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Old 05-21-2015, 06:44 PM   #381
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How much longer will people (originally I said "Americans", but this is not a strictly American problem) allow their elected officials - on all sides of the political spectrum - to speak to them in such insulting, demeaning, unintelligent and patronizing ways? Holy fuck, this guy essentially just said "I think you're all god damned idiots incapable of thinking about anything at all" to the entire nation. Right to healthcare = slavery, come the fuck on. No adult can honestly say something like that outside of an absurd comedy sketch. What a crock of baloney. Not surprising so much loose dry shit can spew from a giant gaping asshole.

I guess we need to know the context of what the witness before the committee said. Could have been equally asinine.
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:04 PM   #382
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The point that he was making was that what is considered "left" in America, is really "centre-left" in other parts of the world. Same thing goes for the right of the political spectrum. That's his perspective, based on where he's from.

Also, he's not wrong.


When it comes to social welfare, yes.

However, I think we gloss over lots of nuances and differences with these terms between North America and Europe, and even the UK and Europe. Many far right Europeans believe in robust social welfare states, but they are socially and culturally very conservative.
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:20 PM   #383
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But a right to healthcare will turn into a right to free healthcare. The right to bear arms will turn into a right to free guns. Plus once you get your first, it's much easier to get the second and third for free.


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no one has ever talked about 'An Affordable Weapons Act"

or that Weapons should be free, or provided to people that cannot afford them.

not that I am agreeing with Rand
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:21 PM   #384
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Universal health care isn't actually free, you fucking dipshit.

God, I hate Rand Paul. He just says things that he thinks sound Republican-ish and hopes it works out.
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:27 PM   #385
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yes it's not free, but once the Government becomes overly involved they will have doctors working for slave wages. In America we reward the industry with generous compensation for advancements and greater skill/ expertise.
In countries with socialized medicine doctors live no better than many of their patients.
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:28 PM   #386
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God, I hate Rand Paul.
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:29 PM   #387
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yes it's not free, but once the Government becomes overly involved they will have doctors working for slave wages. In America we reward the industry with generous compensation for advancements and greater skill/ expertise.
In countries with socialized medicine doctors live no better than many of their patients.
Right, Then whats the motivation for a student to want to go through all the schooling and debt.
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Old 05-21-2015, 07:30 PM   #388
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no one has ever talked about 'An Affordable Weapons Act"



or that Weapons should be free, or provided to people that cannot afford them.



not that I am agreeing with Rand

So it's only the poor that are the slave owners? It's not everyone else wanting affordable healthcare and calling it a 'right'?

It seemed to me that Rand had an issue with calling it a 'right' and he was equating 'right' with free, and my point was that not all 'rights' are free.


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Old 05-21-2015, 07:40 PM   #389
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yes it's not free, but once the Government becomes overly involved they will have doctors working for slave wages. In America we reward the industry with generous compensation for advancements and greater skill/ expertise.
In countries with socialized medicine doctors live no better than many of their patients.

There were doctors being paid "slave wages" before the ACA. Insurance companies were making the real money. It's true, the ACA will reduce the disparity of wages from the top earners and those that chose to serve the diabetics, but slave wages? Really?

I know personally that some of the "poorer" hospitals here in TX have broken even or made a profit for the first time in decades since the ACA has been enacted.


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Old 05-21-2015, 07:47 PM   #390
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In countries with socialized medicine doctors live no better than many of their patients.
Many of their patients? That's simply not true. Unless you're going by claims that doctors work with 50-60% overhead on a $150k income when the number is more realistically 25-30%.

How much are Canadian doctors paid? - The Globe and Mail

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More than 90 per cent of Canadian physicians are incorporated, which has some tax advantages, such as lower taxes, income splitting (paying a salary to a spouse, for example), and deferring tax payments by holding money in the corporation.

Let’s take a practical example of how this works, courtesy of the Canadian Medical Association. A physician with billings of about $250,000 would have a net income of about $200,000 and take home $127,100 after taxes. That same physician, incorporated, would have roughly the same take-home but be able to defer taxes on $60,000.

What you hear, especially during contract negotiation time, is that physicians have overhead costs ranging from 40-60 per cent, and pay 40 per cent income taxes. The available data show that this is self-serving piffle.

But equally spurious is the rhetoric about doctors oozing wealth. During Ontario’s recent contract talks much was made of the 252 “millionaire” physicians when, in fact, those who bill $1-million are outliers, not at all representative.

Beyond the crude numbers we have, we don’t know how many hours physicians practice, how their income varies by years of experience and other basic information.

All this is to say that physicians are not living high on the hog. For the most part, they are earning wages commensurate with their training and responsibility. Many doctors are, frankly, underpaid.

But what doctors are paid should not be a guessing game. The lack of transparency does not serve taxpayers or the medical profession.
It's problematic that some mechanics make as much as physicians with $100k in student loans, but that tells me that the mechanic is being overvalued relative to the physician, not that the physician is a slave.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:00 PM   #391
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I guess we need to know the context of what the witness before the committee said. Could have been equally asinine.
Who gives a flying fuck what the witness said? Under what conceivable context could that statement make any rational sense?

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yes it's not free, but once the Government becomes overly involved they will have doctors working for slave wages. In America we reward the industry with generous compensation for advancements and greater skill/ expertise.
In countries with socialized medicine doctors live no better than many of their patients.
I live in a country with universal healthcare. This is patently false. Don't just make shit up, I know you're better than that, deep.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:15 PM   #392
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Um, one person does not equal most.

And to give you context that poster is not in the U.S., what some of you consider "far-left" is very center compared to other parts of the world.


*edited to say one other poster has come out and said Sanders isn't liberal but after you had made this comment.

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In some parts, yeah, but the position of the political mainstream differs country by country, I do think it's simplistic to say that the US mainstream is further to the right of any country in the world (and just to clarify it's definitely not what I meant).

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Do you not know that Vlad is not an American, Bob? I don't think you know that.


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Outside is America.

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The internet is in America, Vlad. Get the fuck out of here.
This is an example of US cyberweb imperialism, claiming everything with .com domains.



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How is it a cop out?

If anything it's a justification for his broader view that liberals in the States are pretty centrist globally.
And that the term 'liberal' takes on a vastly different meaning in places such as Europe, and hell, even Australia where to be labelled a 'liberal' is to suggest that one supports the ruling conservative party.

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Vlad can have an opinion. I love UK politics. And he's probably correct in his initial point that Sanders is probably conservative compared to Socialist parties in Euro parliaments.


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I actually tend to disagree with this, Sanders seems to be more or less on the same level as the nominally social democratic parties in Europe. I would say Sanders is more progressive than the leadership bases of UK Labour (New Labour aren't a particularly leftwing force in my opinion), and that in a UK context I think he'd find himself right at home with the Greens or the SNP.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:26 PM   #393
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Right, Then whats the motivation for a student to want to go through all the schooling and debt.

To help people?
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:46 PM   #394
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To help people?
Then we're going to have a doctor shortage, because some people won't go through with it.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:20 PM   #395
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Then we're going to have a doctor shortage, because some people won't go through with it.
[citation needed]
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:24 PM   #396
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Then we're going to have a doctor shortage, because some people won't go through with it.

I want the doctor who's motivated by her Porsche operating on me!

Money is definitely a motivator. But to think salaries will get so low that it won't motivate medicine is ludicrous.

I graduated with a degree 18 years ago that requires more testing than a lawyer to get licensed, as much liability as a doctor, and I was making the same as a school teacher upon graduation. A profession where you don't get beyond "slave wages" until your name is on the firm. This profession has always been this way and it will never die.


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Old 05-21-2015, 10:44 PM   #397
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Then we're going to have a doctor shortage, because some people won't go through with it.
Like the upcoming teacher shortage?

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and I was making the same as a school teacher upon graduation.
A telling comparison.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:54 PM   #398
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I want the doctor who's motivated by her Porsche operating on me!

Money is definitely a motivator. But to think salaries will get so low that it won't motivate medicine is ludicrous.

I graduated with a degree 18 years ago that requires more testing than a lawyer to get licensed, as much liability as a doctor, and I was making the same as a school teacher upon graduation. A profession where you don't get beyond "slave wages" until your name is on the firm. This profession has always been this way and it will never die.


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What's your profession BVS (if you don't mind me asking)? Based on what you've written it sounds an awful lot like architecture.
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:05 PM   #399
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My original statement

Then we're going to have a doctor shortage, because some people won't go through with it.

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[citation needed]
Didn't know I needed a citation for human nature. But if you're grading my paper of a simple statement here you go.


Here is government provided healthcare (VA) struggling to fill positions because of wage restrictions. (mandated lower wages than private sector)
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/us...aits.html?_r=0

Doctor shortage could take turn for the worse

Is Medical School Worth it Financially?

A Physician Shortage – What About Universal Health Care? on Birmingham Medical News
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:09 PM   #400
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Like the upcoming teacher shortage?
Teachers don't have to go to school for at least seven years and graduate with loads of debt.
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