US Politics XXIII: Law & Order SOU (Stupid Orange Unit)

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Holy shit now let’s pretend you weren’t trying to be insulting with the term and you entirely intended its use in the literal sense.

Calling someone a jacobin, particularly when you disagree with them, is pejorative and used from the right. It’s the equivalent of calling someone a “commie” or a “fascist” when they’re a socialist or a federalist and you’re looking to highlight there extremism. I shouldn’t have to explain that to you, because we both know you’re using it as an insult, not literally, just by reading everything you wrote there.


i had intended it in the magazine sense from the start. it was meant to be mildly pejorative, another way of saying "Bernie Bro" now that Bernie is out of the race.



I don’t care about some established magazine. Something you seem to be obsessed with. Mother Jones this, WaPo that, Jacobin who gives a shit. Read what’s written and judge for yourself. It’s a gross fallacy to think that the source automatically invalidates the content. You’re focused on peripherals like the age, race, and gender of the author, rather than the sincerity and argument being put forward.


i give a shit because it's important to know your sources and understand who their audience is, because these magazines and newspapers are intended for specific demographics. good work can come from anywhere, absolutely, and the source doesn't invalidate the content, that's true -- nowhere have i claimed otherwise. i think reading a variety of sources is best, and if we're going to go back to that Mother Jones article yet again, let's look at the actual headline:


CRIME AND JUSTICE
DECEMBER 9, 2019
Kamala Was a Cop. Black People Knew It First.
The meme was a lot more than a political smear job by “douchey white guys.”


that is literally all race and class. that's what the article is actually about. it references Black Twitter, and puts it in opposition to Salon. she puts nasty tweets and dank memes in the article. it reinforces a false dichotomy: cops vs. blacks, literally saying Kamala isn't black enough. i don't like the article for many reasons, not least of which is that it repeats the incorrect reason that you also gave for the failure of the Harris campaign: that black people didn't vote (or not vote) for her because she was a cop.

it has some interesting historical background, but it's on the whole a bad article in my opinion.

i'm allowed to have that opinion.

this part, however, is good:

The argument she made during the presidential campaign was that, relative to the larger context of American law enforcement, the outcomes of these negotiations were progressive.

“Kamala is a cop” dispensed with this sort of tortured calculation.

yes. reality, context, and nuance are flattened out in service of a meme. the author calls it "the nuance." bullshit. it's so dismissive and dehumanizing and harmful. i've hated it since it came out. my objection to it is not new.



I can’t express it enough. You’re white, too. The fact that you think you are above another white person else in terms of comprehension of being black is absurd. You have numbers and you have opinion pieces, and those are the language of debate. We don’t have personal experiences. Nobody here is coming off all “white caricature gen xer” with a cuter name about your point of view.


how does the above jive with this:

Try explaining “it’s gotten better so you should accept that maybe your kid’s kid’s kid’s kids won’t have to live in fear and injustice!!!” to the people who can’t tell the damn difference between every damn day of their lives, and don’t give a shit about how they went from position 573 to position 571 when you and I are up in the top 10.

is that really what you think the black experience is?
 
i'm just stunned at how utterly tone-deaf (at best) it is for a white person to seriously make a claim like that right now.



this is like the whole problem right here.

while there are many, many problems that need addressing, i don't think anyone would rather live in 1964. except some straight white guys.

is it so wrong to say such a thing?
 
true, it seems i've forgotten that the overall decline of wages and the explosion in wealth inequality over the past 40+ years is something that only affected straight white guys.
 
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true, it seems i've forgotten that the overall decline of wages and the explosion in wealth inequality in the last 40-ish years is something that only affected straight white guys.



if you'd like to go back to 1964, by all means, i wish you well.

but the argument you're trying to set up is bullshit. i'm not falling for the false choice you're trying to construct.

you can acknowledge that things do get better while at the same time understanding that persistent gaps exist upon racial lines, and that systemic racism plagues all societies and needs addressing. you can also point to, yes, growing wealth inequality as a problem while also noting that lifespans and health outcomes get better, that education is more attainable, and that most people really wouldn't like to trade place with their grandparents who endured the Depression, 60m dead in a catastrophic world war, a cold war between nuclear powers, polio, Jim Crow, and church bombings.

this is the same compression and distortion of reality that's enabled the "Kamala is a cop" to have life and power. sure, it's fun to punch back with a little internet one liner that forces someone to have to pause, and step back, and explain a little bit more because an acknowledgement of progress has been made that somehow must be qualified with a "but still we struggle!" addition, but that's what thinking people do.
 
US Politics XXIII: Law & Order SOU (Stupid Orange Unit)

i had intended it in the magazine sense from the start. it was meant to be mildly pejorative, another way of saying "Bernie Bro" now that Bernie is out of the race.

And your repeated use of the term “bernie bro” is just another example that you are some “white caricature gen exer” or whatever. But nobody is making a name up for you. Yet you demand playing the tribal game. Some people have different views from you, and you can choose to be disregarding and intolerant and assume you know better, or you can just debate with what you have to debate with.











i give a shit because it's important to know your sources and understand who their audience is, because these magazines and newspapers are intended for specific demographics. good work can come from anywhere, absolutely, and the source doesn't invalidate the content, that's true -- nowhere have i claimed otherwise. i think reading a variety of sources is best, and if we're going to go back to that Mother Jones article yet again, let's look at the actual headline:

Obviously the source is still important overall and you should know what you’re ingesting. Fox News is propaganda, but that doesn’t mean every article posted on their website is propaganda. It is absolutely important to scope out what you’re reading, I agree, but you were the one who literally made it about the author’s demographics and subsequently discredited most of the content based upon the source. Thing is, I can find plenty of similar or articles on the topic on sites like WaPo and Politico. Some in agreement and some not. I chose that one to share, and you don’t get to just wag your finger at it because you perceive it to be a source you don’t like. It’s literally an op ed.











that is literally all race and class. that's what the article is actually about. it references Black Twitter, and puts it in opposition to Salon. she puts nasty tweets and dank memes in the article. it reinforces a false dichotomy: cops vs. blacks, literally saying Kamala isn't black enough. i don't like the article for many reasons, not least of which is that it repeats the incorrect reason that you also gave for the failure of the Harris campaign: that black people didn't vote (or not vote) for her because she was a cop.

So what you’re saying is that the opinions expressed by this author are incorrect, there’s no issue of relationship between cops and black people, and your opinion is the only valid one. And whatever op ed you provide on Harris’s performance is the only valid op ed. Really?




it has some interesting historical background, but it's on the whole a bad article in my opinion.



i'm allowed to have that opinion.

Of course you’re allowed to have an opinion. You’re not allowed to tell me about “incorrect reasons” being cited for something you literally have no factual backing for. You’re upset that people are using the term “voting” instead of “supporting”?? Sure. Factually this is not an issue of voting. But no, she didn’t just run out of money and that was that. She never got support, and you’re free to have your opinion on why that is, and you’re free to state your opinion and disagree, but it’s not a fact. It’s an opinion.













how does the above jive with this:







is that really what you think the black experience is?


How do those statements jive with each other? Are you really suggesting that in the latter statement I’m claiming to understand what it’s like to be black? You’re grasping right now. The latter is clearly an understanding not of personal experience but of what people are literally in the streets protesting over right now and expressing with their voices.
 
And your repeated use of the term “bernie bro” is just another example that you are some “white caricature gen exer” or whatever. But nobody is making a name up for you. Yet you demand playing the tribal game. Some people have different views from you, and you can choose to be disregarding and intolerant and assume you know better, or you can just debate with what you have to debate with.


what is a "white caricature Gen Xer?"

again, i haven't used either term in relation to you, or i don't think anyone else in here specifically. however, if it's so offensive, i will try and do better. for what it's worth, i haven't seen "millennial Jacobin" used much elsewhere.

of course people have different views. it's the expression of those views -- often with a lot of aggression, which is more defining than the actual viewpoint -- where the "bro" label seems to apply. of course it's not all Bernie supporters, but let's not pretend that it wasn't a real, actual issue in 2016 and that people had real, actual interactions online with these groups of people.




Obviously the source is still important overall and you should know what you’re ingesting. Fox News is propaganda, but that doesn’t mean every article posted on their website is propaganda. It is absolutely important to scope out what you’re reading, I agree, but you were the one who literally made it about the author’s demographics and subsequently discredited most of the content based upon the source. Thing is, I can find plenty of similar or articles on the topic on sites like WaPo and Politico. Some in agreement and some not. I chose that one to share, and you don’t get to just wag your finger at it because you perceive it to be a source you don’t like. It’s literally an op ed.


i didn't dismiss Mother Jones. i dismissed the op-ed. i'm sure the author knows more than i do, but i didn't agree with her arguments.




So what you’re saying is that the opinions expressed by this author are incorrect, there’s no issue of relationship between cops and black people, and your opinion is the only valid one. And whatever op ed you provide on Harris’s performance is the only valid op ed. Really?

when did i say this? i don't like her op-ed. i disagree with it. i'm allowed to do that. you're then ascribing totalizing viewpoints to me that i have not expressed, that if i disagree with the article, then i must believe that "there's no issue of relationship between cops and black people." defending my opinion doesn't mean that others aren't valid. it just means i'm defending my opinion.




Of course you’re allowed to have an opinion.

right.



You’re not allowed to tell me about “incorrect reasons” being cited for something you literally have no factual backing for. You’re upset that people are using the term “voting” instead of “supporting”?? Sure. Factually this is not an issue of voting. But no, she didn’t just run out of money and that was that. She never got support, and you’re free to have your opinion on why that is, and you’re free to state your opinion and disagree, but it’s not a fact. It’s an opinion.


of course it's my opinion, one shared by the Politico article you shared earlier. i'm not upset -- but it's also true that no one actually voted, and she pulled out for a variety of reasons. money being probably the biggest one, since this is American politics.




How do those statements jive with each other? Are you really suggesting that in the latter statement I’m claiming to understand what it’s like to be black? You’re grasping right now. The latter is clearly an understanding not of personal experience but of what people are literally in the streets protesting over right now and expressing with their voices.


where have i claimed to know what it's like to be black? i haven't. anywhere. telling us about people who "can't tell the damn difference between every damn day" comes much closer to that.
 
what is a "white caricature Gen Xer?"

My sarcastic terminology for you. My point is that nobody is making pejorative names for you based upon your race and age, so I don’t know why you’re doing that.

again, i haven't used either term in relation to you, or i don't think anyone else in here specifically. however, if it's so offensive, i will try and do better. for what it's worth, i haven't seen "millennial Jacobin" used much elsewhere.

It doesn’t matter if you’re using it directly at me or not. I’m left of you in some places and maybe right in other places and maybe up in other places and down in other places. It really doesn’t matter. I don’t like you insistently railing on millennials the same way I don’t like cobl calling Americans dumb and then saying “oh but you’re liberal dude, not you!” You’re casting a net on people you disagree with and using generally demeaning approach. Maybe you’re not talking about me. Maybe it qualifies for Dave and I don’t like that. Maybe it’s not Dave and it’s Peef. I don’t like that. Maybe it’s not Peef and it’s Vlad. I don’t like that. Peef swears by Bernie Sanders, and is dangerously close to what you’re calling a “Bernie bro” and yet fits few if any of the negative stereotypes you forcefully associate with that title.







where have i claimed to know what it's like to be black? i haven't. anywhere. telling us about people who "can't tell the damn difference between every damn day" comes much closer to that.


I haven’t a clue where you’re reading that I said that you claimed to know what it’s like to be black, but I can only reiterate that I’m allowed to share views presented to me by voices that are trying to be heard, and you need to stop fucking suggesting that I’m claiming to understand what it’s like to be black by claiming that I’m listening to black people, it’s getting on my nerves. Yes, black people throughout these protests have made it loud and clear that their lives are not noticeably improving over time and they do not have social justice, and they feel the system fails them and it doesn’t fail us. Is that a radical statement to make? Is it a contested statement to convey, since it’s not my personal experience but that of someone else?
 
US Politics XXIII: Law & Order SOU (Stupid Orange Unit)

I legit don’t see where we’re disagreeing on all that much politically beyond the wisdom of Harris as a VP.

However.

I have been taken aback and finding myself frustrated with you putting words in my mouth that are the exact and extreme opposite of something I don’t agree with. It’s a lot of strawmen.

All I’ve advocated for here is nuance and context and resisting totalizing narratives. And I’ve expressed opinions and defended them. Like how I think “Kamala is a cop” is a bullshit, unfair meme and the reason why we lose elections. It goes hand in hand with “but her emails.” It’s a perfect example of a Left that has emerged since 2016 that I find not just distasteful but actively harmful. I think I’ve said that a lot in here.

Beyond that ... there’s a lot of feelings this week. I feel singnificantly better about the country and humanity after what happened last week. People are in the streets marching for what is right and good and Trump’s numbers are crumbling by the day. We are talking about things (systemic racism) that haven’t been talked about on this scale before. Real reform is coming and could even be bipartisan. What I don’t want is for a bad, politically stupid phrase — Defund The Police — to erode the good things that came out of last week.
 
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How are you genuinely going to conflate “but her emails” with an actual judgment of character associated with her background and accomplishments? “But her emails” was propaganda associated with something that right wing media chose to turn the gain up on and amplify as much as possible. “Kamala is a cop” is a criticism of character associated with facts about Kamala Harris, as a sort of “wolf in sheep’s clothing,” because she tried to brand herself as something different than the “tough on crime” character her record shows.

You know, I never said it was a “totalizing narrative.” I simply said that’s why she would be a tone deaf pick right now. Literally would’ve been fine with her pre-George Floyd, and the criticism of her potential pick as this point is associated with how foolish and tone deaf it would be to challenge the BLM movement with Harris. Regardless of your view on the “Kamala is a cop,” which obviously we disagree, you can’t simply just continue to ignore the reality vs actuality of the situation. If you can see that’s what black millennials probably don’t want (someone who plays for the cops, for real or perceived), and black millennials are the BLM base, why would you challenge that? Do you want BLM to challenge both campaigns, or just one?
 
“But her emails” worked because it played into the central argument against Hillary — she was corrupt and got to play by different rules than everyone else. It’s kind of exactly the same as “Kama is a cop” — it cuts to a core vulnerability, that isn’t actually fair and only works when you strip it of context. But that’s how it works.

I’m more inclined to take your criticism of Bro/Jacobin to heart. Like you, I also get extremely irritated with stereotypes, not least of which are American stereotypes. The “you people” attitude drives me bonkers.

In my mind, because we are talking about expressed political viewpoints, and because Bro/Hacobin seems so specific as a political identity, that it hasn’t struck me as judging someone by their race/gender. I’m not saying “white gays” or “feminists” or whatever.

But it’s clear that these terms are being received in a way I’m not intending so I will try not to use them.
 
the jacobins were responsible for the reign of terror in the french revolution where tens of thousands of people were murdered by the state, so calling someone a jacobin is not all that far off from calling them a stalinist or a bolshevik or a nazi.

it's not some term that a magazine or twitter or whatever made up, it has actual historical meaning.
In this context, I took it to mean a stubborn ideological purist. Seems to mean something different colloquially depending on the country. Obviously its ties to the French Revolution are unflattering regardless.
 
When we talk about life being better than than in 1984 (or whatever), it really doesn't make much sense unless you break it down. In terms of social progress and acceptance, we are infinitely better off. But DaveC has a very real point here.

Let's just take the case of the boomers - if you were entering the workplace between the early 70s and mid-80s in North America, you are certainly financially better off that the same people in this period of time. The house price to income ration was vastly different than it was today. And now somebody will step in with the typical "but interest rates were 18% and not 2.5%" - I'd rather have a high interest rate and a house that costs 1/10th because you can control the amount of interest you ultimately pay. On top of that most boomers had very generous defined benefit pensions plans (properly valuated at about 25% of your annual salary). My generation (I am 40) only has them to the extent they are in the public sector and I doubt my kids' generation will even know what a DBPP is. Then we go to post-secondary education - not only was it cheap/almost free but there was no need to do anything much beyond a simple 3-4 year BA to land a great job. Three of my husband's uncles were members of executive management in one of the big 5 Canadian banks with BAs. Not only did they get their jobs right out of university - they didn't even have to interview for them, worked there for 35-40 years and retired with massive capital gains on stock. Today you need multiple graduate degrees for even an interview, regardless of whether the job that you're performing actually requires you to have 8 years of university-level education. I haven't even touched income inequality or the effect that women entering the professional workforce in the 70s has had.

Now to be fair, the expectations and standard of living of today's millenials has also gone beyond that which would have been comparable in the 70s/80s. Our parents weren't picking up a $5 coffee on the way to work every morning or backpacking in Thailand while having little to no savings. These are trite examples, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge them.
 
I just realized the hilariousness of Trump’s new campaign slogan -Transition to Greatness.

If you have to “transition to greatness” isn’t that a a clear message that your promise to “make America great again” never happened? That if you have “TTG” then things right now are not “great”?

I would hope that someone named Joe will point this out in a debate at some point.
 
So did any one hear that (gak) Stephen Miller is writing drump's speech on racism. Just saw this on democratic undergeound a long time site that I just remembered about last Fri.
Anyway here's one members reply:
4. The speech may delayed
Translation from the original Black Speech of Mordor may take some time.
Heh :applaud:

-shudders- At the thought of SM writing it.
 
Just for a little context.

Trump won my state of TN in 2016 by 26 points.

Latest poll has Trump up 9.

He won Kentucky by 30 points

Latest poll has him up 17

Won Michigan by .3%
Latest poll Trump down 15 points.

Just interesting to see these sort of swings, even in red states.
 
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Things I learned today

Jacobin is not referencing the thought process of someone named Jacob

Yeah, thanks to everyone here who helped explain the Jacobin thing. First thing that came up when I searched the term was a particular kind of bird. But a little further digging did help give context to some of the discussion here, too.

Lance Armstrong was a real douche (I'm catching up on TV I missed over the past two weeks of the world changing)

Ha, same. I was curious about the Lance thing, too, and I'm not even much of a sports person in general. But some of these sports documentaries and series can be kinda interesting. I also watched the recent season of "Dark Side of the Ring"-some fascinating stories in there, too.
 
Is the Lance doc good? I can’t stand him but will watch if it’s well done.
 
It's ok. The stuff about his Mum is even more graphic than you'd expect. Thought it was weird how his Dad was interviewed whilst tubing but I guess it helps explain how Lance got so messed up in the first place.
 
Young voters: Defund the Police. We need to greatly scale back their power and influence. Defunding them will allow you to reinvest that money into education and social services that are desperately needed after decades of austerity, while simultaneously demilitarizing the police.

Joe Biden:

[TWEET]1270691611576500227[/TWEET]
 
I mean you leave out all the other proposals that’s mentioned in the piece. I have to imagine that he’s focusing on smaller police forces vs just giving NYPD another 300 million to their 6 billion budget

Defunding the police is going to backfire in many ways. It plays into Trump’s LAW AND ORDER narrative. Another person who has to be seeing $$$$ is Erik Prince

Don’t think that Trump / Barr / Prince won’t try to maximize the confusion of what’s being asked by making changes now versus a election night issue. They will play defund to mean completely eliminate police (which some people are calling for) and thus a gap exists where private forces will be called in to keep the peace.

Again when you have to add more explaining to your slogan / proposal you’ve lost the message.

Defund the police REALLY means....

You’ve lost already.

People don’t want to think. They don’t want details.
 
i still don't get what you mean by a revolution. be specific. what will you do? how will you enact these reforms? how will you win over people who disagree with you?

i don't find your views revolutionary. i find them maybe leftist, not quite fringe, fueled by outrage and lacking in nuance, but nothing i've never heard of before. it could be your absolutist framing and Manichean outlook that makes these views, in your view, revolutionary.
Nuance often an excuse for mealy-mouthing on issues. It's the same way people glorify "compromise" even when they often admit one side is just holding the other side hostage, and with 40 years of the center being dragged to the side of the hostage takers. I think the greatest sign of maturity in my political views was realizing how often the middle ground was a place for people who wanted nothing more than to look like an "adult in the room."

The first step, as I said, is actually outright stating we want these reforms. The Democratic Party either doesn't want these reforms, or thinks it's responsible and wise to start from a compromise position. No compromise positions. We want to abolish the police. Drastically defunding the police will likely eventually be the compromise position. I understand that. I'm not a fool who thinks we're just going to get rid of police in my lifetime. But you need to start there and make the arguments for it. They're legitimate arguments, even if not necessarily totally feasible.
right. see? that's bullshit.
No, it's true. If you're a police officer, you're either a piece of shit, or covering up for pieces of shit. There are no good police officers. The nature of the position itself is an immoral one.

There are a lot of jobs that get into moral gray areas under capitalism. You can't fault most people for simply wanting to make money to survive. This is different. This makes you a tool for white supremacy, class warfare (on behalf of the wealthy), and valuing property over people. Law enforcement is immoral, and all cops are bastards.
 
I mean you leave out all the other proposals that’s mentioned in the piece. I have to imagine that he’s focusing on smaller police forces vs just giving NYPD another 300 million to their 6 billion budget

Defunding the police is going to backfire in many ways. It plays into Trump’s LAW AND ORDER narrative. Another person who has to be seeing $$$$ is Erik Prince

Don’t think that Trump / Barr / Prince won’t try to maximize the confusion of what’s being asked by making changes now versus a election night issue. They will play defund to mean completely eliminate police (which some people are calling for) and thus a gap exists where private forces will be called in to keep the peace.

Again when you have to add more explaining to your slogan / proposal you’ve lost the message.

Defund the police REALLY means....

You’ve lost already.

People don’t want to think. They don’t want details.
Defund the police means fund other critical things instead. The response to Trump's insane "Law and Order" thing has to be "look at what that law and order policy has led to," not "let's increase the law and order, but more responsibly than him!" It's only because people like Biden aren't willing to make the argument about what it will do, because he loves law enforcement and made the crime bill.

Studies have consistently shown that "reforming" the police in this manner only serves to increase militarization of the police. This policy fucking sucks ass and is exactly the opposite of what people are demanding right now. Once again, Joe Biden shows he is exactly the wrong person for this moment.
 
I mean you leave out all the other proposals that’s mentioned in the piece. I have to imagine that he’s focusing on smaller police forces vs just giving NYPD another 300 million to their 6 billion budget

I agree with you, but then the rest of your post has to apply too - if he has to explain why he is giving MORE $ to already bloated police budgets, that in itself is a policy fail.

From my perspective, nobody seems to be crying out for more $ to flow to the police. If they need additional training or whatever he's proposing, that should come from the demilitarization and the savings to their budgets that will flow from that (not just the purchase of military equipment but the very costly ongoing maintenance of it).
 
Biden's pool of likely voters is deeply divided on even the most foundational issues and it's depressing. Just scanning through this thread, I can already see where a third party divide could easily hand Trump another 4 years.

Two party system is inherently flawed yadda yadda yadda
 
No, it's true. If you're a police officer, you're either a piece of shit, or covering up for pieces of shit. There are no good police officers. The nature of the position itself is an immoral one.



no, it's not true. this is a stupid, childish thing to say and you should be ashamed of yourself.

if you would like to be personally introduced to dozens and dozens of homicide detectives who have solved uncountable murders and given families closure after having loved ones murdered, i'd be happy to send them along to you. you should probably also tell the families of victims that detective who solved said murder, or the PO who stopped a woman from getting beaten to death by her boyfriend that, really, this person is a piece of shit.

i'm not even going to add qualifiers. that would be mealy-mouthed.
 
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