US Presidential Election 2016...because it's never too early

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by BigMacPhisto

The other candidates (O'Malley, Webb, Chaffee) really have nothing to offer

O'Malley offers us the first legitimate political DILF in quite some time.

[BlenderJoe]

Originally Posted by BigMacPhisto

Sanders numbers are pretty damn high against Clinton, especially since a lot of the country probably still doesn't know who he is...meanwhile, the other Democratic candidates have no traction.

Nationwide opinion polling for the Democratic Party 2016 presidential primaries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It will probably come down to a slug match between Sanders and Clinton. I imagine he would have no problem defeating her in states like Iowa and New Hampshire for various reasons (he's great at town hall meetings, comes from a rural state as well, voters in the early states don't just want to rubber-stamp the "inevitable" nominee).

But when it comes to larger states? Sanders really is never going to have the resources and name recognition to do well in somewhere like California or Florida which will surely have millions of low information voters that will just mindlessly check the box next to Hillary's name.

The other candidates (O'Malley, Webb, Chaffee) really have nothing to offer as they are to Hillary's right. And likewise, they all seem to hover around 0-1% for that very reason.

Agree 100%. I think Bernie will do well in many smaller states, but will be swamped out by dollars and pure mass of people in CA and other big states. It will be interesting for sure!

One blitz move I could see in play is to start swamping the Dem field with "cannon fodder" candidates in order to water down the debates. I'm fairly certain that Hillary would have a stroke if she had to debate Bernie for 1-2 hrs straight!

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

He's allowed to have the opinion that we are already under fascism.

Why is it anytime someone challenges hyperbolic, incorrect, or just plain idiotic statements you and others always come around and say "he's allowed to have that opinion"?

Did I say you are not allowed to have that opinion? If I came on here and posted that all conservatives are missing the cognitive thinking portion of their brain are you going to just are you going to get upset with those that challenge me and tell them I'm allowed that opinion? This whole concept of "allowed an opinion" means it can't go challenged is truly bizarre.


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[BigMacPhisto]

Originally Posted by BlenderJoe

One blitz move I could see in play is to start swamping the Dem field with "cannon fodder" candidates in order to water down the debates. I'm fairly certain that Hillary would have a stroke if she had to debate Bernie for 1-2 hrs straight!

He's going to make her sweat to say the least. She lost to Obama because of Obama pretending to be a liberal...now she has to go up against the real deal with a track record to prove it. The guy voted against NAFTA, the Patriot Act, the Iraq War...if he directly challenges her in the debates on those sort of topics, she's going to be in for a world of hurt. How on earth can she justify the positions she's taken on things like that or TPP?

The establishment itself is also going to be having a heart attack if Sanders polls ahead in or even wins the first few states...basically every high-ranking Democrat has already endorsed Clinton, probably figuring it was a done deal.

[BlenderJoe]

Originally Posted by BVS

Ok then let's discuss without all the myopia and hyperbole.

First, where did you get that definition of fascism? I've never seen that definition.

Secondly, can you give me examples of how Obama has shut down these discussions?


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Corporate fascism, or corporatism, is the definition I was referring to. Here's a brief synopsis (not affiliated with this page, and haven't read it 100%, but seems to have the concepts straight. I'm just in a hurry atm):

What Is Corporate Fascism? Is The Government Of The United States A Fascist Form Of Government?

Government representatives against the TPP (few and far between, especially willing to speak out) are the primary source of information regarding Obama's clamp down on TPP discussion. Elizabeth Warren has stated repeatedly that she has read the TPP, feels it is a horrible deal for Americans, but is prohibited from discussing the details of the deal with the American plublic. So all she can do is sound the alarm, and get the word out that secret trade deals must not be fast tracked, hopefully spurring enough citizens to get involvled. This is but 1 example of Obama's clampdown on the flow of information. Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders have also spoken out forcefully, but again, no details as they are prohibited from discussing them.

Even if Obama does not believe in the TPP personally (who knows), I think he has no choice but to go all out to push this thing and "play the game". The mountain of campaign cash he accepted from corporate donors and Wall Street surely has resulted in this "debt" having to be paid before he leaves office. I wouldn't even be surprised if they have threatened his family or descendants, etc. Is he just a captive of the system? Who knows.

The powers behind the TPP know that it will never pass once the US public know the details. Thats why the move to fast track the debate with no amendments. Fast track through the Senate took about 24 hours to be approved, even with the initial opposition of nearly all the democrats. That is some kind of record for fast track power to be granted. Normally there are weeks of debate and discussion, as well as open access to the trade agreements being considered.

Now the fast track legislation moves to the House, where the opposition is expected to not fold as easily as it did in the Senate. Fast track and the TPP needs to die in the House. Signing petitions and phone calls to house reps are our best course of action. Let them know if they vote for this, they are gone next cycle. Might not be enough though, since the word is there is major arm twisting and probably threats being made in order to get enough votes to pass fast track in the House.

You can read many leaked pieces of it on Wikileaks, thankfully. But it's not the full document or the most recent revision I'm sure.

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by BVS

Why is it anytime someone challenges hyperbolic, incorrect, or just plain idiotic statements you and others always come around and say "he's allowed to have that opinion"?

Did I say you are not allowed to have that opinion? If I came on here and posted that all conservatives are missing the cognitive thinking portion of their brain are you going to just are you going to get upset with those that challenge me and tell them I'm allowed that opinion? This whole concept of "allowed an opinion" means it can't go challenged is truly bizarre.


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You then chime in about "real opinions only". A couple pages back

[DaveC]

EDIT: Nope, this shit is way too stupid and nowhere near worth my time.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by BlenderJoe

Corporate fascism, or corporatism, is the definition I was referring to. Here's a brief synopsis (not affiliated with this page, and haven't read it 100%, but seems to have the concepts straight. I'm just in a hurry atm):

What Is Corporate Fascism? Is The Government Of The United States A Fascist Form Of Government?

Government representatives against the TPP (few and far between, especially willing to speak out) are the primary source of information regarding Obama's clamp down on TPP discussion. Elizabeth Warren has stated repeatedly that she has read the TPP, feels it is a horrible deal for Americans, but is prohibited from discussing the details of the deal with the American plublic. So all she can do is sound the alarm, and get the word out that secret trade deals must not be fast tracked, hopefully spurring enough citizens to get involvled. This is but 1 example of Obama's clampdown on the flow of information. Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders have also spoken out forcefully, but again, no details as they are prohibited from discussing them.

Even if Obama does not believe in the TPP personally (who knows), I think he has no choice but to go all out to push this thing and "play the game". The mountain of campaign cash he accepted from corporate donors and Wall Street surely has resulted in this "debt" having to be paid before he leaves office. I wouldn't even be surprised if they have threatened his family or descendants, etc. Is he just a captive of the system? Who knows.

The powers behind the TPP know that it will never pass once the US public know the details. Thats why the move to fast track the debate with no amendments. Fast track through the Senate took about 24 hours to be approved, even with the initial opposition of nearly all the democrats. That is some kind of record for fast track power to be granted. Normally there are weeks of debate and discussion, as well as open access to the trade agreements being considered.

Now the fast track legislation moves to the House, where the opposition is expected to not fold as easily as it did in the Senate. Fast track and the TPP needs to die in the House. Signing petitions and phone calls to house reps are our best course of action. Let them know if they vote for this, they are gone next cycle. Might not be enough though, since the word is there is major arm twisting and probably threats being made in order to get enough votes to pass fast track in the House.

You can read many leaked pieces of it on Wikileaks, thankfully. But it's not the full document or the most recent revision I'm sure.

This is a much more nuanced and throughout post. Thank you.


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[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

You then chime in about "real opinions only". A couple pages back

So you missed my point on that one too?


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[BlenderJoe]

Originally Posted by DaveC

EDIT: Nope, this shit is way too stupid and nowhere near worth my time.

Sorry you feel that way. I am passionate about not wanting this country go down the crapper any further, that is my only motivation here. My response to you was a bit rude, but so was your initial comment IMO.

Peace, out.

Same for BVS, I get heated discussing this topic when I feel dismissed without much consideration. Didn't mean any offense.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison

What i will say is, giving credit where it is due, Obama has done a lot of good things and he deserves credit for two very important things from me; turning the economy around and killing bin laden.

I really don't like the idea of giving credit to an individual over the killing of Bin Laden. That's an institutional victory from the CIA, and the roots can be shared equally among the administrations overseeing the hunt. That's years of work, and Obama's call on it doesn't give him the credit. It's a big deal for his presidency, and it shouldn't be.

What people should focus on is civil rights and economic upturn from Obama. That's the two defining positives, in my eyes. Lots of stuff that's still grey, and some stuff that's in the red too.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by DaveC

Ridiculous. Take that hyperbolic shit elsewhere, please.

I found it somewhat amusing, lament the 'destruction' of the middle class and then call it 'pure fascism,' when fascism has traditionally been a reactionary ideology that aims to appeal to the middle class.

[BlenderJoe]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

I found it somewhat amusing, lament the 'destruction' of the middle class and then call it 'pure fascism,' when fascism has traditionally been a reactionary ideology that aims to appeal to the middle class.

I can read wikipedia too. No bonus points for you!

[LuckyNumber7]

If you can, then why don't ya?

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Fascism is coming back. Nixon was going to be one of the great Presidents until that motherfucker Kennedy stole that motherfucker election. Because he was a Communist

You not a bad looking man Mr. Garrison, I'm gonna look you up when I get out

Kevin Bacon in JFK

Whenever I read the fascism comments I keep hearing his voice. What a great movie even though I don't buy the Garrison theory. I think what happened was more in line with 'Smoking Gun' documentary.

Kevin Bacon looks way too much like Larry. Or the other way around.

Originally Posted by BlenderJoe

I can read wikipedia too. No bonus points for you!

To be honest, I thought you were on the money with the 'marriage of corporation and state' definition, although I don't share your belief that the US is a fascist state and that throwing around the term (not necessarily you, but just in general) frequently is unhelpful.

[BlenderJoe]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

If you can, then why don't ya?

Because there are far better sources of information?

[PhilsFan]

The Citizens United decision basically gave corporations a blank check to run the country. A check they mostly already had anyway.


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[BlenderJoe]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

To be honest, I thought you were on the money with the 'marriage of corporation and state' definition, although I don't share your belief that the US is a fascist state and that throwing around the term (not necessarily you, but just in general) frequently is unhelpful.

Fair enough. I agree it's not helping the discussion, in fact people are obsessing over it so much that I very much regret using that word it in the first place. Losing focus on any actual substance of discussion.

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Kevin Bacon looks way too much like Larry. Or the other way around.

He does. With the shirt open.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by BlenderJoe

Because there are far better sources of information?

Such as?

Wikipedia uses citations, you know... there's nothing wrong with reading it.