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Old 06-22-2020, 08:20 AM   #781
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I guess the right thinks the media should be showing this side of Trump rallies, so hey, who am I to argue?

https://twitter.com/DeplorableChoir/...034358274?s=19
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Old 06-22-2020, 09:16 AM   #782
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This was unnecessarily mean

https://twitter.com/Staff7998/status...639549968?s=19
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Old 06-22-2020, 09:38 AM   #783
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The only black Nascar driver gets a noose placed in his garage stall. Because he wore a Black Lives Matter shirt and put the words on his car? And of course just because he's black. Probably anger about Nascar getting rid of the Confederate flag too.

Goes even beyond politics, but this is the disgusting state of affairs under orange in chief. MAGA.
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Old 06-22-2020, 09:59 AM   #784
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Same people who put the noose there would probably say that the confederate flag and statues are “about heritage, not hate!”
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Old 06-22-2020, 10:06 AM   #785
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I for one can't believe that there are racists involved in NASCAR
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Old 06-22-2020, 10:36 AM   #786
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He said he wouldn't vote for Biden. He said he would figure out a conservative Republican to write in.

Himself?
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Old 06-22-2020, 10:40 AM   #787
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i'm all for toppling Confederate statues and tossing them into museums.

but, for the love of god, why are you tearing down statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt?

i feel the same way about Churchill statues.

it's this puritanical inanity that costs us elections.
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Old 06-22-2020, 10:58 AM   #788
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tearing down grant's statue is maybe taking it a bit far (the roosevelt one is being taken down specifically because of the way africans and native americans are depicted in a patronizing way on it), but churchill was unquestionably a murdering racist colonizer who deliberately let millions of bengalis starve, and every single one of his statues deserves to be smashed (preferably by south asians and/or africans).
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:07 AM   #789
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i'm all for toppling Confederate statues and tossing them into museums.

but, for the love of god, why are you tearing down statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt?

i feel the same way about Churchill statues.

it's this puritanical inanity that costs us elections.


Cause god damn it Grant was gifted a slave!!! Doesn’t matter the details.

And would need to look up more details but are people in the Seattle “free” zone really setting up segregation zones ? I saw videos online with white people standing guard over a “only blacks zone”. When asked what it takes to get in the requirements are that you have black ancestry, have been a victim of oppression, etc

Again i don’t know if this is true but if so, you’re proving yourself to be so anti racist that you separate people by the color of their skin ?
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:21 AM   #790
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tearing down grant's statue is maybe taking it a bit far (the roosevelt one is being taken down specifically because of the way africans and native americans are depicted in a patronizing way on it), but churchill was unquestionably a murdering racist colonizer who deliberately let millions of bengalis starve, and every single one of his statues deserves to be smashed (preferably by south asians and/or africans).


i suppose it is too much for people to hold complex views of complicated historical figures, and to understand the difference between slave traders, actual loser traitors, and Antifa prime ministers who also did some terrible things.
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:34 AM   #791
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:37 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i'm all for toppling Confederate statues and tossing them into museums.

but, for the love of god, why are you tearing down statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt?

i feel the same way about Churchill statues.

it's this puritanical inanity that costs us elections.
I was puzzled by the Roosevelt statue at first -buf they're merely replacing the statue vs. tearing it down, and it has the full support of Teddy's ancestors. It also has nothing to do with Teddy, rather how a native American and a former slave are shown in the statue.
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:47 AM   #793
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I was puzzled by the Roosevelt statue at first -buf they're merely replacing the statue vs. tearing it down, and it has the full support of Teddy's ancestors. It also has nothing to do with Teddy, rather how a native American and a former slave are shown in the statue.


If a new, better statue goes up, I’m fine with that.
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:57 AM   #794
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If a new, better statue goes up, I’m fine with that.
That's supposedly the plan.
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Old 06-22-2020, 12:02 PM   #795
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The Times said Futter “made a point of saying that the museum was only taking issue with the statue itself, not with Roosevelt overall”.

“It’s very important to note that our request is based on the statue, that is the hierarchical composition that’s depicted in it,” she said. “It is not about Theodore Roosevelt who served as governor of New York before becoming the 26th president of the United States and was a pioneering conservationist.”
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Old 06-22-2020, 12:21 PM   #796
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i suppose it is too much for people to hold complex views of complicated historical figures, and to understand the difference between slave traders, actual loser traitors, and Antifa prime ministers who also did some terrible things.
It's a really tricky situation. You've seen statues of Julius Caesar toppled - at some point we have to ask what is part of our cultural heritage and maybe preserve some in museums/galleries versus what has little artistic value and is prominently displayed in places where the public gathers and does little more than stir up controversy.

We in the west also don't really understand the effects of colonialism in other parts of the world. What the British did in the Indian subcontinent was repulsive and not talked about enough. If people in India our South Africa don't want statues of Winston Churchill to be up, then we should defer to them. Arguing against it is nothing more than semantics to us, but to them it represents ongoing inequalities and strife within their society.
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Old 06-22-2020, 12:43 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i'm all for toppling Confederate statues and tossing them into museums.

but, for the love of god, why are you tearing down statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt?

i feel the same way about Churchill statues.

it's this puritanical inanity that costs us elections.


Churchill was notoriously racist. Churchill can basically be understood as modern day republican warhawk racist. He’s beloved because of the time in which he led and how effective he was during that time, but if it were any other time he would assuredly be hated.

Grant is not my area of understanding or knowledge.

Roosevelt is a maybe more challenging argument, but I think that was covered regarding the statue itself. Plus he was an imperialist.
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Old 06-22-2020, 02:27 PM   #798
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Plus he was an imperialist.


and this is where i would push back a bit.

yes. imperialism was bad. yes, Roosevelt was an imperialist, and bad at it, which is why the US was never a colonialist nation to the degree that the great European powers were. we were bad at it. we can learn that when we study Roosevelt. we can realize that people were products of their time, and use that to denote the real progress we have made as a species.

as i now understand the issue, i am fine with replacing the present statue which is indeed very White Man's Burden, but we shouldn't cancel Teddy Roosevelt.

i wouldn't have a problem with a Churchill statue toppled in Kolkata, but in London? is that also not offensive to those who survived the Blitz?

there's a huge difference between Roosevelt and monuments to the confederacy. i have no problems with commemorating the southern war dead, or the ordinary conscripted Confederate soldier who likely had little choice in much of anything.

i'm just asking for good judgment, and for people to think a little, and use the past as a way of learning. i have no problems with the Jefferson Memorial in DC, it's one of my favorite places in the city, the writings are truly trippy and mind-expanding. i can honor that while at the same time condemn his owning of other human beings. if we are talking about the US, specifically, i think we need to start understanding slavery as more analogous to Nazi Germany than to "that's the way it was." Juneteenth absolutely should be a national holiday. we need more memorials to enslaved human beings. we need to understand plantations as akin to concentration camps characterize by terror, rape, and assault. we need to understand the role that free labor played in building the early American economy, and how that wealth was passed along by the few people set up to benefit from that labor. Germany is a wonderful country these days, and it's not without it's problems -- but i've always found them admirable i understanding and owning their past. we need to do a better job understanding the details and legacy of slavery. we need to reckon with the past. i'm very interested in ideas of reparations, symbolic and real, and what that could look like.

toppling statues and cancelling presidents does none of this.
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Old 06-22-2020, 02:35 PM   #799
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I’m not looking to debate it, you just seemed to portray it in a manner that’s not believable.

In my former home in Leicester, they were trying to topple a Gandhi statue. Because Gandhi was racist. My thought... pick your battes right now. Go for Gandhi later, but if you equate Gandhi to Robert E. Lee, you lend legitimacy to false cries about destroying history. And that’s not what this is about.
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Old 06-22-2020, 02:36 PM   #800
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i wouldn't have a problem with a Churchill statue toppled in Kolkata, but in London? is that also not offensive to those who survived the Blitz? .
London, and Britain generally, has a very high number of citizens who hail from the Indian subcontinent. And not only did the British subjugate them on the basis of race, but were indirect causes of wars and then to top it all off formed the Commonwealth which made it relatively easy for people in India/Bangladesh/Pakistan to emigrate to Britain. And then the British had decades of open and hostile racism towards these same people, who largely lived in city ghettos and who, to this day, are often treated as not really British. I mean the whole situation is just awful all around.

I don't know who toppled over the Churchill statue but if it was one of the people hailing from the Indian subcontinent, eh, I'm not losing sleep over it.

(I'm not even going to comment on people from the Indian subcontinent in East Africa or the ones that were shipped to South America).
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