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Old 06-09-2020, 06:10 PM   #381
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TIL that things are better now than they were for my parents and grandparents' generations.

now if you'll excuse me i have to go mow the lawn of the suburban home that i was able to afford with my factory wages and then drive down to the bank to make the final payment on the $4000 loan that paid for my entire university degree.


it's true, things haven't gotten as much better for white guys in the west as they've gotten better for, say, women. or black people. or gays. or developing nations. also, global warming has gotten worse. that's true.

but for everyone else:

https://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/72729...racy-good-news
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:14 PM   #382
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It’s pejorative to call someone a “Jacobin” from the get go. Irvine decided to then make it also a racially related pejorative. And tacked on an age class to it was well, because he doesn’t like millennials.

Using a race related insult to indicate how not-woke that group is about race related issues is some woke-ception from another white man, though.


pejorative? isn't there a whole magazine that calls itself such?

https://jacobinmag.com/

the term comes from a small group of highly woke, highly confrontational people, many of whom i know well and tend to like generally as individuals. it was also trending on Twitter the other day as a bit of a jokey term, so i tossed it into the mix.

their whiteness and relative privilege allows them to focus on issues in a way that many people don't have the luxury of doing, and there's a tendency towards a highly negative worldview that echos Trump voters -- that everything is getting worse. it's not about being not-woke but about presenting as so-woke that it becomes intolerant and tends to view people as identity monoliths rather than individuals.

i like millennials, generally, if we're going to reduce people to such a group. i often defended them at work to older Gen Xers. i never really thought they were as whiney and entitled as advertised, or as not willing to put in the work and demanding of instant success as my bosses would say.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:21 PM   #383
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the jacobins were responsible for the reign of terror in the french revolution where tens of thousands of people were murdered by the state, so calling someone a jacobin is not all that far off from calling them a stalinist or a bolshevik or a nazi.

it's not some term that a magazine or twitter or whatever made up, it has actual historical meaning.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:23 PM   #384
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Voting in a swing state under corrupt republican leaders...



https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1270433009033007106



Many in line said they were there because they had requested absentee ballots and they never received them.


Now imagine this in early November, it’ll be much cooler if not freezing in parts of the country. On top of cold and flu season, we have covid19 potentially showing up in a force greater than we saw in spring.

How many people will stick thru that to vote ? The hope is everyone but i don’t know if i can get mad at someone who gives up under those conditions. It’s just so criminal and inhumane what the GOP are forcing the black community to endure to get the absolute worst human being / racist out of office
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:23 PM   #385
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it's true, things haven't gotten as much better for white guys in the west as they've gotten better for, say, [...] black people.
are you fucking serious?
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:25 PM   #386
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US Politics XXIII: Law & Order SOU (Stupid Orange Unit)

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the jacobins were responsible for the reign of terror in the french revolution where tens of thousands of people were murdered by the state, so calling someone a jacobin is not all that far off from calling them a stalinist or a bolshevik or a nazi.

it's not some term that a magazine or twitter or whatever made up, it has actual historical meaning.


I know.

This actually is what I mean by white milennial Jacobins — the magazine is popular.

Why does the magazine use the term?
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:27 PM   #387
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are you fucking serious?


Can you be more specific?
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:30 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
pejorative? isn't there a whole magazine that calls itself such?



https://jacobinmag.com/



the term comes from a small group of highly woke, highly confrontational people, many of whom i know well and tend to like generally as individuals. it was also trending on Twitter the other day as a bit of a jokey term, so i tossed it into the mix.



their whiteness and relative privilege allows them to focus on issues in a way that many people don't have the luxury of doing, and there's a tendency towards a highly negative worldview that echos Trump voters -- that everything is getting worse. it's not about being not-woke but about presenting as so-woke that it becomes intolerant and tends to view people as identity monoliths rather than individuals.

Holy shit now let’s pretend you weren’t trying to be insulting with the term and you entirely intended its use in the literal sense of a magazine.

Calling someone a jacobin, particularly when you disagree with them, is pejorative and used from the right. It’s the equivalent of calling someone a “commie” or a “fascist” when they’re a socialist or a federalist and you’re looking to highlight there extremism. I shouldn’t have to explain that to you, because we both know you’re using it as an insult, not literally, just by reading everything you wrote there.

I don’t care about some established magazine. Something you seem to be obsessed with. Mother Jones this, WaPo that, Jacobin who gives a shit. Read what’s written and judge for yourself. It’s a gross fallacy to think that the source automatically invalidates the content. You’re focused on peripherals like the age, race, and gender of the author, rather than the sincerity and argument being put forward.

I can’t express it enough. You’re white, too. The fact that you think you are above another white person else in terms of comprehension of being black is absurd. You have numbers and you have opinion pieces, and those are the language of debate. We don’t have personal experiences. Nobody here is coming off all “white caricature gen xer” with a cuter name about your point of view.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:36 PM   #389
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Just in general, it’s in awful taste to maliciously group people unless someone should be ashamed to actually be a part of that group.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:37 PM   #390
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Can you be more specific?
i'm just stunned at how utterly tone-deaf (at best) it is for a white person to seriously make a claim like that right now.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:50 PM   #391
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Holy shit now let’s pretend you weren’t trying to be insulting with the term and you entirely intended its use in the literal sense.

Calling someone a jacobin, particularly when you disagree with them, is pejorative and used from the right. It’s the equivalent of calling someone a “commie” or a “fascist” when they’re a socialist or a federalist and you’re looking to highlight there extremism. I shouldn’t have to explain that to you, because we both know you’re using it as an insult, not literally, just by reading everything you wrote there.

i had intended it in the magazine sense from the start. it was meant to be mildly pejorative, another way of saying "Bernie Bro" now that Bernie is out of the race.



Quote:
I don’t care about some established magazine. Something you seem to be obsessed with. Mother Jones this, WaPo that, Jacobin who gives a shit. Read what’s written and judge for yourself. It’s a gross fallacy to think that the source automatically invalidates the content. You’re focused on peripherals like the age, race, and gender of the author, rather than the sincerity and argument being put forward.

i give a shit because it's important to know your sources and understand who their audience is, because these magazines and newspapers are intended for specific demographics. good work can come from anywhere, absolutely, and the source doesn't invalidate the content, that's true -- nowhere have i claimed otherwise. i think reading a variety of sources is best, and if we're going to go back to that Mother Jones article yet again, let's look at the actual headline:


Quote:
CRIME AND JUSTICE
DECEMBER 9, 2019
Kamala Was a Cop. Black People Knew It First.
The meme was a lot more than a political smear job by “douchey white guys.”

that is literally all race and class. that's what the article is actually about. it references Black Twitter, and puts it in opposition to Salon. she puts nasty tweets and dank memes in the article. it reinforces a false dichotomy: cops vs. blacks, literally saying Kamala isn't black enough. i don't like the article for many reasons, not least of which is that it repeats the incorrect reason that you also gave for the failure of the Harris campaign: that black people didn't vote (or not vote) for her because she was a cop.

it has some interesting historical background, but it's on the whole a bad article in my opinion.

i'm allowed to have that opinion.

this part, however, is good:

Quote:
The argument she made during the presidential campaign was that, relative to the larger context of American law enforcement, the outcomes of these negotiations were progressive.

“Kamala is a cop” dispensed with this sort of tortured calculation.
yes. reality, context, and nuance are flattened out in service of a meme. the author calls it "the nuance." bullshit. it's so dismissive and dehumanizing and harmful. i've hated it since it came out. my objection to it is not new.



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I can’t express it enough. You’re white, too. The fact that you think you are above another white person else in terms of comprehension of being black is absurd. You have numbers and you have opinion pieces, and those are the language of debate. We don’t have personal experiences. Nobody here is coming off all “white caricature gen xer” with a cuter name about your point of view.

how does the above jive with this:

Quote:
Try explaining “it’s gotten better so you should accept that maybe your kid’s kid’s kid’s kids won’t have to live in fear and injustice!!!” to the people who can’t tell the damn difference between every damn day of their lives, and don’t give a shit about how they went from position 573 to position 571 when you and I are up in the top 10.
is that really what you think the black experience is?
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:54 PM   #392
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i'm just stunned at how utterly tone-deaf (at best) it is for a white person to seriously make a claim like that right now.


this is like the whole problem right here.

while there are many, many problems that need addressing, i don't think anyone would rather live in 1964. except some straight white guys.

is it so wrong to say such a thing?
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:58 PM   #393
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true, it seems i've forgotten that the overall decline of wages and the explosion in wealth inequality over the past 40+ years is something that only affected straight white guys.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:08 PM   #394
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true, it seems i've forgotten that the overall decline of wages and the explosion in wealth inequality in the last 40-ish years is something that only affected straight white guys.


if you'd like to go back to 1964, by all means, i wish you well.

but the argument you're trying to set up is bullshit. i'm not falling for the false choice you're trying to construct.

you can acknowledge that things do get better while at the same time understanding that persistent gaps exist upon racial lines, and that systemic racism plagues all societies and needs addressing. you can also point to, yes, growing wealth inequality as a problem while also noting that lifespans and health outcomes get better, that education is more attainable, and that most people really wouldn't like to trade place with their grandparents who endured the Depression, 60m dead in a catastrophic world war, a cold war between nuclear powers, polio, Jim Crow, and church bombings.

this is the same compression and distortion of reality that's enabled the "Kamala is a cop" to have life and power. sure, it's fun to punch back with a little internet one liner that forces someone to have to pause, and step back, and explain a little bit more because an acknowledgement of progress has been made that somehow must be qualified with a "but still we struggle!" addition, but that's what thinking people do.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:09 PM   #395
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i had intended it in the magazine sense from the start. it was meant to be mildly pejorative, another way of saying "Bernie Bro" now that Bernie is out of the race.
And your repeated use of the term “bernie bro” is just another example that you are some “white caricature gen exer” or whatever. But nobody is making a name up for you. Yet you demand playing the tribal game. Some people have different views from you, and you can choose to be disregarding and intolerant and assume you know better, or you can just debate with what you have to debate with.











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i give a shit because it's important to know your sources and understand who their audience is, because these magazines and newspapers are intended for specific demographics. good work can come from anywhere, absolutely, and the source doesn't invalidate the content, that's true -- nowhere have i claimed otherwise. i think reading a variety of sources is best, and if we're going to go back to that Mother Jones article yet again, let's look at the actual headline:
Obviously the source is still important overall and you should know what you’re ingesting. Fox News is propaganda, but that doesn’t mean every article posted on their website is propaganda. It is absolutely important to scope out what you’re reading, I agree, but you were the one who literally made it about the author’s demographics and subsequently discredited most of the content based upon the source. Thing is, I can find plenty of similar or articles on the topic on sites like WaPo and Politico. Some in agreement and some not. I chose that one to share, and you don’t get to just wag your finger at it because you perceive it to be a source you don’t like. It’s literally an op ed.











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that is literally all race and class. that's what the article is actually about. it references Black Twitter, and puts it in opposition to Salon. she puts nasty tweets and dank memes in the article. it reinforces a false dichotomy: cops vs. blacks, literally saying Kamala isn't black enough. i don't like the article for many reasons, not least of which is that it repeats the incorrect reason that you also gave for the failure of the Harris campaign: that black people didn't vote (or not vote) for her because she was a cop.
So what you’re saying is that the opinions expressed by this author are incorrect, there’s no issue of relationship between cops and black people, and your opinion is the only valid one. And whatever op ed you provide on Harris’s performance is the only valid op ed. Really?




Quote:
it has some interesting historical background, but it's on the whole a bad article in my opinion.



i'm allowed to have that opinion.
Of course you’re allowed to have an opinion. You’re not allowed to tell me about “incorrect reasons” being cited for something you literally have no factual backing for. You’re upset that people are using the term “voting” instead of “supporting”?? Sure. Factually this is not an issue of voting. But no, she didn’t just run out of money and that was that. She never got support, and you’re free to have your opinion on why that is, and you’re free to state your opinion and disagree, but it’s not a fact. It’s an opinion.













Quote:
how does the above jive with this:







is that really what you think the black experience is?

How do those statements jive with each other? Are you really suggesting that in the latter statement I’m claiming to understand what it’s like to be black? You’re grasping right now. The latter is clearly an understanding not of personal experience but of what people are literally in the streets protesting over right now and expressing with their voices.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:22 PM   #396
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And your repeated use of the term “bernie bro” is just another example that you are some “white caricature gen exer” or whatever. But nobody is making a name up for you. Yet you demand playing the tribal game. Some people have different views from you, and you can choose to be disregarding and intolerant and assume you know better, or you can just debate with what you have to debate with.

what is a "white caricature Gen Xer?"

again, i haven't used either term in relation to you, or i don't think anyone else in here specifically. however, if it's so offensive, i will try and do better. for what it's worth, i haven't seen "millennial Jacobin" used much elsewhere.

of course people have different views. it's the expression of those views -- often with a lot of aggression, which is more defining than the actual viewpoint -- where the "bro" label seems to apply. of course it's not all Bernie supporters, but let's not pretend that it wasn't a real, actual issue in 2016 and that people had real, actual interactions online with these groups of people.




Quote:
Obviously the source is still important overall and you should know what you’re ingesting. Fox News is propaganda, but that doesn’t mean every article posted on their website is propaganda. It is absolutely important to scope out what you’re reading, I agree, but you were the one who literally made it about the author’s demographics and subsequently discredited most of the content based upon the source. Thing is, I can find plenty of similar or articles on the topic on sites like WaPo and Politico. Some in agreement and some not. I chose that one to share, and you don’t get to just wag your finger at it because you perceive it to be a source you don’t like. It’s literally an op ed.

i didn't dismiss Mother Jones. i dismissed the op-ed. i'm sure the author knows more than i do, but i didn't agree with her arguments.




Quote:
So what you’re saying is that the opinions expressed by this author are incorrect, there’s no issue of relationship between cops and black people, and your opinion is the only valid one. And whatever op ed you provide on Harris’s performance is the only valid op ed. Really?
when did i say this? i don't like her op-ed. i disagree with it. i'm allowed to do that. you're then ascribing totalizing viewpoints to me that i have not expressed, that if i disagree with the article, then i must believe that "there's no issue of relationship between cops and black people." defending my opinion doesn't mean that others aren't valid. it just means i'm defending my opinion.




Quote:
Of course you’re allowed to have an opinion.
right.



Quote:
You’re not allowed to tell me about “incorrect reasons” being cited for something you literally have no factual backing for. You’re upset that people are using the term “voting” instead of “supporting”?? Sure. Factually this is not an issue of voting. But no, she didn’t just run out of money and that was that. She never got support, and you’re free to have your opinion on why that is, and you’re free to state your opinion and disagree, but it’s not a fact. It’s an opinion.

of course it's my opinion, one shared by the Politico article you shared earlier. i'm not upset -- but it's also true that no one actually voted, and she pulled out for a variety of reasons. money being probably the biggest one, since this is American politics.




Quote:
How do those statements jive with each other? Are you really suggesting that in the latter statement I’m claiming to understand what it’s like to be black? You’re grasping right now. The latter is clearly an understanding not of personal experience but of what people are literally in the streets protesting over right now and expressing with their voices.

where have i claimed to know what it's like to be black? i haven't. anywhere. telling us about people who "can't tell the damn difference between every damn day" comes much closer to that.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:40 PM   #397
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what is a "white caricature Gen Xer?"



My sarcastic terminology for you. My point is that nobody is making pejorative names for you based upon your race and age, so I don’t know why you’re doing that.

Quote:
again, i haven't used either term in relation to you, or i don't think anyone else in here specifically. however, if it's so offensive, i will try and do better. for what it's worth, i haven't seen "millennial Jacobin" used much elsewhere.
It doesn’t matter if you’re using it directly at me or not. I’m left of you in some places and maybe right in other places and maybe up in other places and down in other places. It really doesn’t matter. I don’t like you insistently railing on millennials the same way I don’t like cobl calling Americans dumb and then saying “oh but you’re liberal dude, not you!” You’re casting a net on people you disagree with and using generally demeaning approach. Maybe you’re not talking about me. Maybe it qualifies for Dave and I don’t like that. Maybe it’s not Dave and it’s Peef. I don’t like that. Maybe it’s not Peef and it’s Vlad. I don’t like that. Peef swears by Bernie Sanders, and is dangerously close to what you’re calling a “Bernie bro” and yet fits few if any of the negative stereotypes you forcefully associate with that title.







Quote:
where have i claimed to know what it's like to be black? i haven't. anywhere. telling us about people who "can't tell the damn difference between every damn day" comes much closer to that.

I haven’t a clue where you’re reading that I said that you claimed to know what it’s like to be black, but I can only reiterate that I’m allowed to share views presented to me by voices that are trying to be heard, and you need to stop fucking suggesting that I’m claiming to understand what it’s like to be black by claiming that I’m listening to black people, it’s getting on my nerves. Yes, black people throughout these protests have made it loud and clear that their lives are not noticeably improving over time and they do not have social justice, and they feel the system fails them and it doesn’t fail us. Is that a radical statement to make? Is it a contested statement to convey, since it’s not my personal experience but that of someone else?
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:41 PM   #398
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And for the record I would defend you if someone started calling you names to mock your views/race/age/sexuality, too.
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:57 PM   #399
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I legit don’t see where we’re disagreeing on all that much politically beyond the wisdom of Harris as a VP.

However.

I have been taken aback and finding myself frustrated with you putting words in my mouth that are the exact and extreme opposite of something I don’t agree with. It’s a lot of strawmen.

All I’ve advocated for here is nuance and context and resisting totalizing narratives. And I’ve expressed opinions and defended them. Like how I think “Kamala is a cop” is a bullshit, unfair meme and the reason why we lose elections. It goes hand in hand with “but her emails.” It’s a perfect example of a Left that has emerged since 2016 that I find not just distasteful but actively harmful. I think I’ve said that a lot in here.

Beyond that ... there’s a lot of feelings this week. I feel singnificantly better about the country and humanity after what happened last week. People are in the streets marching for what is right and good and Trump’s numbers are crumbling by the day. We are talking about things (systemic racism) that haven’t been talked about on this scale before. Real reform is coming and could even be bipartisan. What I don’t want is for a bad, politically stupid phrase — Defund The Police — to erode the good things that came out of last week.
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Old 06-09-2020, 08:08 PM   #400
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How are you genuinely going to conflate “but her emails” with an actual judgment of character associated with her background and accomplishments? “But her emails” was propaganda associated with something that right wing media chose to turn the gain up on and amplify as much as possible. “Kamala is a cop” is a criticism of character associated with facts about Kamala Harris, as a sort of “wolf in sheep’s clothing,” because she tried to brand herself as something different than the “tough on crime” character her record shows.

You know, I never said it was a “totalizing narrative.” I simply said that’s why she would be a tone deaf pick right now. Literally would’ve been fine with her pre-George Floyd, and the criticism of her potential pick as this point is associated with how foolish and tone deaf it would be to challenge the BLM movement with Harris. Regardless of your view on the “Kamala is a cop,” which obviously we disagree, you can’t simply just continue to ignore the reality vs actuality of the situation. If you can see that’s what black millennials probably don’t want (someone who plays for the cops, for real or perceived), and black millennials are the BLM base, why would you challenge that? Do you want BLM to challenge both campaigns, or just one?
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