Violated from a doublestandard created by society

[z edge]

First, let me say I was hesistant to post this.

Second, it is true, so if it happened to me then it must happen to a lot of other people who never say anything of it.

Third, this does not change my beliefs on homosexuality.

And finally, this is a topic that has been posted in here a lot, but I have never seen what happened to me ever mentioned.


Last weekend, my neighbors threw another party which I attended, and there were a lot of people there to include a few other neighbors. There was a guy there from around the block whom I have ran into in passing and I met this guy briefly at the party.

After the party finished and everyone went home or wherever, I went home and decided to pop in the Boston elevation video. I went out for a smoke when I seen the guy from around the block lurking in front of my house. I recognized him, and asked him if he wanted a beer and if he'd like to check this video out real quick. He came in and seemed to enjoy the video and I thought everything was cool.

I must say that I was pretty drunk, but I am pretty friendly with everyone and didn't think anything of this at the time. I'd seen the guy before and knew of him so I didn't think he was a threat to me. Bad judgement though.

I became aware of him staring at me constantly and asking me odd personal questions. He then decides to announce that he was gay, and that he was very attracted to me. I tell him that I am straight, and try to take the focus off of me and ask him about himself and his hobbies. I even point out that Bono/U2 were very supportive of all people; gay, straight, white, black, pink, whatever.

Long story short, this guy persists. After going in detail on how he likes to prey on unsuspecting college boys, he then tells me he likes "straight jocks" and enjoys going to the gym with them and the locker room, etc. Then he asks me if I go to gay clubs and why I didn't have a girl there with me. And finally asks me if he can "do things" to me (perform oral sex). Oh yeah, he even asks me if I would strip for him.

This is where I am feeling violated, uncomfortable in my own freaking house because I let him in and he took advantage of my hospitality and used it against me. I politely booted him out, but I still feel strange about it. Strange because of how he pursued me when I made it obvious to him I wasn't interested. Strange because I have to drive by his house everday. Strange because I might run into him at the little gas station on the corner that he hangs out at for some strange reason.

Why did he do this? Why has this happened to me before, several times though not to the same extent. I do not try to act like a gay/bisexual man, or someone that lives that lifestyle. I may be friendly to everyone and understanding overall, but thats not an open invitation to anyone to say these things to me.

My other dilema here is that this is very unfair on two fronts:

1. If a guy like me were to do the same thing to a girl (tell her I want her to strip for me and give her oral pleasure) under these same circumstances then I would be in fucking jail and probably be facing criminal charges or daddy's shotgun or something.

2. This has happened to me before, and I wonder how many other people this has happened to? I would say that I do not hold this as a stereotype against gays/bisexuals, but it has happened to me enough to cause suspicion.

My point here is that I wonder if this occurs but is never reported because of shame, like the same reason I won't go around telling all of my buddies about it. Or if it is reported to authorities, then it is just "laughed off" and dropped. And if so why?


Is it a problem society has created, a little catch-22 to try and make up for how terrible we have treated gays as a whole in the past?

 

[melon]

z edge, welcome to the hell that many women have to endure from society from overzealous straight men. It is not a gay thing, nor is it a straight thing. For some reason, it is a male thing, but something that not all males do. The guy is an obvious asshole, and there are plenty on both sides of the fence.

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

 

[Gina Marie]

First of all-what Melon said is right on. Though I can't say anything quite that extreme has ever happened to me.I'd be upset by it and unable to cope w/it as well as you did.

It is not in ANY WAY your fault that this happened. This is about HIM, not you. This person violated your boundaries and your trust. And this is such an honest post that you wrote, and I hope, reading the way this forum goes sometimes, that no one will treat it otherwise.

I'm sure you'd feel the same way if it was a woman and not a guy-maybe that's the most important issue here. I'm just sorry this happened to you-but this guy is obviously not representative of all gay men by any stretch of the imagination.

I know from experience how tough it is to do, but you can't let a few people who will try to take advantage of you like that change the kind of person you are, or your attitude towards gay men as a whole.

And I know that this kind of thing happens to women and it goes unreported. It seems like so many people have no sense of what is appropriate/inappropriate behavior, especially regarding sexual matters. I know I constantly have my guard up because of that.

I don't really know what else to say, and what I said was probably not helpful anyway. But thanks for being so honest in posting this.

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Brother Edge-
Ive had uncomfortable encounters like this.
And believe it or not later upon contemplation, Ive silently said to myself precisely what Melon said re-(overly aggresive men hitting on women to a fault)..
"Oh so this is how it must feel to be an attractive woman,".-bearing in mind that they get hit on 20 times a week and us not to often and very very inoften by a clueless gay man.

Hope this make sense.
Your brother-

D
B
9

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by melon:
z edge, welcome to the hell that many women have to endure from society from overzealous straight men. It is not a gay thing, nor is it a straight thing. For some reason, it is a male thing, but something that not all males do. The guy is an obvious asshole, and there are plenty on both sides of the fence.

Melon

Melon, I did not mean to insinuate that I went through hell or anything like that. Half of the problem- if you would read my entire post- lies in the fact that this can go on without any type of reproach in this instance.

Like I said, If I (or any guy) tried this crap on a woman then we would be in jail. If this were to happen in the workplace, there would be firings, lawsuits, and the person(s) involved would have marks on their records for life.

I see you are trying too quickly to point out that this is an issue that seems that involves mainly overzealous men. I wonder how many times this happens involving a man and an overzealous woman. Once again, never reported or swept under the rug.

 

[U2Bama]

No means no.

 

[z edge]

Of course Melon is right, this is not how all homosexual people act. I should correct my post to clarify that I DO NOT stereotype homosexuals to this behavior, because after re-reading it it does not look as clear cut as I intended it.

Diamond,
There is a big difference between a woman being hit on 20 times a week and her unsuspectingly letting a man in her house who tries this kind of crap.

I am a big boy and can take care of myself, so I don't believe I was in any real danger. Or am I still? There's no telling what this asshole is capable of.

 

[Lilly]

Originally posted by melon:
z edge, welcome to the hell that many women have to endure from society from overzealous straight men.
Melon

Melon, again, I agree with you.

z edge, as a female, I notice more how men can be a bit more 'agressive' with their tactics than women, who tend to be more 'coy.' Most men understand a rather forceful 'no.' But, when they don't, you're right, it does get really uncomfortable.

From experience, I can guarantee it has happened before (men being forceful that is). It's not fun and it isn't taken too seriously by authorities unless something has already happened (i.e something physical that can be seen, not just "he thouched me"). What's unfortunate and at the same time fortunate is that the police can't take your word for it. If you say so and so is being aggressive toward you, you need to have hard evidence to back it up, it's not a light matter at all.

It's not a problem society has created, and it's not homosexuals trying to 'get back' at heterosexuals. It's a male thing (I suppose females are like this too, so I'll say it's a human thing).



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"Just tell 'em what they wanna hear & nobody will complain."

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by Lilly:


It's not a problem society has created, and it's not homosexuals trying to 'get back' at heterosexuals. It's a male thing (I suppose females are like this too, so I'll say it's a human thing).

I disagree, I believe it is a problem created by society over guilt of horrible treatment of homosexuals in the past (and still present).

Why do I believe this? Because I know there are some similair stories involving two women out there, and some may end up here.

I refuse to believe it's only men who do this.

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Poor
Brother
Edge.

D
B
9

 

[Discoteque]

I agree with Melon as well...women have to put up with things like that (subtle or obvious, it doesn't matter). I've had men hit on me, AND gay women, and I tho I managed to extricate myself from these situations (well, almost, like Z, the couple of gay women that once hit on me wouldn't take "no" or "I'm straight" for an answer), it's very pervasive. Nearly all my friends at one time or another have been sexually harassed by a neighbor or co-worker. Sad sad sad. I guess I can't understand the mindset of someone who does that, I mean, how tacky and tawdy and low can you get?

Z, sorry to hear about your particular situation...it sure makes things uncomfortable, esp. if you know you'll see the guy again....

At least if it happens in an office you might have some recourse with your HR dept....

Originally posted by melon:
z edge, welcome to the hell that many women have to endure from society from overzealous straight men. It is not a gay thing, nor is it a straight thing. For some reason, it is a male thing, but something that not all males do. The guy is an obvious asshole, and there are plenty on both sides of the fence.

Melon

 

[Bbug]

It's not a homosexual thing. I have gay and lesbian friends and they've met their SOs the same way everyone else does, clubs, school, whatever, but they don't run around assaulting people. They're not bitter about society, they just live their lives.
Also, I'm nineteen and a girl and I get hit on by creepy guys like ALL the time. At work, at school, in metro stations, etc. It's not even an attractive woman thing, because I'm not that pretty, it's just a creep thing. They make incredibly sick comments. And there's not a lot you can really do about it, really, because if you're walking through a crowded subway station and some perv you pass comments on how he'd like to see dirty pictures of you, I mean, it's not like you got a good look at him or know exactly where he went or whatever. You just try and avoid them and stand near those call box things. I also have friends who were really harrassed at work, like their first jobs, by older married men and were scared out of their minds to report them to anyone because they didn't think they'd be believed. I mean, it happens all the time and is really underreported. I really do think that you now sort of know what it feels like to be a girl. Anyway, I would NEVER let anyone I didn't know really well into my house if I were alone, especially at night, especially if they were sort of lurking around outside, drunk, or otherwise behaving oddly. I think it's just sort of a good rule to have, regardless of sex or age or whatever. And please know that he does NOT represent the gay population with his behaviour. There are lots of straight predators too...I'm sorry he did that to you but please don't let it make you think that all homosexuals behave in the same way. They don't.

 

[Lilly]

Originally posted by z edge:
I disagree, I believe it is a problem created by society over guilt of horrible treatment of homosexuals in the past (and still present).

Why do I believe this? Because I know there are some similair stories involving two women out there, and some may end up here.

I refuse to believe it's only men who do this.

Z: That's precisely why I said (I suppose females are like this too, so I'll say it's a human thing). at the end there. I say it's a male thing because that's what happens (happened) to me, men being too forceful with me or just not taking no for an answer. I'm positive women are like that too, I'm not doubting you there. But I don't think that homosexuals have some sort of vendetta against heterosexuals. At least all of the homosexuals I know don't....

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"Just tell 'em what they wanna hear & nobody will complain."

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by Lilly:
Z: That's precisely why I said (I suppose females are like this too, so I'll say it's a human thing). at the end there. I say it's a male thing because that's what happens (happened) to me, men being too forceful with me or just not taking no for an answer. I'm positive women are like that too, I'm not doubting you there. But I don't think that homosexuals have some sort of vendetta against heterosexuals. At least all of the homosexuals I know don't....

No, I didn't mean that either. What I meant was, that they can get away with it more than a straight guy harassing a woman could. My reasoning was because it would go unreported and if it was it would probably just go unpunished, both for the reason of guilt and embarassment.

I believe if a guy were to pull this crap on a woman in her house, she could have him thrown in jail and he'd be in big trouble.

 

[Lilly]

Originally posted by z edge:

No, I didn't mean that either. What I meant was, that they can get away with it more than a straight guy harassing a woman could. My reasoning was because it would go unreported and if it was it would probably just go unpunished, both for the reason of guilt and embarassment.

I believe if a guy were to pull this crap on a woman in her house, she could have him thrown in jail and he'd be in big trouble.

oic, that makes more sense than trying to say they have a vendetta. Thanks for the clarification.

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"Just tell 'em what they wanna hear & nobody will complain."

 

[Angela Harlem]

Z edge clearly you are not opposed to anyone's sexual preference. And like you point out, it is a bit of a rare occurance when it is put in the ratio of hetero men hitting on hetero women. I dont really see it as any different due to the sexuality that the individual has, like you ie gay straight. Its a horrible thing that we sometimes have to deal with and the gender of choice makes it no easier.

I guess the point I'm wondering about is like you said, you were made to feel like this in your own home. The guy sitting on your chouch could have easily swapped the "I am gay" line for "I have a gun in my back pocket". Its so unfortunate that we get into situations where our personal space in invaded. What is also unfortunate is when we cant speak up about it. Situations like this can lead to 2 things. People might brand you Z Edge as a homophobe. We all know that isn't the case. And it can also work the other way where people jump to the conclusion that gay men practice this often. Again, not the case. Anyway, like melon said, it works the same way for any gender and sexual preference. I hope you dont stay bothered for too long matie. We can be unwittingly meeting freaks on any street corner or at the gas station when we fill up. We never know who we could be trusting into our homes.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Originally posted by z edge:
No, I didn't mean that either. What I meant was, that they can get away with it more than a straight guy harassing a woman could. My reasoning was because it would go unreported and if it was it would probably just go unpunished, both for the reason of guilt and embarassment.

I believe if a guy were to pull this crap on a woman in her house, she could have him thrown in jail and he'd be in big trouble.

I can understand what you're saying, people are most likely to be unwilling to report being harassed by a lesbian or gay person of the same sex as they. And that does often happen because the person who experiences it feels ashamed or wrongly believes they could have done something to prevent it. However, a woman being harassed by a man is just as likely to feel those misplaced feelings of guilt or shame. Society has stereotypes about that too - he's "just being a normal guy" or "look at the way she dresses!" "she was asking for it" etc.

This isn't meant as a criticism, but I think you overestimate the seriousness with which men sexually harassing women is treated. At my first job one of my employers used to make suggestive comments to me all the time, he'd try to get me alone so he could elaborate on them or try other things. I didn't tell anyone because I assumed I wouldn't be believed or I thought I must have done something to give him the idea I was interested in him. After I left the job I found out that he'd done the same thing to another woman who worked there and she'd left the job after a few months because she was so afraid of him yet didn't feel able to tell anyone. Many people knew about his behaviour and yet he was never confronted about it. People still have those underlying assumptions that it's just something men do, or that the woman has done something to deserve it. Someone I know went to the police to report that her boyfriend had raped her - their response was that while they had to investigate if she wanted them to, they thought it was pointless because she'd slept with him willingly before and there was no way to prove she'd been raped. I guess by that logic if you've given money away before then it's okay if someone robs you.

None of this is meant to undermine what you said or say that the way that man behaved towards you was acceptable. I agree that there are many reasons for such behaviour to go unpunished but I believe there are just as many reasons for similar behaviour by a man against a woman to go unreported and unpunished.

*Fizz

 

[speedracer]

Lilly, if you're going to continue to post in this thread, you probably should change your sig...

 

[80sU2isBest]

I've been harassed by a male and a female, both at work, and both instances bugged the crap outta me.
Once, when I worked at a movie theater, one of my co-workers pinched my butt, with customers around. She was an attractive girl, so I guess she thought I'd think it was "cute" or "funny", but I didn't. Not at all. It was embarassing as all get out. And I let her know about it after the customers cleared out.
Then, when I worked at a restaraunt, one of the male dishwashers pinched my butt when I was in the back. No customers were around, so I told him about it right then when it happened.
I have never harassed male or female in my life. But I do know how women feel now. It's repulsive, no matter who does it to you.

 

[YellowKite]

Originally posted by z edge:I believe if a guy were to pull this crap on a woman in her house, she could have him thrown in jail and he'd be in big trouble.

Women have learned by and large that you are not safe, even in your own home, if someone wants to get to you. A woman would have never ever invited a stanger into her home under those circumstances. A lesson learned after decades of attacks. Unfortunatley, you had that same lesson taught first hand.

[This message has been edited by YellowKite (edited 04-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by YellowKite (edited 04-04-2002).]

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

z- sorry to hear this happened, dude. I think it's important to recognize that this is significantly different than being hit on at on the street or at a bar or something. This was you and one other person in your home, and this guy was getting explicit. That is a really freaky situation. And you're right that this does happen to other guys. Two of my good friends have found themselves in very similar situations. One friend it happened at his own apartment, almost the exact situation you were in. The other was a friend who had gone to another guys place, he thought just to hang out. This guy had other ideas. It really freaked him out and he didn't tell me about it til 2 years later. Anyway, it sucks that this stuff happens to men and women. Unfortunately, it seems like this kind of thing, happening to men or women, goes unpunished most of the time. If something like this happened at work, something could probably be done about it. But in someone's home, if it's only words that are exchanged, I think nothing gets done about it, regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the offender.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by z edge:
[B
1. If a guy like me were to do the same thing to a girl (tell her I want her to strip for me and give her oral pleasure) under these same circumstances then I would be in fucking jail and probably be facing criminal charges or daddy's shotgun or something.
[/B]

This is not true at all, my friend. As Fizzing said, "I think you overestimate the seriousness with which men sexually harassing women is treated." Rarely would anyone face charges for aggressively hitting on anyone else. Rape is not even taken seriously in this country, let alone hitting on somebody. According to the 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, only 1 in 20 actual rapists will ever spend a day in jail. The other 19 are back on the streets.

I am sorry this happened to you and you have a right to feel violated. But I also agree with Melon and the others...this happens to women everyday. One in six women (about 17.7 million women) in this country are sexually assaulted at some time in their life. The stat for men is about 3% (2.78 million men). Very, very little is done about it.

I have never, ever been hit on by a woman in my entire life though I have as many lesbian friends as straight friends--maybe more even--whereas I am hit on or verbally assaulted almost everyday by a man.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
z- sorry to hear this happened, dude. I think it's important to recognize that this is significantly different than being hit on at on the street or at a bar or something. This was you and one other person in your home, and this guy was getting explicit.

Four out of ten sexual assaults take place in the victim's home. Approximately 62% of female victims know their assailant. I don't know what the stats are for men, but the point being, most sexual assaults happen at home with someone you know.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

joyfulgirl, I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that this situation was unique because it happened in his home. I was just trying to make the point that this situation would likely have a bigger effect on someone than a situation where you're hit on by someone passing you on the street or at a party or bar. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but that's what I was trying to say.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
joyfulgirl, I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that this situation was unique because it happened in his home. I was just trying to make the point that this situation would likely have a bigger effect on someone than a situation where you're hit on by someone passing you on the street or at a party or bar. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but that's what I was trying to say.

Yes, I understand and I agree with you--I wasn't criticizing your post at all, just pointing out that, in fact, most sexual assaults do occur in one's home, for whatever that's worth here. I just find it interesting, I guess, when I see a statistic validated, although I wish all the sexual assault stats were wrong because they are so depressing.

[edit] I also want to add that I'm not saying that z edge was sexually assaulted according to whatever the legal definition of that is, but he felt violated and that's why I'm using sexual assault stats--because we don't really have stats for what happened to z edge, but what we do have demonstrates that there is something terribly wrong in this country regarding sexuality, sex crimes, how sex crimes are treated, etc.[/edit]

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 04-04-2002).]

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Z Edge-
I love you like a brother but this is a tiny bit funny.
Be good.
Next time try not to look so sexy for a freak-jk.

Diamond

 

[Salome]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
No means no.

I like short replies like this one


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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[Gina Marie]

Normally I would just ignore what you said Diamond-but there is nothing remotely 'funny' about this.

I figured sooner or later someone would make a comment like that. Sorry, but your attempt at 'humor' is not, in my opinion, appropriate.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
Yes, I understand and I agree with you--I wasn't criticizing your post at all, just pointing out that, in fact, most sexual assaults do occur in one's home, for whatever that's worth here. I just find it interesting, I guess, when I see a statistic validated, although I wish all the sexual assault stats were wrong because they are so depressing.

[edit] I also want to add that I'm not saying that z edge was sexually assaulted according to whatever the legal definition of that is, but he felt violated and that's why I'm using sexual assault stats--because we don't really have stats for what happened to z edge, but what we do have demonstrates that there is something terribly wrong in this country regarding sexuality, sex crimes, how sex crimes are treated, etc.[/edit]

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 04-04-2002).]

 

[oliveu2cm]

Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
Ive silently said to myself precisely what Melon said re-(overly aggresive men hitting on women to a fault)..
"Oh so this is how it must feel to be an attractive woman,".-bearing in mind that they get hit on 20 times a week and us not to often and very very inoften by a clueless gay man.

I just wanted to clarify this is not true at all. A woman being attractive makes NO difference to the amount they recieve unwanted attention. Being a woman is enough reason to be hit on by any drunk or obnoxious boy/man who thinks he was born with a pass in his hand that lets him get away with shit, doesn't matter what you're wearing, how tall short you are, what your bra shoe shirt skirt size is.

z edge- sorry this happened to you. What an uncomfortable, unnecessary, and unacceptable position for him to put you in. The fact that things like this go unchallenged gives these people more confidence/assertion to do it again. You handled it well- telling him straight out you were NOT comfortable with this, and it was NOT acceptable to you, which is what anyone should do.


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She never really belonged to me

U2 Take Me Higher