US Presidential Election XII

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by BEAL

If I'm going to be honest:

No politician is pure. Running a society, a government, economy isn't black or white. There are tons of grey areas. We as a society have conflicting needs, and it's impossible for an official to satisfy everyone all the time. Someone is going to be upset, and someone is probably going to get screwed over more than another.

You could argue the system creates the corruption, or that the people eventually turn a noble idea corrupt.

When it comes to Clinton, I fall back on all of these theories, accusations, slander, and nothing has stuck. Again, she's either the most brilliant politician ever, or there really isn't any merit to these claims.

Is she perfect? Nope. Has she done questionable things? Yep. Does her name have something to do with her getting away with some questionable calls? Probably. If something were to actually come out that has evidence and merit behind it, I would definitely reconsider. But it hasn't.

I guess that's just life. It isn't fair. She is the nominee, and I'll support her. If the other party had any sort of sanity and direction, I'd consider voting for them. They don't. They have tripled down on ignorance and stupidity.

A career politician who's been to hell and back has my vote this time. I don't have to like her.

Every last word of this.

[bobsaget77]

Originally Posted by BVS

The media, comedians, late night talk shows; there's a whole lot of people that would love to have a Trump presidency from a personal career standpoint. They'd all benefit.


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Also coal miners, plant workers, the middle class, low income individuals, veterans, etc.


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[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by bobsaget77

Also coal miners, plant workers, the middle class, low income individuals, veterans, etc.


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How?

[martha]

Originally Posted by bobsaget77

Also coal miners, plant workers, the middle class, low income individuals, veterans, etc.


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Yes, Trump has shown his respect for veterans time and again.


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[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by Debra S

Apt point. How are the Republicans going to woo the Hispanic vote? Maybe find someone who can speak Spanish! And the African-Americans, they love the Clintons, don't know why. There is a huge undocumented populist minority who are behind Trump 100%, he speaks for them. What % of the base will vote, and will they claim the swing states? Clinton is depending on the lowly to need her government programs.

Pro-Amnesty immigration is not necessarily a slam dunk issue for ginning up the Hispanic base of voters. Sure the La Raza crowd loves it. Recent polling suggests that Trump's message is finding fertile ground in the Hispanic population. No it's not overwhelming. But the recent Economist/YouGov poll finds his Hispanic support at 35% (better than both McCain and Romney). I believe Romney ended up with 27% in 2012.

http://redalertpolitics.com/2016/08/...ain-hispanics/

It is not a monolithic block of voters. Anecdotally I had a chance to talk to a Hispanic trucker that lives in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas (bluest part of the state). He usually voted Democrat but was in favor of Trump this cycle.

He resented that new immigrants in his area were receiving more in government benefits than long time citizens in his community. He was also concerned about the rising crime rates which he felt directly corresponded to the influx of immigrants. Lastly, he told me many members of his community shared his feelings about Trump, but keep their opinions to themselves to avoid backlash from the opposing

I know anecdotes don't count much in the grand scheme of things. I find it interesting to get the pulse of the people who live a life completely different than my own.


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[Headache in a Suitcase]

Looks like Oregoropa finally snapped...

[BVS]

Originally Posted by bobsaget77

Also coal miners, plant workers, the middle class, low income individuals, veterans, etc.


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Oh really? Can you tell me how? Maybe you can elaborate more on Trump's economic plan, because he sure hasn't.

Maybe he'll run things like he does his companies? Outsource, don't pay vendors in order to look on budget, sue and grease hands, and then bail when he's failed


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[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by bobsaget77

Also coal miners, plant workers, the middle class, low income individuals, veterans, etc.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeah, as one of those low income people, I really have an exceedingly hard time believing that Trump will somehow bring fortune and riches to my life.

But believe what you want to believe, I suppose.

[martha]

The Republicans are all but irrelevant here in California and it's been that way since they went after Latinos with Prop 187 some 30 years ago. In fact, California Republicans want Trump to STFU with his racist bullshit so they don't lose any more Latino votes here.

So I'm sure he's way ahead here.


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[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by anitram

Again, I just feel sad for you because you seem like a reasonable and smart guy.



But THESE are the hopes you have to hang onto. Women and children dying in a terror attack to frighten the lowest common denominator voters. A douche who's probably a rapist coming up with some personal stuff nobody has been able to unearth even though the Clintons have no privacy left. Just wow.

I was a couple shots deep in the bar while fiddling on my phone. Didn't have the normal time to write out more explanatory paragraphs. It is a reality that both candidates will have to respond to a future crisis in the next 3 months, just as the financial crash of 2008 flipped the election on its head. Any event could slide the scales to either candidate depending on their response. Didn't intend for it to come across as me waving the poms poms for another tragedy.


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[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase

Looks like Oregoropa finally snapped...

I thought I snapped Monday peddling Hillary conspiracies or as Vlad called it "performance art"


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[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by Caleb8844

Trump makes an offhand stupid comment about the second amendment folk taking care of Hillary Clinton -- the flames of hell are slowly eating us, says forum

Public figure known for bringing diabolical govt. dealings to light implies a DNC official randomly murdered might be his source -- deflect to conservatives think the librel MEDIA LIES LAUGH EVERYONE LAUGH

does this routine ever wear anyone out? Trump's insane; Hillary's clearly crooked at this point -- why waste your time denying? Clinton's winning either way. At least leave this election cycle with your intellectual honesty intact.

There's no way that an opportunist like Assange would take advantage of someone's death in an attempt to add legitimacy to his cause! He doesn't have time for those sorts of games, what with all the raping.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Pro-Amnesty immigration is not necessarily a slam dunk issue for ginning up the Hispanic base of voters. Sure the La Raza crowd loves it. Recent polling suggests that Trump's message is finding fertile ground in the Hispanic population. No it's not overwhelming. But the recent Economist/YouGov poll finds his Hispanic support at 35% (better than both McCain and Romney). I believe Romney ended up with 27% in 2012.

http://redalertpolitics.com/2016/08/...ain-hispanics/

It is not a monolithic block of voters. Anecdotally I had a chance to talk to a Hispanic trucker that lives in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas (bluest part of the state). He usually voted Democrat but was in favor of Trump this cycle.

He resented that new immigrants in his area were receiving more in government benefits than long time citizens in his community. He was also concerned about the rising crime rates which he felt directly corresponded to the influx of immigrants. Lastly, he told me many members of his community shared his feelings about Trump, but keep their opinions to themselves to avoid backlash from the opposing

I know anecdotes don't count much in the grand scheme of things. I find it interesting to get the pulse of the people who live a life completely different than my own.


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Based on a YouGov poll, a market research company that does purely online polling.

Any other polls agreeing with these numbers?


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[Caleb8844]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

There's no way that an opportunist like Assange would take advantage of someone's death in an attempt to add legitimacy to his cause! He doesn't have time for those sorts of games, what with all the raping.

There's nowhere that I've claimed I think the Clintons murdered this man, or that Assange is above repute.

But do we really believe we wouldn't be having a conversation about this if it were Trump or Sanders?

It's worth a conversation. The Clinton foundation is worth a conversation. The private server was worth a conversation. The FBI's bizarre explanation for recommending she not be indicted is worth a conversation.

Conversations should be had, and falling back on the idea that, since there have been some scandals that didn't seem to fit in the past, all scandals are now axiomatically false, is lazy.

Bush obviously didn't do 9/11. That was a bullshit scandal. Bush likely lied about Iraq. That was not a bullshit scandal, even though it happened after a scandal that *was* bullshit.


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[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I would hardly call Julian Assange "right wing."

I thought he was a libertarian. I don't think he leans too much to either side, though.

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

Yeeeeeeeeeeeah, as one of those low income people, I really have an exceedingly hard time believing that Trump will somehow bring fortune and riches to my life.



But believe what you want to believe, I suppose.

Is Trump going to bring back the Textile Industry of 1840s Massachusetts? Obviously Not. He might as well lock up Crooked Boss Tweed while he's at it.

I cannot speak for everybody here, but for many Americans wages have flatlined over the past 20 years while the cost of living has gone up. Opportunities have diminished for millennials who want nothing more than to work than be stuck in their parents basements while the student loan bills fill the mailbox. At the end of the day the health of the American Dream is represented in the bi-weekly pay checks they look at twice a month. Whatever candidate can successfully connect the string of pearls from their macro-economic vision to those pay checks will win the election.

Hillary seems to be offering the status quo in economic policy. I haven't heard anything novel yet in her message. I've heard 'we will retrain workers for the jobs of tomorrow'. Perhaps teaching coal miners to build solar panels and wind turbines. Retraining and investments would entail more government spending. Picking winners and losers for government funding hasn't had a great track record I.E. Solyndra.

I'm more attracted to Trump's plan of getting the government off the backs of business, be it large corporations down to mom & pop shops. Dropping the business tax rate from 35 to 15% creates incentive for tremendous growth in the economy. More growth equals more jobs. Dropping the rate would establish the US as a favorable base of operations for foreign companies as well. All of this expands the tax base. Wage growth increases the amount going to government coffers. This is running the United States as a business.

So Trump filed bankruptcy restructuring ~5 times out of 500 or so business ventures? That's actually not a bad scorecard.

Secondly, the world craves energy and we have it. This argument will not sit well with the Climate Apocalypse crowd . . . So be it. Trump proposes ramping up energy production by lifting regulations currently in place. The US has or is soon to pass Saudi Arabia in oil production. Not only will we become energy independent (not beholden to foreign interests in the Middle East/Russia) but we will profit through energy exports of coal, oil, and natural gas. Comparatively speaking we have an environmentally safer extraction technology compared to the rest of the world. We hear about Obama wanting to kick BPs ass for Deepwater Horizon but spills happen with much higher frequency in the shitty pipeline construction in Nigeria, damaging the African ecosystem.

I'm bound to get the "I can't believe you believe in this trickle down fantasy" responses, but I have more faith in the free market than a bunch of DC technocrats who've never run a pizza parlor let alone a multi-trillion dollar economy. The entitlement bills are coming due with the next wave of retirees. We need to start turning a profit or we will be screwed. In Hillary I see a manager of America's slow decline. In Trump I see a leader that will give the economy the shot of adrenaline it needs.


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[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

I thought he was a libertarian. I don't think he leans too much to either side, though.

Libertarian but borderline anarchist, not necessarily capitalist.

I wouldn't call libertarianism right wing, either. That's the sort of thing that belongs on a two dimensional plot, and in the scope of US politics it's pretty bipolar.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Libertarian but borderline anarchist, not necessarily capitalist.

I wouldn't call libertarianism right wing, either. That's the sort of thing that belongs on a two dimensional plot, and in the scope of US politics it's pretty bipolar.

Yeah, partly what I was getting at. Maybe left-libertarian.

I don't think I've ever heard an instance of him voice support in favour of a stateless/classless society however and he does have a following in some pockets of the left, but I struggle to feel the same for obvious reasons.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I'm bound to get the "I can't believe you believe in this trickle down fantasy" responses, but I have more faith in the free market than a bunch of DC technocrats who've never run a pizza parlor let alone a multi-trillion dollar economy.

I'm going to say I can't believe you believe that because you can ask my parents how well "trickle down theory" worked for them over the years in their respective jobs.

Short answer: it didn't. At least, not for anyone other than the corporate higher ups who walked away with handsome bonuses and lots of money while the places my parents worked shut down and the employees lost their jobs.

I don't go in for the "American Dream" BS that people like to peddle, because frankly, I think the "American Dream" can vary from person to person depending on what they're looking for our of life. I just want to make enough money to pay any necessary bills I need to pay, and have enough left over for any other necessities/wants of importance to me.

And I honestly do not believe at all that Trump will help anyone other than himself. He is the definition of narcissistic, and he only cares about making himself happy financially. Nobody else.

And I seriously cannot believe you honestly think otherwise. Even if you support the free market principles themselves, surely one would think it'd be better to have anyone other than Trump representing them. He doesn't exactly scream "stability" in any sense.

(Also, regarding Hilary representing the "status quo", hasn't job growth been happening (slowly at times, yes, but still) in recent years? And hasn't there been more talk in recent years about upping the minimum wage by some degree (maybe not the fantasized about $15 dollar one that people keep pushing for, no, but perhaps something a little more manageable to start with, at least? And doesn't Hilary support that? If that's the status quo, I don't exactly see where that's a bad thing.)

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

In Trump I see a leader that will give the economy the shot of adrenaline it needs.

If you say so.

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Libertarian but borderline anarchist, not necessarily capitalist.

I wouldn't call libertarianism right wing, either. That's the sort of thing that belongs on a two dimensional plot, and in the scope of US politics it's pretty bipolar.

Whoever Assange is, his organization keeps happening upon closely held information many people are interested in.

Makes you wonder when the next thing is coming down the pike....