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Old 06-05-2020, 11:19 AM   #161
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You can’t blow up a system by attacking it frontally.
"sostén mi cerveza."

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Old 06-05-2020, 11:56 AM   #162
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Absolute fucking delusional sociopath

“Hopefully George is looking down right now and is saying this is a great thing that’s happening for our country. This is a great day for him. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great, great day in terms of equality,” Trump says, referring to George Floyd at WH event
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:14 PM   #163
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I'm not questioning your explanation here. But if this is the case, why would experts that make these predictions and calculations for a living and should know most about what is happening in the job market, predict 8 million jobs lost? The experts outside of the government are off by 10.5 million?

Are the experts including the people that "should" be counted as unemployed and the government leaving out huge swaths of people by categorizing them in a way to fudge the numbers?
I'm not all in on the specifics as I read about this discrepancy a while ago. Basically, the jobless rate in the monthly employment reports do not accurately reflect reality due to how it is being calculated. In regular times it might be a good indicator, but these are not regular times. As already stated, the unemployment rate does not include people who do not have a job but are not looking for one. And it seems that in these times many who were furloughed during the crisis fit this category as they expect to be employed again once their (previous) company opens again. But they are counted when filing for jobless claims.

So it is not that the government is fudging the numbers, it is that the model used to calculate the numbers is a mismatch right now.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:29 PM   #164
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Absolute fucking delusional sociopath

“Hopefully George is looking down right now and is saying this is a great thing that’s happening for our country. This is a great day for him. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great, great day in terms of equality,” Trump says, referring to George Floyd at WH event
God I'm so glad I didn't see that. What a sick thing to say.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:30 PM   #165
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You need to define “revolution,” first. What is that? What does it look like? It’s difficult to respond directly until you offer more specifics.


As for me, I believe in democracy and I believe in procedure. You can’t blow up a system by attacking it frontally. There are real and intended constraints that have been put there to guard against “revolution” — and they are there to protect both sides (what’s to stop a right wing “revolution”?) In order to be successful, you must accept and understand these restraints and work within them.

I do think things continue to get better, despite setbacks, like the setback we’re living in now. Life is, by every measure and metric better than it was in 1968, let alone 1938 or 1888. And change sticks when it’s achieved legitimately. Social movements like BLM or same-sex marriage have more success in shorter amounts of time than any of the social movements of the past. And I expect them to continue. Same-sex marriage is very nearly settled law — barring some kind of religious right “revolution” — because it is legitimate. It’s safe. It’s a battle that was won over the course of about a decade (although it’s roots are in the AIDS crisis) and it was won thriguh hearts & minds as well as court cases and legislation. No one imposed it by fiat, and you’ll recall that when Gavin Newsome tried to do as much — “whether you like it or not” — we got Prop 8.

These are tactical disagreements — again, I can only assume, because you’re often short on specifics. We likely share 90%+ of the same end goals. I find the tactics you advocate to be much more likely to end in failure and reversal of progress.
I think we've seen that there isn't much there to stop a right wing revolution beyond the simple fact that right wing ideas are not that popular overall. If over half of this country was truly united behind the ideas espoused by the GOP, big business, and military industrial complex, we'd be an explicitly fascist state already.

Things are only improving if you look at things through a narrow lens. Civil rights have improved in the sense that it is now illegal to discriminate in certain ways against minority groups. They find ways around that, most of them economic. And things have unquestionably gotten worse economically since the 1960s. Social issues and technology are the places where we've seen progress and improvement, and even with the latter, that's only if your sole goal is discovery, unmoored from any sort of morality.

I think same-sex marriage is an exception to the rule in some sense. It didn't threaten anyone's pocket book at the end of the day. And it had the unique situation of being made the law of the land once in a sweeping fashion, which allowed people to realize how much it failed to actually threaten their day-to-day lives and give up their fervent opposition. It was unquestionably a good thing to have same-sex marriage become the law of the land. But the opposition was pretty content to give up the ghost when push came to shove. That energy has simply moved elsewhere. For example: by targeting trans people. But it's also moved other, somewhat unrelated places.

Anyway, moving on to some specifics.

My end goal on healthcare is universal healthcare through a single-payer system with the elimination of private insurance companies. And I would strongly argue, with lots of evidence, that the tactic of incrementalism there ends in failure and a reversal of progress.

My end goal on housing and poverty is a revitalized social safety net, guaranteed housing, the elimination of private and charter schools. Housing is healthcare, and a failure to acknowledge that is a failure to understand and attack the problem.

My end goal on foreign policy is an end to interventionist policies and a drastic scaledown of the military. I would strongly argue, with lots of evidence, that the move to proxy wars and drone strikes has been at minimum net neutral, but very likely worse, a failure, and a reversal of progress.

My end goal on labor is the breakup of monopolies and the nationalization of major corporations. A jobs guarantee, a reduction of the work week, a major increase in paid time off, child care, maternity and paternity leave, and ultimately the preparation for a society not built around work, as automation continues to move our society beyond the need to have everyone spend the bulk of their time on their jobs.

My end goal on policing is the abolition of the police. That includes the FBI and the CIA.

My end goal on racial justice is all of the things outlined above, as well as reparations. It's removing our support from Israel so long as they continue their unconscionable and illegal treatment of the Palestinian people.

And my end goal is to state unequivocally those as goals, and not hedge on them and start in compromise positions because they're big and bold compared to the current immoral and unjust system in place. I want to see candidates for office stating all of these things, from the local levels all the way on up. I want people to make the case for them with full confidence and voice and not apologize or play games. I want to see the half-measures called out for being failures and support for them eroded.

So no, I don't think Democrats share the same end goals.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:45 PM   #166
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My end goal on policing is the abolition of the police. That includes the FBI and the CIA.
To what end? So our neighborhoods are patrolled and "protected" by the likes of folks like the McMichaels?
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:47 PM   #167
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I'm generally not crazy over Mayor Bowser, but I'm here for her openly taunting Mango Mussolini.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:48 PM   #168
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Disarmament of the police is a great motion that will institutionalize change.

The FBI doesn’t need to be dismantled. I’m not sure why that’s on your radar.

The CIA has absolutely nothing to do with this.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:51 PM   #169
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I'm generally not crazy over Mayor Bowser, but I'm here for her openly taunting Mango Mussolini.

yes. this is bad ass:

https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2020/...WUf8siRliSNW1c
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:59 PM   #170
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Disarmament of the police is a great motion that will institutionalize change.

The FBI doesn’t need to be dismantled. I’m not sure why that’s on your radar.

The CIA has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I'm in favor of disarmament of police on the condition that it's directly tied to massive gun reform. Short of that? It's a step too far.

Demilitarizing our police? 100% on board, right here right now.

But I don't see how we can have a police force like they do in the UK without also addressing our nation's gun problem.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:59 PM   #171
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Anyway, moving on to some specifics.

My end goal on healthcare is universal healthcare through a single-payer system with the elimination of private insurance companies. And I would strongly argue, with lots of evidence, that the tactic of incrementalism there ends in failure and a reversal of progress.

My end goal on housing and poverty is a revitalized social safety net, guaranteed housing, the elimination of private and charter schools. Housing is healthcare, and a failure to acknowledge that is a failure to understand and attack the problem.

My end goal on foreign policy is an end to interventionist policies and a drastic scaledown of the military. I would strongly argue, with lots of evidence, that the move to proxy wars and drone strikes has been at minimum net neutral, but very likely worse, a failure, and a reversal of progress.

My end goal on labor is the breakup of monopolies and the nationalization of major corporations. A jobs guarantee, a reduction of the work week, a major increase in paid time off, child care, maternity and paternity leave, and ultimately the preparation for a society not built around work, as automation continues to move our society beyond the need to have everyone spend the bulk of their time on their jobs.

My end goal on policing is the abolition of the police. That includes the FBI and the CIA.

My end goal on racial justice is all of the things outlined above, as well as reparations. It's removing our support from Israel so long as they continue their unconscionable and illegal treatment of the Palestinian people.

i've gone through, without having seen your lots of evidence, what i can agree with and what i don't. there's a lot of agreement, but there's also little nuance here, not that this is a good forum for nuance right now. i would imagine there's common ground on many of the strikeout issues. maybe this is helpful. i'm also pretty sure that i would dispute a lot of your evidence, but, again, too much to get into at the moment.





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And my end goal is to state unequivocally those as goals, and not hedge on them and start in compromise positions because they're big and bold compared to the current immoral and unjust system in place. I want to see candidates for office stating all of these things, from the local levels all the way on up. I want people to make the case for them with full confidence and voice and not apologize or play games. I want to see the half-measures called out for being failures and support for them eroded.

So no, I don't think Democrats share the same end goals.

how do you propose to win elections by only supporting politicians who would openly advocate for the objectively unpopular policies you describe?

it seems to me you dislike democracy.

also, i still don't have a definition from you of a "revolution."
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:01 PM   #172
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"sostén mi cerveza."



good luck storming the White House
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:20 PM   #173
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I'm in favor of disarmament of police on the condition that it's directly tied to massive gun reform. Short of that? It's a step too far.

Demilitarizing our police? 100% on board, right here right now.

But I don't see how we can have a police force like they do in the UK without also addressing our nation's gun problem.
And there's the sticking point. We have gone so far down certain roads, it is hard to rectify.
You have a nation with more guns than people. To completely disarm the police would be a dangerous prospect. There's no actual way that guns are banned here in the US, no way they could remove guns from the public.
So I just don't think there is any scenario where the police could not have weapons.

The difference to me is a police officer having a gun, and the police being turned into para-military the last decade or so.
There is sweeping change that needs to happen, much stricter guidelines on what weapons the police can have and how many, and when used, etc... and solid consequences if those guidelines are ever broken.

it's would be an immense undertaking, and one that hopefully would be paired with much much stricter gun laws in the country overall.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:22 PM   #174
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I'm in favor of disarmament of police on the condition that it's directly tied to massive gun reform. Short of that? It's a step too far.

Demilitarizing our police? 100% on board, right here right now.

But I don't see how we can have a police force like they do in the UK without also addressing our nation's gun problem.
The gun problem is an issue, not just in the sense that there are millions of guns and gun owners. Through the overt politicization of the SCOTUS (as well as lower and appeals courts), there are many extreme "stand your ground" laws on the books which exist nowhere else in the common law world.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:25 PM   #175
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If we make any additions to police budgets, it should involve developing curricula for prospective officers. They should be educated in history, anthropology, social work, and humanitarian and racial studies. If you're serving the people, you should learn a thing or two about them.

Prospective teachers have that content embedded into their coursework so their lesson plans will be effective for kids from all socioeconomic backgrounds (my program referred to this as the universal design for learning). If you're carrying a gun and intervening in volatile situations, imagine how much more important your responsibility is.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:35 PM   #176
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I'm in favor of disarmament of police on the condition that it's directly tied to massive gun reform. Short of that? It's a step too far.

Demilitarizing our police? 100% on board, right here right now.

But I don't see how we can have a police force like they do in the UK without also addressing our nation's gun problem.


Agreed.

This solution doesn’t end racism, but it cuts off the oppression associated with imbalanced power and police brutality.

But yes, ultimately everyone needs to disarm. With that being said, police in the UK still have the ability to arm themselves. They don’t have side arms, and if police didn’t have standard arms like that, it’s more likely that they would police by consent and only commit actions that the public approves of.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:36 PM   #177
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If we make any additions to police budgets, it should involve developing curricula for prospective officers. They should be educated in history, anthropology, social work, and humanitarian and racial studies. If you're serving the people, you should learn a thing or two about them.

Prospective teachers have that content embedded into their coursework so their lesson plans will be effective for kids from all socioeconomic backgrounds (my program referred to this as the universal design for learning). If you're carrying a gun and intervening in volatile situations, imagine how much more important your responsibility is.


i applaud this approach. it's exactly what needs to start to happen.

i realize this isn't a popular thing to say this week, and i don't want this to be a "not all cops" post, but i have worked a lot with police departments in the past. sure, there's a few power-tripping assholes who were likely bullies in high school. but most of them are middle class guys (usually, some women) who are just trying to do their job, and want to do it well. some of them are very smart. and the really do see awful, awful things on a daily basis, and are plagued with their own set of social/health issues even long after retirement. no, it isn't an easy job. yes, they often do wonderful work and many times solve actual crimes through good work and bring some sense of closure to the families of victims.

you've suggested a great reframe that can effectively harnessing the good impulses that inspire people to go into law enforcement.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:59 PM   #178
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:11 PM   #179
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A major hurdle to police reform, and one that will be an incredibly dicey one for the left to tackle, are the police unions.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:13 PM   #180
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