for average people are fleeing the country, why jump on one of the corporations who seems to be trying to do something positive in regard to it.

I know people personally who've worked for Wal Mart and do so to this day. These people have years of experience in grocery, they make a higher wage than any other grocery or retail store could afford them. Why? I dunno, I'm guessing it's becase they make more money than the others. Granted if you are an entry level checker or whatever, you probably start right down near the low end near Minimum. But that's true wherever you go.
 
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melon said:
American culture, in general, is predicated on greed, and as long as the money keeps on coming in, Americans are complacent and cohesive. Once the money runs out, they degenerate into madness.

That´s not a very positive picture of American culture and Americans.
 
VertigoGal said:
I'm willing to bet the thousands of people getting laid off from the GM plant a few miles from here will be shopping at Wal-Mart for a while.


Our GM plant got the axe as well. Between GM and all of the other manufacturing jobs that have left town, there isn't much of a good paying job market for anyone around here. I suppose that's true anywhere in the country these days. Thank you NAFTA.
 
U2DMfan said:
Our GM plant got the axe as well. Between GM and all of the other manufacturing jobs that have left town, there isn't much of a good paying job market for anyone around here. I suppose that's true anywhere in the country these days. Thank you NAFTA.

Funny enough, the South was our "Mexico" in the 1980s. That is, good paying jobs in the North were slashed to open cheaper plants in the Sun Belt. But I guess the greed didn't stop there, and now, 20 years later, I guess Southerners are "overpaid" in the eyes of the bottom line.

And this is just the beginning. Our Republican government won't do anything about it either. In fact, they encourage it. Why do you think they stopped talking about domestic issues and ran an election in 2004 pretty much based on gay bashing and warmongering? Because that's classic electoral scapegoating, and it's been a staple in Appalachian politics for decades. Playing the "morality" card is how they get the "oppressed" to continually elect in their "oppressors" time and time again, and that's why we pretty much have people living in third-world squalor in a first-world nation. All you fine people who reelected Bush were flat out duped.

Melon
 
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A_Wanderer said:
You'll be employing penguins by 2020, low overheads because they get paid in kippers.

That's what robotics are for. Then we can cut out the kippers too.

Melon
 
I understand people shopping there because it's so cheap, I truly do. I have been trying to convince my Mother not to shop there, she doesn't have to but she loves the "thrill" of cheap prices on the few occasions that she shops there. I told her I was going to make her see that movie and maybe that would convince her. She also belongs to Costco.

There are other alternatives though,one being Costco (or some similar warehouse other than Sam's Club) like Sen Kennedy mentioned. A yearly membership there is $40.00 I believe, and some things you buy in bulk can end up being as cheap as Wal Mart. Not everything, but some things. There's also Target of course.

If enough people resused to shop at WalMart, maybe some competitors would do better and other stores would open, and maybe WalMart would be forced to change. I'm certainly no expert in economics so I don't know. But their moral conscience seems to be sorely lacking, maximizing profit at any cost seems to be the only thing that talks to them. There are plenty of discount/off price stores that don't stoop to the level that Wal Mart does.

Did anyone read the info on that site about crime in Wal Mart parking lots? That's an eye opener too.
 
VertigoGal said:


trust me, I do know what you mean. I know a whole lot of people with 4 cars and rich daddies who will vigorously defend completely unregulated capitalism. In particular, I remember a conversation where some rich kid's only argument against a NHS (which could have many legit arguments made against it) was that if poor people could afford medecine we'd have to wait longer in line!

melon: If a lot of things need to be changed, then what? Raising minimum wage? National healthcare? (which we might as well forget about if it'd be as much of a fucking disgrace as the VA) It seems like enforced regulations on where companies put their money would be the only things that would make a difference...you can't expect to change fundamental human character, which is to say greed.

(ps- sorry for asking stupid questions, I know this isn't the most intellectually stimulating conversation for the others of you, but I actually learn crap from these conversations...and children are the future...so...)



keep asking questions!

you're a credit to high schoolers everywhere. so great to see you thinking about these things.
 
U2DMfan said:


I don't know anything about the fees so I would defer to anyone else on that or trust what you are saying.

You can trust me, I've seen architecture firms that WalMart put out of business because of this practice. They asked them to work for them exclusively and then forced them to go under because they wouldn't pay them on time.

U2DMfan said:

On returns, let's say they bought something for $300.00 and sold it for $275.00 to lure in customers. They assume that loss. Now, I am not sure how the return of that product benefits Wal Mart. Let's say a customer returned it, and WM sent it back to the manufacturer, they get a credit for $300, because that's what they paid for it. They don't actually make money off of it. Maybe I am missing the boat somewhere?

They charge companies for mark downs. They're called TPRs (temporary price reductions), which many companies do, but WalMart will charge the company then turn around and return the product to the company for a guarantee return. So they will actually make a profit. They'll do this to companies who have more than one product on their shelves and want to keep their shelf space.
 
melon said:
Our Republican government won't do anything about it either. In fact, they encourage it. Why do you think they stopped talking about domestic issues and ran an election in 2004 pretty much based on gay bashing and warmongering?

I love how you see a thread about Walmart as a chance to accuse conservatives of gay bashing and warmongering.
 
Bluer White said:
I love how you see a thread about Walmart as a chance to accuse conservatives of gay bashing and warmongering.

Oh please. Who is pushing for the anti-gay "Defense of Marriage Act" amendments in every state? Republicans. Who blocks gay rights legislation from even making it out of committee in Congress? Republicans. Which party in the 2004 election made sure to parade around how anti-gay they are in every campaign ad? Republicans. Which party still pushes for a federal anti-gay marriage amendment? Republicans. Which party interprets those amendments as a way to deny any and all gay rights and benefits? Republicans.

Fuck Republicans. And fuck Wal-Mart. But it is true that these "morality issues" are merely ways to divert the average American idiot's attention from the real issues and problems. The constant "terror alerts" were starting to become ineffective. Notice how we haven't heard of that at all in over a year?

Melon
 
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