US Presidential Election XII

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I don't have any moral qualms with Bill fucking other women and I not once have had a problem with Hillary Clinton being female, etc.

But you have a major problem with her not conforming to your standards of wifeliness.


I've voted for Hillary every time she's run. I like her. I don't give an actual fuck about her role in her marriage because it has no bearing on her job as senator, secretary of state or president.
 
And let's be fucking honest, if Hillary Clinton had ran on basically the platform of Joe Lieberman circa 2004, she'd have still won this damn nomination. It's all about the awful other guy with the Democratic party and never their own candidate. I find that extremely troubling and it leads to the low-turnout midterms and random right-wing Presidential pivots that nobody on the left happened to want (TPP or Grand Bargain, anyone?). It's lazy.

I think you're confusing correlation with causation here. Because, I mean, in 2008, I think very few people were voting against John McCain when they voted for Barack Obama. That election was all about voting FOR Obama. And he won comfortably. By your logic, that means Democrats should've shown up to the polls two years later for the 2010 midterms. But that didn't happen. A Republican wave election happened.

Anyway, I agree, it would be preferable to vote for someone as opposed to against someone, but if we're complaining about having to vote for people to keep awful candidates away from the Oval Office, maybe we should be complaining about the other party continuing to put up awful candidates(three of the last five GOP candidates have been W or Trump). I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think I've ever defended Hillary as an ideal candidate. I've defended her as competent, intelligent, in command of the details and nuances of many issues, and politically on the right side of many, but not all, of the issues I care about. I also allow that some of the concerns you raise are valid, though overhyped, concerns. I acknowledge that she's more hawkish and interventionist on foreign policy than I would like(and this ties into the Clinton Foundation stuff). I acknowledge that I'm not sure what she's going to do w/TPP. I acknowledge that I would honestly vote for a third Obama term before Hillary if it were an option.

But, taking everything into consideration, I conclude that, while I don't know if she'll keep all of her campaign promises(what politician does?), I think she'll keep some of them. I think she'll some good for a lot of people, even if her positions on foreign policy, free trade, etc aren't ideal. I can live with her. I can't live with Donald Trump. I'm sorry, but it can't be ignored.

Call me crazy, but I think Republicans actually pay far more attention to the actual platform than Democratic voters. One attempt at "amnesty" derailed Marco Rubio for most of the race, etc. You can call it needless bitching or wanting to be righter-than-thou but that sort of arguably trivial stance actually matters a great deal to those people. Clinton got a lot of voters that never learned who the hell Sanders even was or that merely chose her because they felt she would do better against the Republican nominee. Neither of those are actual informed policy reasoning for getting behind a candidate and it's explicitly laid out in both primary polling and even recent polling where a great deal of Clinton's backers can't even name a single policy proposal. It's shit like this that just leads to a disappointing Presidency. Like making sure you get pizza instead of steak for dinner and then not actually looking at what type of pizza it happens to be as you're already satisfied with the outcome.

You're trying to argue that people at Trump rallies pay a lot of attention to the platform? You think they could name policy proposals? I'm really not sure about that considering Trump has never uttered a policy proposal other than The Wall(and maybe his pretty much trickle-down tax plan). If anyone really wanted to know what the GOP platform looks like, they'd have to read the actual document(which is available for anyone online). You think these people at Trump rallies are reading that document? I think the platform they care about is a platform of racism. They cheer for building a wall to keep the Mexicans out(that's why they're against amnesty) and instituting a policy to ban Muslims.

I also think you're selling a lot of Democrats short when you say that a great deal of us can't name a policy proposal. $15 minimum wage. Free tuition for state colleges. Equal pay for women. A major initiative to strengthen our infrastructure(bridges, roads, etc). A public option added to the healthcare plan. An attempt, if she can get Congress to play ball, to at long last institute even moderate gun control measures(more background checks, closing the gun show loophole, banning assault weapons again, etc). Investments in green and renewable energy. The implied preservation of Obama's executive orders regarding immigration and perhaps an attempt at passing legislation to solidify those policies(good luck with that though). The promise to appoint judges to overturn Citizens United and defend Roe v Wade. And more. I think a lot of people could name those things.
 
Responding To BVS:

1) Because I was responding to your other post above throwing out accusations of sexism because Clinton is a woman and inferring that I cared about the marriage "not working out" when I never said I did or even implied that it was "not working out" (that's between the Clintons). And yours was far from the only post implying that I had moral qualms with Bill having fun outside of the marriage (although I do in the case of the alleged assaults, obviously).

2) Just look back on previous pages where the discussion of Hillary Clinton's response to these allegations and the assumption that she knows about Bill's extramarital flings suddenly just leads to post after post about Republican infidelities and those of Donald Friggin' Trump. And it's not the first time this happens where I or somebody else posts something critical about Clinton and then the inevitable "But Donald Trump also..." posts start coming in. I'm not attempting a comparison nor casting a blind eye towards what goes on with the Right and their candidates, but that's being implied by people reacting quickly as if I'm trying to say that only Hillary Clinton should be judged on her faults.

3) Regarding the last part about Republican primary voters, you don't think they tend to sift over the candidates with a fine tooth comb for anything that could be disqualifying in their Right Wing litmus test? I think the last few primary seasons for that party along with all of the successful Tea Party primary challenges show they're certainly paying close attention. Comparatively, Joe Lieberman goes and loses his fucking primary and then gets re-elected anyway because that's the name people recognize. I just feel that ever since Bush wreaked havoc on this country and the election of 2004 rolled around that it's always seemed like defense and a "we have to make sure they lose at all costs" rather than trying to have a discussion about policy and questioning the faults of the nominee. You couldn't even get in a word in edge-wise if you brought up John Kerry's constant voting for major Bush Bills in congress because it would just get shut down with "Anybody but Bush!" and I feel 2016 has followed a similar mode, partly due to Donald Trump.

I mean, you know what the number one issue for Iowa Democratic caucus voters was in 2004? The War in Iraq. They then gave the win (and second place/eventual VP slot) to two men that voted for the Iraq War Resolution. If Republicans had an issue that was #1 on their list and someone running in the primaries did the complete opposite of what they wanted, that person would stand no chance in hell of winning.


Oh and I'm not referring to Trump voters when I'm talking about the Republican primary electorate. They are an entirely different breed and obviously none of that shit matters to them because Trump himself doesn't seem to have a single actual position.

But for the rest of the base? It's exactly that nobody-is-good-enough extreme vetting that led them to not get behind anybody this time nor coalesce behind either Santorum or Gingrich last time, etc.
 
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But you have a major problem with her not conforming to your standards of wifeliness.


I've voted for Hillary every time she's run. I like her. I don't give an actual fuck about her role in her marriage because it has no bearing on her job as senator, secretary of state or president.

I never implied or said that and you're just projecting something you want to argue against, I guess.

What happens between her and Bill is between her and Bill. Lying about it to over 300,000,000 people, trying to dig up dirt with political operatives and silence/ignore allegations that you know are true or blaming a blow-job on a vast right wing conspiracy says a hell of a lot about her political opportunism and her willingness to obscure the facts.

It's the private becoming political that matters. If Bill cheated around on her and she allowed it, that wouldn't be the issue. But when there's suddenly an allegation of sexual assault here, Bill lying on the stand there, presenting your marriage as closed with one minor infidelity over the decades when that's not the truth (because it will better your political fortunes)...well, that's where all of this becomes an issue about her leadership skills.

I don't give a fuck about anything that goes on in their marriage that wasn't in the public eye and I don't care about what anybody else does behind closed doors (unless it becomes public and is illegal or what I would consider morally compromising ethically as nothing sexually happens to fit that description in my book). All that matters to me time and again is what a candidate says they support and what I can believe they actually support. I got behind Sanders because he was damn close to my idealized liberal and I vote for other far-left progressives for the same reason.

Again, I do not care about sexual orientation, number of children, degrees held, experience, etc. The objectives of the candidate are all that matters to me. Religion is probably the only thing I might give a thought to simply because I have more respect for those that don't practice it, but I guess that's more of a real world vs. illusory world debate and a similar issue that many on the left have with Republicans who don't seem to pay attention to facts.
 
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Responding To BVS:

1) Because I was responding to your other post above throwing out accusations of sexism because Clinton is a woman and inferring that I cared about the marriage "not working out" when I never said I did or even implied that it was "not working out" (that's between the Clintons). And yours was far from the only post implying that I had moral qualms with Bill having fun outside of the marriage (although I do in the case of the alleged assaults, obviously).
:doh: That's not what I was implying at all, you seem to really have a hard time understanding.
The only point, that I've been trying to make over and over is:
The issue is creating a facade about how your marriage actually works and therefore lying to hundreds of millions of people constantly
You have no reason or right to concern yourself with this whatsoever. No one is lying to you. First of all you have no fucking clue if its a facade, and secondly even if was, people do that sometimes, get over it, it's not a lie being told to you. You would NEVER bring this up if it was a male.

3) Regarding the last part about Republican primary voters, you don't think they tend to sift over the candidates with a fine tooth comb for anything that could be disqualifying in their Right Wing litmus test?
Litmus test? Yes, but that's not what you said. You said they pay attention to the platform, most couldn't even tell you the platform.

Oh and I'm not referring to Trump voters when I'm talking about the Republican primary electorate. They are an entirely different breed and obviously none of that shit matters to them because Trump himself doesn't seem to have a single actual position.
Yet most of them fell in line, which shows the world any talk of principles, platform, or litmus test is all hypocritical bullshit.
 
presenting your marriage as closed with one minor infidelity over the decades when that's not the truth (because it will better your political fortunes)

Once again, you've got no special insight into their marriage that allows you to pass off the above opinion as if it's undisputed fact.

Again, I do not care about sexual orientation, number of children, degrees held, experience, etc. The objectives of the candidate are all that matters to me. Religion is probably the only thing I might give a thought to simply because I have more respect for those that don't practice it, but I guess that's more of a real world vs. illusory world debate and a similar issue that many on the left have with Republicans who don't seem to pay attention to facts.

Aaaand there's a nice little jab at the intelligence of religious people again.
 
We'll see if it's true or not.

Could it be in regards to the Clinton Foundation (or anything Clinton), that these accusations and stories of corruption are just that, stories?

I don't get what the media has to gain or lose by making sure a liberal is in office. Having a liberal in office has been great business for FoxNews, so why wouldn't MSNBC want Trump? The material would be endless.

Let's see what comes of this Ukraine story. There were rumblings about it before, and now it's out in the open.

I just can't believe if Clinton had something really bad against her or any program she's involved with, major networks all over would be running it.

Occam's Razor


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
 

A juicy detail to an already juicy story: Corey Lewandowski tweeted a link to the New York Times article on this last night.

That's the former Trump campaign manager and still apparently staunch Trump defender, retweeting a story from the paper Donald is currently lashing out at daily in tweet tantrums, that suggests that the current campaign manager was engaged in ethically dubious, possibly criminal and definitely pro-Kremlin electioneering in the Ukraine.

One gets the sense there's bad blood there.
 
You clearly misread my post. I don't give a shit about how marriages should work and the like. It's pretending you have a closed and loving relationship when all the evidence says otherwise and lying under oath to the American people about what went down because you're afraid it will harm you politically. Yes, there's a lot of "moral" voters and it's complete bullshit, but to perpetuate a marriage and pretend that all this other shit didn't happen aside from the Lewinski blowjob is an extremely transparent lie.

even still, so what? my girlfriend and i have the kind of relationship where it wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker if one of us slept with someone else. as long as the other person was at least provided the option to join in :shrug: even if this was the case though, i still wouldn't be forthcoming with that information as the president of the united states to the general public, even under oath. who knows what they agreed to? who's fucking business is it? nobody's. point blank.
 
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A juicy detail to an already juicy story: Corey Lewandowski tweeted a link to the New York Times article on this last night.

That's the former Trump campaign manager and still apparently staunch Trump defender, retweeting a story from the paper Donald is currently lashing out at daily in tweet tantrums, that suggests that the current campaign manager was engaged in ethically dubious, possibly criminal and definitely pro-Kremlin electioneering in the Ukraine.

One gets the sense there's bad blood there.

do we not already have a "no shit news" thread here in fym?
 
Okay, I've read a bit about Juantia Broaddrick's accusations and I will say this:

I don't know if her allegations are true or not, but it's certainly possible this happened and she should be treated with sensitivity.

However. Why is everyone, including Broaddrick, so much madder at Hillary over this than Bill?

Did Hillary do a handshake wrong in 1978 or whatever year it was that Broaddrick said it happened? I don't know.

I am inclined to believe accusers. Let's say it's true that Hillary did whatever she is supposed to have done to discredit these women. That's bad. But you know what? Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I don't think there's a career politician out there who doesn't have bodies buried somewhere.

I'm still voting for her. I don't have to like every decision she's made, or every action she's taken. That's the way it goes. There is no perfect candidate.

And no, I'm not voting for Jill Stein. I'm voting to ensure that Trump gets nowhere near the White House and the Supreme Court justices the next POTUS will appoint.
 
Hell, let's just set aside the noted thing about Giuliani's history of using 9/11 as he did politically that makes his comments even more absurd. Let's set aside the fact that what he said is so blatantly NOT TRUE it's not even funny?

No, the worst part of what he said is that it's one hell of a nasty slap in the face to the families of the victims who died on 9/11, or the first responders who had to go in and rescue people and pull out bodies and so on. They would certainly beg to differ with how "unsuccessful" that attack was.

Re: Cori's comments about Hilary and the women making accusations. I'll need to go look up the details, too, but like I said a couple pages back, I'm not surprised that Hilary would want to dismiss any nasty accusations against her husband for the simple fact that, well, naturally, she, like many wives, would want to believe in their husband's innocence in such situations. It's one thing to suspect or acknowledge that your husband might be, or is, having an affair. It's something else entirely to have to deal with and accept the possibility your husband might've sexually assaulted a woman.

Now, if Hilary used some rather nasty means to try and discredit those women, that would be a valid concern worth discussing. But if we're equating dismissing/discrediting those women with her simply wanting to believe in her husband's innocence against nasty accusations, well, she's certainly not the first woman to do that, nor would she be the last, and again, I can understand why she would do that.

Even then, though, like Cori said, this is ultimately Bill's problem to deal with, not hers. It shouldn't be her job to try and prove or disprove these women's accusations to begin with, because she's not the one who's being accused of those crimes. That's something Bill needs to address and deal with.
 
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