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Old 04-09-2020, 11:25 AM   #961
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Originally Posted by Jerry Dunk View Post
If you guys aren't willing to listen and just want to keep pretending you didn't read what I said, there's not much more to discuss here.
I've tried to engage you in good faith.

I disagree with much of what you wrote explaining why the youth did not vote. Many of those factors affect other age groups (working people of all ages have trouble voting on a workday but other age groups voted in pretty high numbers outside of Iowa, long line ups to vote disproportionately affect minority communities but they showed up in high numbers and overwhelmingly voted for Biden and so on). I think that you're unwilling to accept that your view is either a minority view, as reflected in voting patterns, or it is a majority view among your generation but they have shown in every election in decades now that they are disengaged, that they can talk the talk on Twitter and social media but when it comes down to it they're not willing to stand in line as long as a 50-year-old inner city black woman who has probably on the whole experienced 10x the voting suppression methods that you have. So if your generation isn't even willing to do something that frankly is not very hard at all (vote) when more disenfranchised groups are, then how is it going to fundamentally change the country as a whole?

It's time to ask those hard questions.

Much like on a separate vein, it's time for Americans to have a more open reckoning with the fact that Trump is just a symptom of a much larger problem. That a significant part of the American population is racist, isolationist, cares nothing about their fellow man outside their comfort zone, is open to violence and God knows what else. A lot of people are naively operating on the notion that if only Trump were gone, things could go back to normal. Hello...
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:44 AM   #962
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Trump is already trying to play Bernie supporters like a fiddle. Twelve percent of them are said to have voted for Trump last time. Any Bernie supporter who votes for Trump this time, after seeing what he has wrought on this country, is a pathetic selfish idiot. And that's being kind.

He is the polar opposite of every ideal that Bernie stands for.
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:51 AM   #963
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There seems to be an underlying suggestion from some of you that being disaffected with the way the dem nomination played out is some kind of ethical or intellectual failing. Maybe its an institutional issue instead. There are a significant number of people feeling like Jerry, and I don't see how it's helpful or politically strategic to brush them off as though they are just too naive to understand the beauty of centrism or something.

Biden is likely to lose this election. And when he does, the democratic party is going to have to have a serious reckoning with how it engages those who identify as progressive.
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:06 PM   #964
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Trump is already trying to play Bernie supporters like a fiddle. Twelve percent of them are said to have voted for Trump last time. Any Bernie supporter who votes for Trump this time, after seeing what he has wrought on this country, is a pathetic selfish idiot. And that's being kind.

He is the polar opposite of every ideal that Bernie stands for.
25% of clinton voters in the 2008 primary voted for john mccain.

are they all pathetic selfish idiots too?
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:19 PM   #965
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There seems to be an underlying suggestion from some of you that being disaffected with the way the dem nomination played out is some kind of ethical or intellectual failing. Maybe its an institutional issue instead. There are a significant number of people feeling like Jerry, and I don't see how it's helpful or politically strategic to brush them off as though they are just too naive to understand the beauty of centrism or something.

Biden is likely to lose this election. And when he does, the democratic party is going to have to have a serious reckoning with how it engages those who identify as progressive.
I agree that the entire primary process is flawed for a number of reasons.

I've also stated from the very beginning that Biden is senile and a terrible choice and I do not think that he can beat Trump. Now with COVID-19, things are unpredictable and I have no idea how anything shakes out as November may as well be a lifetime away. But generally speaking, I think that Biden is a bad nominee. I also didn't think that Bernie was a good nominee and I don't think that he could have won.

Unfortunately Americans appear to be not ready for an intelligent and capable woman so here we are.
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:36 PM   #966
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If you guys aren't willing to listen and just want to keep pretending you didn't read what I said, there's not much more to discuss here.
It is hard to discuss when you make it seem like Biden and Trump are equal in some way. How would Biden cause people to "lose" healthcare? So far under Trump, millions of people have lost coverage. And he's actively working to kick 20 million more off.
At worst Biden's his plan, if it gets passed, would bring in about 6 million more people for coverage.

So I know it's hard to swallow not getting the M4A that of course would cover everyone. I get that. But I think you need to at least allow for the very simple fact that Biden will be light years better than Trump on every measure, from healthcare to climate to gun restrictions, to taxing of higher earners, etc... Those things will only get worse, maybe much much worse under Trump, and will most likely (depending on the Senate and courts) improve under Biden.

To borrow a Bernie phrase, I don't think that is a radical concept.
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:53 PM   #967
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25% of clinton voters in the 2008 primary voted for john mccain.

are they all pathetic selfish idiots too?
Well that was a primary. This is a general election to try to get rid of Trump. Honestly I don't remember much about 2008, seems like a lifetime ago.

And I can't compare Trump to McCain at all. Everything compared to Trump is an outlier as far as I'm concerned. For me Trump is like no President we've ever seen, and not in a good way.

Bernie supporters can vote for Trump all they want. They lose all credibility for me as far as what they say they stand for and what they believe in.

I've already said that I can't vote for Biden because of this rape allegation. Unless that's completely disproved I don't know what I'm going to do. Sure as hell not voting for Trump.
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:58 PM   #968
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To a lot of people in this country it's a cult of Liberty. Liberty = do whatever i want

A very selfish, greedy population. Throw in racist and sexist. These latter too seem to have kept the population full for a long time.

That's all really be changed with Obama. Trump jumped on that rage with Birthirism, and it's completely gone off the rails now with Q.

This country is never going to see giant sweeping changes. Those of us that value progress, compassion, the greater good are going to have to accept patience and compromise to achieve goals.

We may have lost all of that with Trump
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:05 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
25% of clinton voters in the 2008 primary voted for john mccain.

are they all pathetic selfish idiots too?
Well, that would something if it were true.

But this is a false talking point making the rounds.

Actually


According to exit polls on Election Day, McCain won the votes of only 10% of Democrats nationwide, the same percentage of Democrats' votes that George W. Bush won in 2004.

The actual results regarding Clinton primary voters, according to exit polling, were that 84% of Hillary voters went for Obama, and 15% for McCain, 1% Other/NV.

In 2016 12% of Bernie voters voted for Trump, and 14% voted for 3rd party/other
bringing that to 26%
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:51 PM   #970
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Sarah has been pretty spot on since the beginning.


https://twitter.com/sarahkendzior/st...151952386?s=21
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:45 PM   #971
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
There seems to be an underlying suggestion from some of you that being disaffected with the way the dem nomination played out is some kind of ethical or intellectual failing. Maybe its an institutional issue instead. There are a significant number of people feeling like Jerry, and I don't see how it's helpful or politically strategic to brush them off as though they are just too naive to understand the beauty of centrism or something.

Biden is likely to lose this election. And when he does, the democratic party is going to have to have a serious reckoning with how it engages those who identify as progressive.


I don’t think Biden is likely to lose the election. It’s too much to go in on here, but there are many, many reasons for voters to be optimistic. The GOP knows this and will cheat any way that they can.

I also wouldn’t extrapolate too much from what’s going on in here. I am aghast that the most continually morally outraged poster who thinks everyone but Bernie is human garbage/complicit in murder isn’t willing to do the one thing he can that would actually make the world a better place. It’s not about the goodness of centrism. It’s about literally lifting one finger to do something to help people.

Think about how close it was. Literally every vote in swing states will count. If someone lives in California or Wyoming, go ahead, make your little Susan Sarandon point. But know that people making the same point in 2016 gave Trump the election.

I don’t engage the Bernie-based tantrums I see in other parts of social media. This is where I come to vent. And I mostly keep my mouth shut in other parts of life.
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:58 PM   #972
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This is going to be entirely too long.

Some time away from this place from time to time is good for the mental health. I highly recommend it.
But at the same time – I did miss it. Moved tapatalk off my home screen on my phone, but after a few days found myself occasionally lurking like a creeper. Shit I’ve been here for 20 years. Hard to go cold turkey.

The other day I started going back through old posts. Like really old posts – back in the beginning times. I was looking for one exchange in particular – something from 2012 that I still remember – that resonated with me and pushed me over the edge from a purplish, both parties suck guy to a blue voter.
I also went back to the start – and holy fuck it’s embarrassing to read my FYM posts between 2000 and 2005. Like honest to god horrifying to think about. In a way it’s also good, though. It reminds me of just how much personal experience shapes your beliefs. And also reminds me of how much people’s opinions can change – and how dumb it is to hold them to the fire over their thought process from 2 or 3 decades earlier – like has been done a million times this election cycle – vs. what they believe now.

I was in a fairly dark place in my early 20s. Sparing the gory details – but some shit went down around late 2001-early 2002 that really fucked me up (beyond the obvious events of the world and my home city at the time). It was no fault of my own, but I blamed myself anyways and questioned everything about who I thought I was. I retreated inward – moving back into my parents’ house after college – where my dad listened constantly to conservative talk radio and the newest hit – Fox News.. I was battling depression and spending the majority of time locked away in my room on the computer. In another world, at another time? I could see myself being sucked down that MAGA worm hole. My political posts from the early 2000s clearly reflect that.

This time period is also around the time I dove headfirst into Interference. To say Interference, and in the greater sense U2 and the U2 fan community saved my life is not an exaggeration. While I cut off my circle of friends in the outside to a select few around 2000 – this place, and the greater community as a whole gave me an outlet. (Side note - thank the fuck that reddit didn’t exist then).

2006 was the turning point for me in many ways. I hit rock bottom towards the end of 2005 and started a slow climb in the opposite direction. Things started turning more to the positive (albeit with a lot of work to do). Got a new, better job – moved out – and most importantly got some help. Shit still pops up here and there, but generally in a much better place.

Whether coincidental or not, this also coincided with my shift away from right wing politics. I was in a better place personally, and the party that I supported – mostly because of my environment – was responsible for dueling atrocities – Iraq and Katrina. Honestly it took Katrina to open up my eyes. After that, it was much easier to accept that we were lied to about the WMDs in Iraq. That they took advantage of our raw emotions over 9/11 to push ahead with a needless war.

Shifted from registered republican to “both parties suck” and “I’m socially liberal, fiscally conservative” for the next few years. Hadn’t fully abandoned the republican party just yet. Even voted red a few times – including 2012. I voted for Obama in 2008, but was willing to (and did) go back to the republicans with Romney in 2012 as I didn’t think Obama had handled the economy well in his first term, and Romney was enough in that purple territory to make sense to me.

And it was around this time – a couple of days before the election – that I found the exchange I was looking for. While yes, I voted red for president that month – I haven’t voted red since. And it was a pretty simple argument, and one that should have made more sense from the start – but simple, TV talking points guy never really looked at it that way prior to that.

https://www.u2interference.com/forum...ml#post7590432

It was ultimately the final turning point for me from purple to blue – even if I may be more towards the right of the blue spectrum, and It was as true then as it is today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan
I think the whole "Fuck this, they both suck" attitude is a cop out, personally. No one is asking you to actively like one party. Just pick the one that's better.

The most important question: who do you want nominating SC justices?
I honest to god still come back to this years later.

Just pick the one that’s better. Who do you want nominating SC justices?

All of these guys suck. The system sucks. We all want change. How do we get that change? You’re either shifting people slowly, or you have a revolution. Well shit, the revolution stayed home. So what’s better? Another 4 years of this monstrosity? Or kicking the can a little further down the road and closer to the ultimate end goal?

I support Medicare for All. I don’t support Bernie Sanders because he had an unrealistic vision as to how to get there. Without revolution, it takes coalition building, and yes, that takes compromise. It’s how Obama got ACA passed. It was far from perfect – but here we are 10 years down the road and a one time controversial bill is well liked by a majority of voters across the spectrum, and every democratic candidate – even the more purpley ones – put forth a plan to amend it that would have been shot down as too far left in 2010. Things were progressing the way they needed to be. We’re now at a point where we can decide to continue down that road, or let President Sitting Bullshit take us back 50-70 years.

RBG? She’ll be dead by 2024.

What happens then to abortion rights? To gay marriage? Health Care? Please… any gains will be lost, and then some.

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

No one is asking you to actively like one party, or one candidate.

Just pick the one that’s better.
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Old 04-09-2020, 03:01 PM   #973
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US Politics XXI: Old Man 3-Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post



It's time to ask those hard questions.






the heart of the Democratic party isn't blue Twitter, it's African-American women and increasingly affluent white suburbanites. ili know it's disappointing to not get what you want politically. i was gutted in 2016. i was gutted in 2004. in 2010. i'm old enough to have been aware enough to have been gutted by 1994.



but that's politics. and in politics, like life, you sometimes have to pick the least worst option.





Quote:
Much like on a separate vein, it's time for Americans to have a more open reckoning with the fact that Trump is just a symptom of a much larger problem. That a significant part of the American population is racist, isolationist, cares nothing about their fellow man outside their comfort zone, is open to violence and God knows what else. A lot of people are naively operating on the notion that if only Trump were gone, things could go back to normal. Hello...




i mean, you're not wrong and i agree with you, but let's not pretend that reactionary politics, isolationism, racism, etc., is somehow a uniquely American thing, or that Trump is that much more than an American expression of similar impulses across the world.



no one looks good right now.
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Old 04-09-2020, 03:11 PM   #974
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The 2000 election gutted me. It was my first presidential election.

We were coming off of a boom, Gore seemed to be very intelligent. A nerd, but a good man.

I remember the debates and fuzzy math. About having a beer with someone versus policy.

It was then i saw that logic and reason don’t matter to most. It’s feelings. I still had hope.

Then Florida happened.

I remember being so mad that my guy was robbed. Yes he lost his home state blah blah but he was fucking robbed.

It’s entirely pointless to imagine what the world would have been like has Gore taken over. Of course shit could have been worse. A bad cabinet pick, a bad policy....but really it could have drastically changed our world for the better.

I do not believe the world survives another four years of Trump. The climate, wars, and fucking pandemics.

Look at how he mishandled this. And to think he wouldn’t just nuke someone over a hurt ego?

I’m not even sure how things survive the next nine months. We have no plan besides letting people get sick and try their chances

Anyway. Back to work
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Old 04-09-2020, 04:02 PM   #975
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
This is going to be entirely too long.

Some time away from this place from time to time is good for the mental health. I highly recommend it.
But at the same time – I did miss it. Moved tapatalk off my home screen on my phone, but after a few days found myself occasionally lurking like a creeper. Shit I’ve been here for 20 years. Hard to go cold turkey.

The other day I started going back through old posts. Like really old posts – back in the beginning times. I was looking for one exchange in particular – something from 2012 that I still remember – that resonated with me and pushed me over the edge from a purplish, both parties suck guy to a blue voter.
I also went back to the start – and holy fuck it’s embarrassing to read my FYM posts between 2000 and 2005. Like honest to god horrifying to think about. In a way it’s also good, though. It reminds me of just how much personal experience shapes your beliefs. And also reminds me of how much people’s opinions can change – and how dumb it is to hold them to the fire over their thought process from 2 or 3 decades earlier – like has been done a million times this election cycle – vs. what they believe now.

I was in a fairly dark place in my early 20s. Sparing the gory details – but some shit went down around late 2001-early 2002 that really fucked me up (beyond the obvious events of the world and my home city at the time). It was no fault of my own, but I blamed myself anyways and questioned everything about who I thought I was. I retreated inward – moving back into my parents’ house after college – where my dad listened constantly to conservative talk radio and the newest hit – Fox News.. I was battling depression and spending the majority of time locked away in my room on the computer. In another world, at another time? I could see myself being sucked down that MAGA worm hole. My political posts from the early 2000s clearly reflect that.

This time period is also around the time I dove headfirst into Interference. To say Interference, and in the greater sense U2 and the U2 fan community saved my life is not an exaggeration. While I cut off my circle of friends in the outside to a select few around 2000 – this place, and the greater community as a whole gave me an outlet. (Side note - thank the fuck that reddit didn’t exist then).

2006 was the turning point for me in many ways. I hit rock bottom towards the end of 2005 and started a slow climb in the opposite direction. Things started turning more to the positive (albeit with a lot of work to do). Got a new, better job – moved out – and most importantly got some help. Shit still pops up here and there, but generally in a much better place.

Whether coincidental or not, this also coincided with my shift away from right wing politics. I was in a better place personally, and the party that I supported – mostly because of my environment – was responsible for dueling atrocities – Iraq and Katrina. Honestly it took Katrina to open up my eyes. After that, it was much easier to accept that we were lied to about the WMDs in Iraq. That they took advantage of our raw emotions over 9/11 to push ahead with a needless war.

Shifted from registered republican to “both parties suck” and “I’m socially liberal, fiscally conservative” for the next few years. Hadn’t fully abandoned the republican party just yet. Even voted red a few times – including 2012. I voted for Obama in 2008, but was willing to (and did) go back to the republicans with Romney in 2012 as I didn’t think Obama had handled the economy well in his first term, and Romney was enough in that purple territory to make sense to me.

And it was around this time – a couple of days before the election – that I found the exchange I was looking for. While yes, I voted red for president that month – I haven’t voted red since. And it was a pretty simple argument, and one that should have made more sense from the start – but simple, TV talking points guy never really looked at it that way prior to that.

https://www.u2interference.com/forum...ml#post7590432

It was ultimately the final turning point for me from purple to blue – even if I may be more towards the right of the blue spectrum, and It was as true then as it is today.



I honest to god still come back to this years later.

Just pick the one that’s better. Who do you want nominating SC justices?

All of these guys suck. The system sucks. We all want change. How do we get that change? You’re either shifting people slowly, or you have a revolution. Well shit, the revolution stayed home. So what’s better? Another 4 years of this monstrosity? Or kicking the can a little further down the road and closer to the ultimate end goal?

I support Medicare for All. I don’t support Bernie Sanders because he had an unrealistic vision as to how to get there. Without revolution, it takes coalition building, and yes, that takes compromise. It’s how Obama got ACA passed. It was far from perfect – but here we are 10 years down the road and a one time controversial bill is well liked by a majority of voters across the spectrum, and every democratic candidate – even the more purpley ones – put forth a plan to amend it that would have been shot down as too far left in 2010. Things were progressing the way they needed to be. We’re now at a point where we can decide to continue down that road, or let President Sitting Bullshit take us back 50-70 years.

RBG? She’ll be dead by 2024.

What happens then to abortion rights? To gay marriage? Health Care? Please… any gains will be lost, and then some.

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

No one is asking you to actively like one party, or one candidate.

Just pick the one that’s better.


Welcome back, did you read the NBA threads too? I appreciate your HIAS story. We all are a little headstrong at times on this forum historically, as I’m sure you saw with me too. Gotta keep that in mind with whoever you’re talking to - don’t really know what that person might be going through. mikal was a good recent example of perplexing douchery, but he seems to have come back to the light side with his own personal reasons for his behavior. I could go on about my behaviors in the early 2010s, too. I had a heck of a lot of run ins with about 75% of people here. I remember the ones who made it better (shoutout to my homies).

I want to caution using Peefs own words against him. You yourself just said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Like honest to god horrifying to think about. In a way it’s also good, though. It reminds me of just how much personal experience shapes your beliefs. And also reminds me of how much people’s opinions can change – and how dumb it is to hold them to the fire over their thought process from 2 or 3 decades earlier – like has been done a million times this election cycle – vs. what they believe now.
Now, as someone in 2012 who absolutely took Peef’s point of view. I refused to vote for either Obama or Romney because I also shared the economic view you did, and felt politically conned about Obama’s LGBT platform used as a political tool and felt there was no real help or change unless it came from grassroots movements. Sure enough, those grassroots movements still happened during the Obama administration. Anyways, I’m a firm believer in change coming from the ground up, but I have very few items I would mark off as requiring instillation from the top down. But I digress, that’s a tangent.

It was Peef who literally told me that I was being selfish for my decision to vote for Gary “What is Aleppo” Johnson in 2012.

If you’ve been reading or listening to the artist formerly known as PhilsFan, he’s expressed a sincere life event that has reshaped the way he sees things, especially regarding healthcare.

You can’t convince him with criticism. You might be able to convince him with support, though, or not at all. Just accept that. He has his reasons.
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Old 04-09-2020, 04:07 PM   #976
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Glad to see you back Shannon.
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Old 04-09-2020, 04:11 PM   #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
This is going to be entirely too long.

Some time away from this place from time to time is good for the mental health. I highly recommend it.
But at the same time – I did miss it. Moved tapatalk off my home screen on my phone, but after a few days found myself occasionally lurking like a creeper. Shit I’ve been here for 20 years. Hard to go cold turkey.

The other day I started going back through old posts. Like really old posts – back in the beginning times. I was looking for one exchange in particular – something from 2012 that I still remember – that resonated with me and pushed me over the edge from a purplish, both parties suck guy to a blue voter.
I also went back to the start – and holy fuck it’s embarrassing to read my FYM posts between 2000 and 2005. Like honest to god horrifying to think about. In a way it’s also good, though. It reminds me of just how much personal experience shapes your beliefs. And also reminds me of how much people’s opinions can change – and how dumb it is to hold them to the fire over their thought process from 2 or 3 decades earlier – like has been done a million times this election cycle – vs. what they believe now.

I was in a fairly dark place in my early 20s. Sparing the gory details – but some shit went down around late 2001-early 2002 that really fucked me up (beyond the obvious events of the world and my home city at the time). It was no fault of my own, but I blamed myself anyways and questioned everything about who I thought I was. I retreated inward – moving back into my parents’ house after college – where my dad listened constantly to conservative talk radio and the newest hit – Fox News.. I was battling depression and spending the majority of time locked away in my room on the computer. In another world, at another time? I could see myself being sucked down that MAGA worm hole. My political posts from the early 2000s clearly reflect that.

This time period is also around the time I dove headfirst into Interference. To say Interference, and in the greater sense U2 and the U2 fan community saved my life is not an exaggeration. While I cut off my circle of friends in the outside to a select few around 2000 – this place, and the greater community as a whole gave me an outlet. (Side note - thank the fuck that reddit didn’t exist then).

2006 was the turning point for me in many ways. I hit rock bottom towards the end of 2005 and started a slow climb in the opposite direction. Things started turning more to the positive (albeit with a lot of work to do). Got a new, better job – moved out – and most importantly got some help. Shit still pops up here and there, but generally in a much better place.

Whether coincidental or not, this also coincided with my shift away from right wing politics. I was in a better place personally, and the party that I supported – mostly because of my environment – was responsible for dueling atrocities – Iraq and Katrina. Honestly it took Katrina to open up my eyes. After that, it was much easier to accept that we were lied to about the WMDs in Iraq. That they took advantage of our raw emotions over 9/11 to push ahead with a needless war.

Shifted from registered republican to “both parties suck” and “I’m socially liberal, fiscally conservative” for the next few years. Hadn’t fully abandoned the republican party just yet. Even voted red a few times – including 2012. I voted for Obama in 2008, but was willing to (and did) go back to the republicans with Romney in 2012 as I didn’t think Obama had handled the economy well in his first term, and Romney was enough in that purple territory to make sense to me.

And it was around this time – a couple of days before the election – that I found the exchange I was looking for. While yes, I voted red for president that month – I haven’t voted red since. And it was a pretty simple argument, and one that should have made more sense from the start – but simple, TV talking points guy never really looked at it that way prior to that.

https://www.u2interference.com/forum...ml#post7590432

It was ultimately the final turning point for me from purple to blue – even if I may be more towards the right of the blue spectrum, and It was as true then as it is today.



I honest to god still come back to this years later.

Just pick the one that’s better. Who do you want nominating SC justices?

All of these guys suck. The system sucks. We all want change. How do we get that change? You’re either shifting people slowly, or you have a revolution. Well shit, the revolution stayed home. So what’s better? Another 4 years of this monstrosity? Or kicking the can a little further down the road and closer to the ultimate end goal?

I support Medicare for All. I don’t support Bernie Sanders because he had an unrealistic vision as to how to get there. Without revolution, it takes coalition building, and yes, that takes compromise. It’s how Obama got ACA passed. It was far from perfect – but here we are 10 years down the road and a one time controversial bill is well liked by a majority of voters across the spectrum, and every democratic candidate – even the more purpley ones – put forth a plan to amend it that would have been shot down as too far left in 2010. Things were progressing the way they needed to be. We’re now at a point where we can decide to continue down that road, or let President Sitting Bullshit take us back 50-70 years.

RBG? She’ll be dead by 2024.

What happens then to abortion rights? To gay marriage? Health Care? Please… any gains will be lost, and then some.

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

No one is asking you to actively like one party, or one candidate.

Just pick the one that’s better.
Good to see you back! Very funny, that in one of my posts earlier today, I was going to write (Hi Headache, hope you're seeing this!) Cause I figured you would check in from time to time.

Very good post. And gives some fuller perspective on how and when people view things differently throughout their lives and circumstances.


Your bottom line is exactly what I've been trying to get across. I think a majority of people here would have liked to have seen Warren make it. But she didn't, and that was nothing that we could control.
So we have Biden. I understand that many people have (IMO) is a warped view of Biden. He is a current day moderate, which puts him at a progressive if this were 10 years ago. But sure, he has his faults, he's lost a step, etc...

So while I like and have supported Biden, I will put Biden in a very unkind light in this analogy.

If you don't like Biden, think of him as life support.

Go with me on this.
Your father (USA) has a traumatic brain injury (Trump/Repub sycophants). The doctors say, we think there are some signs that point to a recovery down the road, but right now, it is very serious, and if we stay on this same path, he will die very soon.
You have two options:

1. You can do nothing (not vote) and watch your father die a grim and heartbreaking death. Sure your mom may get remarried, but nothing would ever replace what your father had once been.

2. You can have the doctors put your father on life support, maybe an induced coma, and , it prevents further damage and inflamation, the brain will be able to very slowly make repairs, find new paths and connections, and we hope that during that period, he will be able to come off life support and regain function and even get back to full recovery.

So if you hate Biden, think of him as life support. I personally think he will be much more than just a placeholder, but if turns out that's all he is. SO WHAT?!
I literally can't express enough how fucked our country will become if Trump remains. I don't think anyone can even properly calculate it. He surely has been so much worse than I had imagined for the first 4, and I knew it would be really bad. The next will be exponentially worse, and the ramifications will be for decades.

Get us on life support. Allow time for the country to pause and realign a bit. And lets see that next progressive champion emerge that will bring us forward faster.
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Old 04-09-2020, 04:46 PM   #978
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headache, that's a really good post. i agree that a few days away from this place can really help sometimes, it certainly did for me when i took a step back from the NBA thread last summer. i hope you (but not that avatar) are back for the long haul.
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Old 04-09-2020, 05:19 PM   #979
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https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...506058752?s=21

Will we see the Nword tapes ?
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Old 04-09-2020, 05:31 PM   #980
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Excellent post, Headache. I like going back through old threads on here sometimes, too. It really is amazing to see how much things have changed over the years in terms of the discussion and people's beliefs and whatnot.

My first presidential election was Kerry versus Bush, in 2004. I voted for Kerry. I've never voted for the Republican presidential candidate and the chances are pretty much zero that I ever will. It'd have to take a MAJOR transformation of that party for me to even consider the idea. For me, when I vote, it isn't just about the person, it's about the platform, and the Democrats' platform, while not perfect, for sure, still has a hell of a lot more going for it than the GOP's does.

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Originally Posted by Jerry Dunk View Post
America is a failed state, that much is clear. This pandemic proved what was obvious to many already. It's the reason many don't bother with the political process. Blaming voters for that isn't a way forward. Starting holding the people in power accountable. They are the ones telling you that you don't deserve healthcare, not me.
You are absolutely right that the people in power do need to be held accountable. No argument here on that one. There definitely needs to be a major overhaul of a lot of how things are done regarding elections and campaigning and lobbying and whatnot in this country.

But I do think that the voters do need to be held accountable on some level, too, for just throwing up their hands and being all "both sides bad" and "nothing's going to change, so why bother?" and whatnot for so long. Like I said, I still have yet to hear anyone tell me how not voting has solved a problem in this country (and I'm speaking on a general level here). The people in power are banking on that kind of helplessness and defeatism and the "why bother?" attitude. I don't want to give them the satisfaction of being right. If we want change, we need to get ourselves out there and MAKE that change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Dunk View Post
This is not about me. This is about everyone I know losing their jobs and going bankrupt. This is about people losing their healthcare.
I have the utmost empathy for your stance regarding this issue. I've shared my story on here before about what my family's gone through in regards to all these issues, so believe me when I say I get where you're coming from here.

But all of that is precisely why not voting for president just doesn't work for me.
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