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Old 11-16-2004, 11:21 AM   #1
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US soldier kills wounded Iraqi

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. Marines rallied round a comrade under investigation for killing a wounded Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances.

Marines interviewed on Tuesday said they didn't see the shooting as a scandal, rather the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.

"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

The military command launched an investigation after video footage showed a U.S. Marine shooting a wounded and unarmed man in a mosque in the city on Saturday. The man was one of five wounded and left in the mosque after Marines fought their way through the area.

A pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it, killing 10 militants and wounding the five. Sites said the wounded had been left for others to pick up.

A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be close to death, Sites said.

He said a Marine noticed one prisoner was still breathing.

A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's f***ing faking he's dead."

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head," Sites said.

NBC said the Marine, who had reportedly been shot in the face himself the previous day, said immediately after the shooting: "Well, he's dead now."

link

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Now before you all say the insurgent was a threat I would suggest you look at pictures of the incident. Be aware I am not posting it here because it may be offensive to some.

link to photos
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:30 AM   #2
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Re: US soldier kills wounded Iraqi

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Originally posted by sharky
The military command launched an investigation after video footage showed a U.S. Marine shooting a wounded and unarmed man in a mosque in the city on Saturday. The man was one of five wounded and left in the mosque after Marines fought their way through the area.

This is what concerns me--how could he have been a threat to the safety and security of the Marines there if he was already wounded and unarmed? Why would they kill a wounded, unarmed man? I mean, it's one thing if he's running at you with his rifle all ready to go, but to shoot--and shoot to kill--when the man is already down...
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:41 AM   #3
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I think this is awful, but it's hard for me to condemn this soldier outright. I don't know if I could hold my shit together in those circumstances. While I think the investigation and appropriate punishment is justified, I also think a good deal of the blame needs to go to the decision makers who put him there, with no real objective and without the support he needs to make his job less dangerous.
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Old 11-16-2004, 12:20 PM   #4
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They actually showed the footage on the Dutch news. Very shocking... It was absolutely awful, but strannix has got a point as well.
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:02 PM   #5
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It requires a full investigation, the blame does not always lie up the chain of command and I think it is very dodgy the way that some would blame Bush for everything that goes on. In defence men who pretend to be dead my be feigning in order to take out a soldier when he checks the "corpse", it happened in WWII with the Japs and it may well be happening now.
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Old 11-16-2004, 02:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It requires a full investigation, the blame does not always lie up the chain of command and I think it is very dodgy the way that some would blame Bush for everything that goes on. In defence men who pretend to be dead my be feigning in order to take out a soldier when he checks the "corpse", it happened in WWII with the Japs and it may well be happening now.
I agree but not with the words you used; these insurgents are willing to die and for them to lay atop a satchel charge just waiting to be turned over would be one step closer to their Glory, those assholes live and die for their cause!

Forget it! our boys can't take that chance...war is hell ladies; people get hurt and killed, that's the nature of the business...am I in favor of the war? hell no...

Am I all for keeping our men and women alive, at all costs, yes I am!!! let's not condemn this Marine until all the facts are in. Our servicemen are under stress 24/7, bullets flying...something is bound to happen.

Do I know what its like to have a bullet flying toward you, damn straight...once in a lifetime was enough for me, these men and women are getting it everyday...God Bless the USA but let's end this war before its really too late...
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Old 11-16-2004, 02:16 PM   #7
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Old 11-16-2004, 02:48 PM   #8
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On one hand I sympathize with the Marine. War does an awful number on a man’s nerves and psyche. I would be pretty trigger happy and jumpy after months of Iraq too.

On the other hand this is the sort of thing that can not go on. This is what gives the middle east greater reason to hate us. It was wrong.

Hard call to make.
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Old 11-16-2004, 05:56 PM   #9
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Some of the marines killed this past week were killed because of wounded insurgents pretending they were dead. This marine sees that one of these assholes is still alive and he has a few seconds to decide wether he may live or die..what do you think he would do? The war on terror is a crazy and dog eat dog war..these people don't play by the rules, their only mission is to kill us and our troops!

The media has become an ememy because of all their excessive critical coverage over this. We already know what happens if foootage or pictures of our troops hurting middle easterners is released becuase of the prisoner abuse scandel..all it does is piss off these barbarians and gives them a reason to go get some of our people to behead.
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Old 11-16-2004, 06:40 PM   #10
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Unfortunately, this is the only coverage we get to see. We will never see footage of the Marines platoon member being blown to bits the day before by the insurgent pretending to be dead w/grenade. The simple fact is that if he is guilty, he will be punished according the UCMJ. His actions will be scrutinized. This has already in process for several soldiers in the 1st cav.
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Old 11-16-2004, 08:15 PM   #11
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Did any of you not read the story? These were insurgents that were unarmed because they had been wounded and then left by Marines who are disarmed these men for further medical assistance to follow. I can't understand the stress these guys are under but they are soldiers -- they should be trained to handle stress and they should be evaluated before going back out after something like an incident this soldier had been through.
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:50 PM   #12
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There will probably be protests in the streets of San Fran and NY about this one. Heck, this guy may even make it into Michael Moore's next film. But nobody will protest the beheading of Margaret Hassan, right? Nobody will protest the 'legacy' of Yassar Arafat.

This stuff upsets my stomach.
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:04 AM   #13
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wolfwill: All of the stuff you mention upsets my stomach, believe me! The beheading of hostages is sickening! U.S. soldiers dying there makes me sick as well.

The footage I saw on tv almost made me want to throw up. I can't even begin to imagine what the soldiers go through, but that's the case on both sides...
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Old 11-17-2004, 07:21 AM   #14
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It is under investigation by the military. Appropriate steps will be taken.


I don't envy anyone who will be part of this process. It sure is more comfy here behind the computer.
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
Did any of you not read the story? These were insurgents that were unarmed because they had been wounded and then left by Marines who are disarmed these men for further medical assistance to follow. I can't understand the stress these guys are under but they are soldiers -- they should be trained to handle stress and they should be evaluated before going back out after something like an incident this soldier had been through.
an email from a Marine in the 11th MEU:

This is one story of many that people normally don't hear, and one that everyone does.

This is one most don't hear:
A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with Ak-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly wounded, lying in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent setting off several pounds of explosives.


The Marines' remains are gathered by teary eyed comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families can only mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short by someone who hid behind a white flag.


But no one hears these stories, except those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.


This is the story everyone hears:


A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insugent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly wounded. Suddenly, he pulls from under his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the room, killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches shrapnel in the face.


The next day, same Marine, same type of situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!"


The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now dead. Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and the Marine is being held for commiting a war crime. Unlawful killing.


And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the stake for protecting the life of his brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, i too would have done the same.


For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers, Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is right, or think
it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children, friends and families.


For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television, and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of your recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle, leave your family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude. You keep us alive.


I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my opinions and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of the US military, or any other.
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by SouthPark(R)

For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television, and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of your recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle, leave your family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I have walked.
Some of us have seen war first hand. Except we didn't have an AK-47 and a band of brothers behind us. We were children at the mercy of an adult world gone mad. I have some amount of distaste for military people who get up on a pulpit to preach about the horrors they've seen as if though the rest of us have been living peachy lives and couldn't possibly have the foresight or understanding it takes to relate to them in this situation.

I feel very sorry for these men. Some of us who live through war, by the grace of God come away with our humanity intact and an ability to move one with life. Others will have their lives torn apart and in moments of great stress will not be able to tell right from wrong. I sympathize with them, and I also see it as wrong at the same time. My hope is for some kind of just resolution for everyone involved.
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Old 11-17-2004, 06:34 PM   #17
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I don’t know about that. I have an uncle who was in Nam, two Grandfathers in WW2, and do work for a senior center that does a lot with veterans. The message I get from all of them is that it was hell. They all said it was surreal. I can’t even imagine it. Being stolen from all the things you know, go through the most intense piece of training that you will ever have to, have a gun trust in to your hands, and then being told that some man you have never met is the enemy and deserves to die.

It defiantly does something to you. I don’t think it was because he made an unconscious choice between right or wrong. I think it was because he was a afraid, being afraid with a gun in hand is not a good combo.

Like you said I just hope a resolution comes out of this that is considerate, thought out and just.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:37 PM   #18
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War makes people crazy. I really cannot sit in judgment of this soldier's actions as horrible as this is and as much as I am against this war. War does not promote clear thinking and rational actions. I've no doubt that, as Norse said, it is pure hell and no one can know how they would respond in the same situation.
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Old 11-22-2004, 09:15 AM   #19
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Very smart, nuanced article from Slate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2109904/
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Old 11-29-2004, 04:14 AM   #20
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Re: Re: US soldier kills wounded Iraqi

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Originally posted by paxetaurora


wounded and unarmed
Exactly.

Wonder what the international law or Geneva convention have to say about killing wounded and unarmed civilians.
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