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Old 09-28-2020, 12:31 AM   #161
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Which brings up another good and NOT a gotcha question that needs to be asked at the debate.

Mr. Trump. You continually say that mail in ballots are rife with fraud. Can you name any study of voter fraud in the last 20 years that has shown this to be the case? And also, why is your campaign, including Laura Trump and Kimberly Gilfoyle (sp?) promoting and encouraging mail in voting on robocalls to your voters if mail in voting is indeed fraudulent?
The problem with American TV journalists is not that their questions aren't long or detailed enough. The problem is that they just accept anything the interviewee answers and move on, treating their questions more like a list of assignements to get through. Ask the question, hear the answer, and move on. I'm not sure if it's a lack of preparedness, a lack of skill, or deliberate, but it's very frustrating to see.

And since this is the debate, they have no choice but to move on anyway, because there's just no time to nail down either candidate on anything. Nor would it be fair of course, and we don't want to be seen as being unfair to the person vying to run our country (into the ground) because we grill him on one question for a little while.
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:31 AM   #162
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No matter where you stand on what is lower/middle/upper class. I think we can agree that someone like Biden or Bernie that grew up poor, didn't go to Ivy League schools, and haven't used their wealth later in life to make things worse for everyone but the very rich, are still someone we would prefer in office over someone like Mittens or Trump. Or even like the Obamas that were still paying off student loans after entering the White House. I get the point of view of wanting lawmakers that have had more recent experience of knowing what it's like to struggle, and I agree that those people are important to have in the system. What I don't want is someone who has NEVER known what it's like.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:03 AM   #163
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But what in the things e.g. Harris or Warren (or Sanders for that matter) say, or in the policies they propose suggests that they have lost that connection to the lower and middle classes?


A good politician that is representative of its people comes from its people. It’s why we need more women, more black people, more Hispanics, more lgbt people, etc etc. That is Getting voices heard. Elizabeth Warren can have great policies because she put good people around her, no doubt.

But there is a certain bourgeoise about saying “I’m not you but I know what’s best for you.” Of course, a candidate won’t likely be everything in one (and literally can’t be in some cases). But what irked me about the list was that it was literally all of them. That’s our democracy. I want representation that is like me.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:59 AM   #164
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Warren worked herself up from moderate means, and everything in her career as a Professor all the way through to her time as Senator seems to suggest she never lost the connection to this struggle. And certainly also gets that it has become much tougher to work yourself out of poverty and low-income jobs.

I'm sure Warren's policy program is also informed by capable staffers. But so is Bernie's, I'd think. And even Ocasio-Cortez won't come up with all of her ideas just from the brilliance of her own mind. If you decide to become a politician, then naturally you make the decision that you know what's best for others. But if you also know your limitations, then the way to go about it will be to also listen to people to figure out what you can learn from them, and build a team around you that also brings in more experience, expertise and perspectives.

I'm totally with you that the requirements to enter the Senate are making it close to impossible for any non-rich person to enter. And it's a great shame. It prevents the Senate from becoming a more diverse place, and forces the House to try and balancing it out somehow.

While I would also agree that diversity in representation is needed to shape fairer and more inclusive policies, I wouldn't agree with the notion that Warren is necessarily out of touch, just like Ocasio-Cortez is not as qualified to speak about the issues she stands for as she is simply because she has been working low-income jobs, but because she has been studying these very topics as well.

I'm only picking Warren here because from what I've read about her, and seen from her, she strikes me as the last person who is only talking about poverty, working poor, bankruptcy etc. in the abstract.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:47 AM   #165
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You might be only picking on warren for that reason, but the fact that you’re working with her the individual and not instead “this entire group of people” is why I believe you’re missing my point.

This wasn’t a criticism on anyone as an individual.

AOC was highlighted simply because she’s an exception in terms of age. She is a millennial. She won’t last for long before she becomes one of them. That’s not her fault. That’s the critique of the system.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:55 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
The problem with American TV journalists is not that their questions aren't long or detailed enough. The problem is that they just accept anything the interviewee answers and move on, treating their questions more like a list of assignements to get through. Ask the question, hear the answer, and move on. I'm not sure if it's a lack of preparedness, a lack of skill, or deliberate, but it's very frustrating to see.

And since this is the debate, they have no choice but to move on anyway, because there's just no time to nail down either candidate on anything. Nor would it be fair of course, and we don't want to be seen as being unfair to the person vying to run our country (into the ground) because we grill him on one question for a little while.
It also doesn't help that in the few instances where they do try and grill Trump further on a question, he either talks over them, insults them, or just up and ends the interview or briefing or whatever and leaves. I think that's a big reason why a lot of journalists just give up with him after a while, because they know that the conversation isn't going to go anywhere productive.

But still, on a general level, yes, I agree with you that journalists need to needle these people further and not just accept any pat answers they give and move on.

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I'm totally with you that the requirements to enter the Senate are making it close to impossible for any non-rich person to enter. And it's a great shame. It prevents the Senate from becoming a more diverse place, and forces the House to try and balancing it out somehow.
And this is where overturning stuff like Citizens United would be very instrumental in changing that. Amongst all the other changes people keep discussing, another big one that would do wonders is, alongside overturning Citizens United and putting a limit on how much money each candidate is allowed to raise and use, thus making the playing field more even, I also think we desperately need to limit the election season as a whole, kind of the way other countries have shorter election seasons. Every candidate is only allowed to do their campaigning/fundraising and such in a specific amount of time (say, like, three months prior to the election or something like that) and that's it, nothing before and nothing after until the next election rolls around. That would also help make it so people are starting on a more equal footing, and just on a general level, it'd sure make things a hell of a lot less exhausting for voters, too, so we're not all burned out and sick of this craziness by the time the actual election rolls around.

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I would highly recommend hopping on Kyle Griffin's Twitter right now and see the long list of findings in the tax returns. like: Trump claimed in his financial disclosure that he made 439 million. Actually he lost 47 million.
He has several large debts that are in the hundreds of millions coming due over the next 1 to 4 years. etc...
Well, this should make for some fun late night reading, thank you!
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:24 AM   #167
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So the Tulsa rally has had one more lasting effect...causing Brad Parscale to become suicidal.
Everything Trump touches dies, or at least wants to.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:52 AM   #168
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Trump wrote off 70 grand in haircuts. 70 grand for that mess? He should demand a complete refund, let alone a tax deduction.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:18 AM   #169
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https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/0...g-the-country/

It really is the stuff of nightmares.

He has to come up with over $400 million to pay off his personal debts over the next couple of years.

There are a lot of failures at the level of the media, but not following the Trump $ is probably the biggest. Now that the tax returns are in the open, let's see who is going to be calling on those debts and why they hell they would have loaned him $ when no other institution would.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:21 AM   #170
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https://twitter.com/MariaBartiromo/s...21953110888449

Breaking news: NO John durham interim report. No indictments before election - Bartiromo sources.

Wow. So translation. What they found after almost a year of trying was not just totally insufficient to say anything bad about Biden/Obama/Hunter/FBI etc... But it most likely dug up more bad news on Trump. Because they can't even twist what they found to say something bad.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:23 AM   #171
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Trump wrote off 70 grand in haircuts. 70 grand for that mess? He should demand a complete refund, let alone a tax deduction.
https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/st...62783762886657

I actually think this would be a great jab for Biden to throw out there tomorrow night.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:38 AM   #172
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https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/st...62783762886657

I actually think this would be a great jab for Biden to throw out there tomorrow night.
Biden needs to focus on what's at stake in this election. I can't recall any Presidential election with more at stake than this one.

Trump's going to be his usual ridiculous insulting self, giving in to that distraction just plays right into the tax fraudster's strategy.

Honestly I wish Senator Harris was debating Trump tomorrow.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:42 AM   #173
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https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/0...g-the-country/

It really is the stuff of nightmares.

He has to come up with over $400 million to pay off his personal debts over the next couple of years.

There are a lot of failures at the level of the media, but not following the Trump $ is probably the biggest. Now that the tax returns are in the open, let's see who is going to be calling on those debts and why they hell they would have loaned him $ when no other institution would.
He literally needs to stay in the WH in order to avoid criminal prosecution. Sure seems that way to me.

And yes he's beholden to other countries for personal bailouts-just what you want in a President.

What an epic failure, on so many levels. I want out of this nightmare.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:58 AM   #174
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https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/0...g-the-country/

It really is the stuff of nightmares.

He has to come up with over $400 million to pay off his personal debts over the next couple of years.

There are a lot of failures at the level of the media, but not following the Trump $ is probably the biggest. Now that the tax returns are in the open, let's see who is going to be calling on those debts and why they hell they would have loaned him $ when no other institution would.
Failure of the media, yes, but bigger failure of Congressional Democrats for not subpoenaing them the day after they took control of the House (as well as of Robert Mueller for not going after this).
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:02 AM   #175
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Biden needs to focus on what's at stake in this election. I can't recall any Presidential election with more at stake than this one.

Trump's going to be his usual ridiculous insulting self, giving in to that distraction just plays right into the tax fraudster's strategy.

Honestly I wish Senator Harris was debating Trump tomorrow.
I go back and forth on the debates.

On the one hand, Hillary was a good debater and obviously outperformed him in 2016, even with him stalking her around the stage like a Category 5 creep. On the other hand I really think that there were a lot of people watching in 2016 for shits and giggles - let's see what this moron says today, we can all laugh about it in the morning - it was all so hilarious until it wasn't. I don't think anyone is tuning in for some sort of inherent entertainment value. The Trump voters are a lost cause and the rest of the world falls somewhere on the scale of concerned to totally horrified. Trump's immature jabs and insults will also fall flat without a studio audience.

But at the end of the day, we basically have to hope that Biden is coherent and doesn't have any weird thought lapses that the media will obsessively replay.
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:56 AM   #176
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Biden needs to focus on what's at stake in this election. I can't recall any Presidential election with more at stake than this one.

Trump's going to be his usual ridiculous insulting self, giving in to that distraction just plays right into the tax fraudster's strategy.

Honestly I wish Senator Harris was debating Trump tomorrow.
I guess my point is the that the tax thing will come up. Biden needs to hit hard on the new "Scranton vs. Wall St." Theme. That Trump is nearly broke with debts coming due, that he is committing tax fraud, that he is taking huge amounts from foreign countries, and drive home that he wouldn't be approved for security clearance if he were trying to work in the in the government. I also think that a jab about the 70k in hair care, is not only memorable, but something that everyday people will find objectionable and that they can actually relate to, more than "he overestimated this property value, didn't report earnings on this fund," etc...

I think we will hear Joe mainly hit the Scranton vs. Wall St. thing and healthcare, especially around the supreme court questions. And that's where it should be for the most part. You have a completely failed businessman that makes the worst deals and loses all the time, and pays less than you in taxes, and he's trying to take away your healthcare.
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:56 AM   #177
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ook-rick-gates

Of course he did.
And they say a picture is worth 1,000 words..."blech", "incest" and "gross" have to be the first 3 on the list.
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:01 PM   #178
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I go back and forth on the debates.

On the one hand, Hillary was a good debater and obviously outperformed him in 2016, even with him stalking her around the stage like a Category 5 creep. On the other hand I really think that there were a lot of people watching in 2016 for shits and giggles - let's see what this moron says today, we can all laugh about it in the morning - it was all so hilarious until it wasn't. I don't think anyone is tuning in for some sort of inherent entertainment value. The Trump voters are a lost cause and the rest of the world falls somewhere on the scale of concerned to totally horrified. Trump's immature jabs and insults will also fall flat without a studio audience.

But at the end of the day, we basically have to hope that Biden is coherent and doesn't have any weird thought lapses that the media will obsessively replay.
Yeah, it's gonna be odd. But I think this format is going to be a huge plus for Biden. First, he is much better one on one than the huge primary stage debates. And like you said, Trump's only real "moments" are when there is a live audience. When he doesn't get that immediate reaction, I think it will throw him.
I wish that we could sub in Mayor Pete right now, but since we can't, Joe just has to be even, collected, and disciplined and he will do just fine. Trump is the one on trial here. The first debate is always focused on the incumbents record, and Trump's is not a good one. He will be playing defense and Biden can hopefully keep on offense. Trump is also 8 points down nationally and 2-8 points down in the most important swing states. So Trump is the one that has to do something tomorrow to change the trajectory. Biden just needs to hold it.
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:29 PM   #179
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The media will be waiting for Joe to say something stupid, or maybe pause a little too long before speaking and pounce on it.

Media want a horse race.

I have confidence Joe will perform just fine, but under such scrutiny it's impossible that something won't be twisted into a scandal.

I'm not ready for the sniffling
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:43 PM   #180
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So after the Biden camp explicitly said yesterday that if Trump wants to make the debate about urine, he can have it.

Trump today said - Sleepy Joe refuses to take a drug test. I wonder why??

please make it stop
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