W. Viriginia town in shock with news 12 miners dead, not alive

[XHendrix24]

is this what happens when coal executives spend lots of money on Republican politicians? looser regulatory and safety regimes? at what cost? how many lives must big business shatter?

Seriously, man. This isn't the time nor the place for that.

I still can't believe something like this happened. I can hardly imagine the grief that the families of the victims have gone through.

 

[indra]

You're 2 for 2 on this story already, taking shots at Christianity (in your journal) and Republicans here.

If you are secure in your belief/views why do you care?

Christians take shots at non-christians all the time and Republicans take shots at Dems and others too. What's the diff?

Seriously, man. This isn't the time nor the place for that.

So when is the right time? There are other coal mines, other miners -- still working, most likely in similar conditions. So every day we say it's not the "right" time is another day these people work in potentially fatal conditions. All because no one wants to talk about it right now.

The best way to honour these men is to make damned sure as few of their fellow miners have to die the same death as possible. And that means talking and thinking about it and coming up with and implementing solutions (and punishments if those solutions are skirted).

 

[A_Wanderer]

Perhaps an investigation into what caused the collapse, an assesment of the safety procedures and see if they were properly enacted or even had a chance too would prove a better time to allocate blame. Until all the facts are established throwing blame around is moot (for instance the tube shooting and those that took the official story hook line and sinker and said he deserved it).

 

[JCOSTER]

My heart genuinly feels for these families and the miners that have passed. Lets all hope and pray that the miners have reached a better place and that prayer and faith with help the grieving families.

It is unbelievable to me that in this day and age of technology that there is not another way to get coal....other than sending men down into the belly of the earth.

Government should really hamper down on these situations and make sure it is the safest envirnoment they can possibly have; considering it is one of our and the worlds greatest resources.

Such a tragic loss right after Christmas and New Years.

 

[wizard2c]

reply

Perhaps an investigation into what caused the collapse, an assesment of the safety procedures and see if they were properly enacted or even had a chance too would prove a better time to allocate blame. Until all the facts are established throwing blame around is moot (for instance the tube shooting and those that took the official story hook line and sinker and said he deserved it).

Does anything ever come out of an investigation which would probably take years.....in the interim???

 

[Irvine511]

Ah, yes. Back to the childish pictures. Perhaps we can move beyond the hyperbole, the cliche arguments and political talking points and actually discuss the facts of the issue.

You're 2 for 2 on this story already, taking shots at Christianity (in your journal) and Republicans here.

firstly, if you don't like my journal, don't read it. to bring the contents of that into this thread in order to make a point is pretty pathetic. i know you can do better, i do wish you'd try.

i'd also like to know what the cliches are -- or is it anything that doesn't agree with you by definition cliche and "shots" at someone or something? if you'd like, i can go through your top 5 responses to nearly any and all topics. i think you'd find that you're every bit as repetitive and cliched as anyone else.

secondly, go back and read the article. then get back to me.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Umm, can I step in between you two and ask for a time-out? If you have personal issues to discuss perhaps you can take it to PMs. In any case, bringing in what is posted in journals would seem to be irrelevant to what goes on in the forum.

Thanks.

 

[Irvine511]

the essential point remains -- republicans have a long history of being friendly to business, and much of that has been couched on the easing of rules and regulations for all kinds of industry, from environmental regulations to safety regulations. businesses like this because it helps their bottom line. yet, one of the many results of such "pro-business" legislation is that our environment becomes more contaminated and things become measurably less safe -- from the standard of drinking water to safety in mines.

i'm not suggestion causation, but i am pointing out a correlatory. i feel it's perfectly valid, and perfectly fit for discussion.

my journal, however, isn't.

 

[indra]

Perhaps an investigation into what caused the collapse, an assesment of the safety procedures and see if they were properly enacted or even had a chance too would prove a better time to allocate blame. Until all the facts are established throwing blame around is moot (for instance the tube shooting and those that took the official story hook line and sinker and said he deserved it).

Agreed. And to conduct an investigation people have to be willing to talk about and think about what went wrong. Because the longer people wait because it isn't the "right" time, the more potential there is for more occurrences such as this.

 

[nbcrusader]

Agreed. And to conduct an investigation people have to be willing to talk about and think about what went wrong. Because the longer people wait because it isn't the "right" time, the more potential there is for more occurrences such as this.

Our lack of patience as a society is clearly seen in this case. The emotional nightmare experienced by the families was a direct result of eagerness to pass on any news without verification. We've already heard about the safety violations, but have no clear evidence that the violations led to the accident. Yet, the rush to demonize big business cannot be abated.

 

[nbcrusader]

Umm, can I step in between you two and ask for a time-out? If you have personal issues to discuss perhaps you can take it to PMs. In any case, bringing in what is posted in journals would seem to be irrelevant to what goes on in the forum.

Thanks.

Fair enough on the journals.

I was hoping we wouldn't continue to see thread derailed on the same few points. Especially, without any factual connections.

 

[Irvine511]

derailed?

try harder.

 

[indra]

Our lack of patience as a society is clearly seen in this case. The emotional nightmare experienced by the families was a direct result of eagerness to pass on any news without verification. We've already heard about the safety violations, but have no clear evidence that the violations led to the accident. Yet, the rush to demonize big business cannot be abated.

Actually the emotional nightmare experienced by the families was caused by the deaths of their loved ones. The misinformation caused additional heartache, but the thing that caused the heartache had already occurred.

 

[VertigoGal]

I think it's a bit early to blame the Republican party for this.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

In regards to the picture MrsSpringsteen posted with the paper headlines-at work tonight, our local paper had a similar headline. Even worse considering that this local paper comes out in the afternoon. This news hit late last night...you'd think they would've tried to change it this morning. At any rate, I feel sorry for anyone who's going to have to do some serious editing for tomorrow's papers...

As for who's responsible here, I see what both sides say about it all, but at the same time...indra is right, it's time for people on both sides to get really serious about making sure this sort of thing never happens again.

The town I live in is full of miners, too...needless to say, this story hit them particularly hard-they're already setting up donations in place and stuff to help the families of those who perished.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

I think it's a bit early to blame the Republican party for this.

The simple, elegant version of a point I was trying to make.

 

[Dreadsox]

I have been in NJ outside of Philadelphia for the last few days burrying my grandmother. The news story broke on this and many of us in the family spent a good deal of time praying for these people. We went to bed after the funeral thinking a miracle had occured and these people were alive. It was actually a perfect ending to a long day.

Yesterday when I woke up to find the story wrong I was upset to learn that something different had happened. However a miracle still occured. Someone is still alive fighting for their life.

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As for the politics in this thread, I would only say that I was pretty disgusted with the Katrina politics in here, and it is disappointing to see it flare up. So many facts were thrown around in here that now appear to be completely false, yet during the crisis appeared to be true.

Can we take a step back and just breath before making yet another trajedy into a flame war in here?

 

[Irvine511]

The simple, elegant version of a point I was trying to make.

yes, but it's more fun to take shots directly at me.

i'm just getting warmed up.

mine safety is a major issue, and what's been going on since 2001 is just starting to come to the surface.

as for the similarities between this and katrina, let's avoid a misunderstanding at the outset for those more literal minded -- no one is saying that George Bush killed coal miners, or that George Bush created the fiasco at the superdome or blew up the levees. but what Katrina revealed was the fact that we have a massive problem with an enormous, and largely african-american, underclass in this country who don't seem to have any sort of political consequence. this could lead into a whole discussion on the current tax structure since 2001, but that's a bit too much for this thread ... and what this disaster is revealing is the fact that coal mining is exceedingly dangerous (and the fact that it's virtually the only decent paying job in the region if you don't have a college degree, so if you have a wife and kids, what choice do you really have?), and that safety inspections and regulations don't always do their jobs. why? where is it coming short? shit does happen, but how do we equip people to respond when shit happens? what can we do better? are we doing as much to safeguard the safety of miners as we have in the past?

what i am saying, and i think this is really rather hard to dispute, is that when a political party obsessed with deregulation and the dismantling of health, environmental, and safety standards comes to power, the safety of the planet and the safety of those who work in such positions decreases.

this also ties into the Abramhoff scandal, but that's another can of worms.

i think we're all better off, yes, as Dread said, taking a deep breath; but we shouldn't shy away from discussing an issue, speculating, drawing connections, connecting dots, and trying to gain a better understanding of both the state of safety of coal mining in this country -- and in general ... every year, thousands upon thousands of chinese coal miners die, and we never hear about it -- and the state of this particular mine.

if we don't ask questions and make links, we'll never learn anything and we'll never get anywhere and more people will die. were these particular deaths preventable? we don't know. are potential future mining deaths preventable? you bet your ass they are. so let's start asking questions, and not bash those who do.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Can we take a step back and just breath before making yet another trajedy into a flame war in here?

That would be nice, wouldn't it? But no, some people can't seem to do it. There always seems to be an agenda behind anything and everything. I've seen it myself with so many threads I have posted that I thought would have NO remote possibility of that- yet voila, it happened. It's sad and frankly annoying.

Sorry sula. And if anyone wants to attack me for what I said, so be it I suppose.