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Old 04-01-2020, 02:46 PM   #821
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I always contended that no matter how much worse of a person Donald Trump is over George W. Bush, Bush’s intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan causing over 200,000 deaths of innocent (and guilty) people is a crime against humanity and we should never forget that.

Well, this hasn’t happened yet with the Trump administration, but if that many people die in the US and evidence suggests the blow could have been lessened, it’s time to start considering George W. Bush as the better president.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:23 PM   #822
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I always contended that no matter how much worse of a person Donald Trump is over George W. Bush, Bush’s intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan causing over 200,000 deaths of innocent (and guilty) people is a crime against humanity and we should never forget that.

Well, this hasn’t happened yet with the Trump administration, but if that many people die in the US and evidence suggests the blow could have been lessened, it’s time to start considering George W. Bush as the better president.
I think it is difficult for people to be objective, so many people have such strong bias

in my opinion W is the worst president in the last 100 years, the Iraq war was a fake war, supported by fake news, and include NYT. CNN at the front of the list of fake news for their own gain
The 'shock and awe' that they presented like a fireworks show as people were being incarcerated in their homes
aside from just that, the 2008 financial collapse was entirely due to the Bush Administration irresponsible policies, millions and millions of people lost their homes, became bankrupt, retirements wiped out.
suicides, , divorces, homelessness
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:28 PM   #823
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I think it is difficult for people to be objective, so many people have such strong bias



in my opinion W is the worst president in the last 100 years, the Iraq war was a fake war, supported by fake news, and include NYT. CNN at the front of the list of fake news for their own gain

The 'shock and awe' that they presented like a fireworks show as people were being incarcerated in their homes

aside from just that, the 2008 financial collapse was entirely due to the Bush Administration irresponsible policies, millions and millions of people lost their homes, became bankrupt, retirements wiped out.

suicides, , divorces, homelessness


I agree with what you’re saying here (not sure our biases will allow the statement “worst in 100 years” to ever not be biased), and I suppose what my post was indicating was that Trump hasn’t gotten there yet, but his handling of this pandemic is certainly starting to push him into the conversation with Dubya.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:55 PM   #824
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everybody has bias,

most people just go with 'what I believe is right" I am not bias

I am always trying to question my bias and consider why I and others believe what we believe


I found the first couple of pages of this thread to helpful, with members sharing a little about there personal experiences, living quarters. housemates, etc

we have our opinions based on our own life experiences, and often want to discount others to "them'.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:09 PM   #825
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everybody has bias,



most people just go with 'what I believe is right" I am not bias



I am always trying to question my bias and consider why I and others believe what we believe





I found the first couple of pages of this thread to helpful, with members sharing a little about there personal experiences, living quarters. housemates, etc



we have our opinions based on our own life experiences, and often want to discount others to "them'.



Can we get the deep story?
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:13 PM   #826
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
I think it is difficult for people to be objective, so many people have such strong bias

in my opinion W is the worst president in the last 100 years, the Iraq war was a fake war, supported by fake news, and include NYT. CNN at the front of the list of fake news for their own gain
The 'shock and awe' that they presented like a fireworks show as people were being incarcerated in their homes
aside from just that, the 2008 financial collapse was entirely due to the Bush Administration irresponsible policies, millions and millions of people lost their homes, became bankrupt, retirements wiped out.
suicides, , divorces, homelessness
Far be it for me to defend W but this is very simplistic. Trump will be seen as the worst president by a mile by the time this is over because if you are listing 2008 as one of the factors that led you to conclude that W is worse, then that is PEANUTS compared to what we are seeing here.

Iraq is totally on Bush, Cheney and the band of criminals, I agree with you on that.

But the 2008 financial collapse is not all on W, not even close. He is certainly partly responsible. But let us go through the relevant actors if we want to be free of "bias":

- Bill Clinton is responsible for a lot of deregulation in the 90s and for aggressively pushing affordable homeownership policies. These were then continued under the W administration and therefore Clinton and W are both responsible. The truth, that not a lot of people want to say out loud, is that most of the people who ended up foreclosing had absolutely no business owning a house. They did not come into home ownership because their incomes changed but because their government allowed for, and worse yet, encouraged, irresponsible taking on of debt.

- Financial institutions tie in to the above - you can blame it on unbridled greed or whatever else, but they are most certainly partly responsible.

- W and the Congress are partly responsible for letting Lehman Brothers fail. 2008 would have been a mess regardless, but this made everything exponentially worse.

- Alan Greenspan is partly responsible for basically taking multiple steps aimed at preventing "natural" recessions from occurring in the late 90s and early 00s, which only compounded the issues in 2008.

- Ben Bernanke is responsible (but less so than all of the actors above) because he was in the driver's seat when this happened. However, he at least has the excuse of being hamstrung by the fact that the Fed simply does not have the authority to act decisively in a financial crisis. This is on Congress and W.

And, as I said before, this will be like child's play compared to what is about to happen to the US (and global) economy.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:45 PM   #827
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Far be it for me to defend W but this is very simplistic. Trump will be seen as the worst president by a mile by the time this is over because if you are listing 2008 as one of the factors that led you to conclude that W is worse, then that is PEANUTS compared to what we are seeing here.

Iraq is totally on Bush, Cheney and the band of criminals, I agree with you on that.

But the 2008 financial collapse is not all on W, not even close. He is certainly partly responsible. But let us go through the relevant actors if we want to be free of "bias":

- Bill Clinton is responsible for a lot of deregulation in the 90s and for aggressively pushing affordable homeownership policies. These were then continued under the W administration and therefore Clinton and W are both responsible. The truth, that not a lot of people want to say out loud, is that most of the people who ended up foreclosing had absolutely no business owning a house. They did not come into home ownership because their incomes changed but because their government allowed for, and worse yet, encouraged, irresponsible taking on of debt.

- Financial institutions tie in to the above - you can blame it on unbridled greed or whatever else, but they are most certainly partly responsible.

- W and the Congress are partly responsible for letting Lehman Brothers fail. 2008 would have been a mess regardless, but this made everything exponentially worse.

- Alan Greenspan is partly responsible for basically taking multiple steps aimed at preventing "natural" recessions from occurring in the late 90s and early 00s, which only compounded the issues in 2008.

- Ben Bernanke is responsible (but less so than all of the actors above) because he was in the driver's seat when this happened. However, he at least has the excuse of being hamstrung by the fact that the Fed simply does not have the authority to act decisively in a financial crisis. This is on Congress and W.

And, as I said before, this will be like child's play compared to what is about to happen to the US (and global) economy.
But the one factor you leave out is that many will not put the blame for this economic disaster on Trump, they will pin it on the virus and Trump will be given a pass, especially if the economy rebounds reasonably quickly and well. And the fact that its a global economic crisis not a strictly US crisis will lend more credo to that point.
He's going to skate through this and get re-elected.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:47 PM   #828
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Plus, the most important aspect, the body count.

Can’t emphasize that enough.

George W. Bush has the blood of 200,000+ people on his hands.

It’s not clear what number Trump must own.
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Old 04-02-2020, 04:22 PM   #829
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While I’m still holding out hope that the numbers may not be as bad as we fear, and there are unique aspects to life in NYC that made it hit so hard there, my optimism shrinks each day.

It’s pretty clear that American society is structured around work and consumerism, and it's made self quarantining very difficult to do, or at least to do quickly in the absence of strong leadership. And we have terrible leadership in the White House, wildly different quality of leadership from state to state, and a health care system that is inadequate and expensive, which keeps many people from seeking help in a timely fashion.

I think Florida is the ticking time bomb.
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Old 04-02-2020, 04:24 PM   #830
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US Politics XXI: Old Man 3-Way

I mean, just look at these red state fuckers:

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1605.JPG
Views:	24
Size:	95.4 KB
ID:	12449
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Old 04-02-2020, 04:49 PM   #831
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I think Florida is the ticking time bomb.
Yep. I've been saying this for a couple weeks.
We're going to need Bugs to save the rest of us...



And to your point about different quality of leadership from state to state:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...e-could-spread

And the CDC is headquartered where?
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:16 PM   #832
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I mean, just look at these red state fuckers:

Attachment 12449


To be fair on this map, a lot of those rural areas don’t have things like markets or groceries within 2 mile radius of their homes. Most of them have to drive 5-10+ miles just for basic necessity.

But if can find the map that shows the dates and order by which states issued shelter orders it was 80% “Blue” governments that acted before it was too late.

I have no hope at all for the recovery of this nation. FEMA is failing big time on filling orders for states (both red and blue).

Jared fucking Kushner is leading this task force, and like his father in law, everything he touches DIES.

We have people being fired for speaking out

https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/1...633377281?s=21

This is going to come down to us saving us. Judging by 50% of this country thinking this virus is still a deep state hoax, i really can’t say this ends well.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:56 PM   #833
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But the one factor you leave out is that many will not put the blame for this economic disaster on Trump, they will pin it on the virus and Trump will be given a pass, especially if the economy rebounds reasonably quickly and well. And the fact that its a global economic crisis not a strictly US crisis will lend more credo to that point.

He's going to skate through this and get re-elected.


I agree that his followers are cultists.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with how history will rank him.

The economy will not even be in a position to begin rebounding for many months.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:19 PM   #834
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This whole fiasco might play right into Trump's hands in terms of the election. Biden is not really going to be able to campaign at all - rallies are totally out of the picture, and Trump dominates the internet in a way he will never be able to match. Given that Biden's hardly an exciting candidate to begin with, I'm afraid it might be over already.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:39 PM   #835
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Biden’s ads have been pretty good in my opinion. Where he, and EVERYONE fails against Trump is that facts don’t matter anymore.

Hillary tried to beat him by being a prepared candidate. Using fancy words and statistics and other lib elitist stuff.

One million people could die by the end of this summer and because Trump doesn’t play by any sort of logic he could spin that as a win

“I saved 349 million lives!! Only I can save more!!”

But in reality nothing can escape the fact that the economy is toast. That usually makes the difference.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:26 PM   #836
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Vote-by-mail could also be a game changer.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:21 PM   #837
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Agree. Imperative that the USPS survives
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:49 AM   #838
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the pandemic is already rapidly reordering society in a way we haven't seen since world war two. and then climate change is going to be that much worse once we've figured this virus out and completely forgotten about dealing with the climate in the meantime.

remember when we were looking forward to the 2020s? lol
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:33 AM   #839
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My worry about climate change is the possibility of the notion that public transportation will be considered dangerous after all this.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:03 AM   #840
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Here's what I think people are missing in the calculation of "worst president"

Yes, Bush was horrible. The Iraq War was a scheme propagated by calculated lies and has mired us unwinnable wars for years and years.

But, there is so much more with Trump. I don't think you can really even quantify the destruction he has brought to our OWN democracy.

These are not obvious like a war in middle east. This is the delegitimizing of the free press, the explosion of racism and xenophobia, the gaslighting and brainwashing of nearly half the country. Long time non-partisan government officials are now the enemy, those fighting corruption are corrupt, Congress and Senate have had their oversight powers completely stripped. Kids put in cages, neo-nazi's are very fine people, the use of the office as president to funnel money to his own business, and deep and pervasive corruption in every action.

If I wanted to take an hour, I probably could make a very long list of specifics, but this is the broader point. Bush was horrible. but what Trump has done has fundamentally changed and broken what our country IS.
And because of that, there is no comparison.
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