US Politics XXI: Old Man 3-Way

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the murder of harambe was the inciting incident for our version of the simulation to start down its darkest timeline. change my mind.
 
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dazzledbylight said:
There is a couple that created this incredible (? one year ) event working with the UN that involved them working with different people around the world to coordinate it. My sister met them at some point, maybe helped them. Among the things she told me that they learned was that Americans had more trouble holding (something like) conflicting points of view than many other peoples around the world.

So in the case of Gov Cuomo I can praise, disagree, call out, or get close to condemning him for various actions/non actions. I'm shocked to learn he had a hand in the IDC! Anyway I've not been the biggest fan of his in general.
But compared to Republicans?!?

There are people, politicians with whom I have little or no conflicting views on - like W, Cheney, Trump as examples I list them as scumbags (at the very least!). I try in general as a voter to vote for the most liberal/progressive candidate as I can - unless I don't think they can win. I also have voted on the Working Families ballot line near since they formed up.

I'm a liberal, no "neo" modifier in front of it. In fact I don't think that term was even a glimmer in anyone's eye at that point ('67-'68). In fact, and I hope I still have it - flyer from the most liberal, maybe even those leaning towards democratic socialism (not sure it was an actual term used in NYC liberal circles back then. (I was 15 so not that informed yet, but already politically active) for a rally "Progressives for Humphrey". Because people realized that Nixon would be far worse, than Humphrey would ever be. Unfortunately this revelation came too late for the rising in the polls of Humphrey to close the gap. Having George Wallace in the race as a major third candidate also complicated things.

The term Progressive began to be used by liberals instead of the word - liberal, because it had been tarnished so badly in that mid-late '60's time.

So this how I tend to think about politicians (other people in semi to fully public positions) that have an effect on society.

Oh, and continue to stay safe.
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But that's their whole game. They want you to let them get away with class solidarity because they'll throw you a bone and say "yeah, but the Republicans, am I right?" They'll line their own pockets but say nice things about minority groups and women. They'll tsk tsk policies that hurt working people, unless they're in charge, in which case they'll pass nearly identical policies and say their hands were tied, or that they need to work with the other side so that it becomes a two way street when they're out of power (only one party operates like this).

When people say "both sides are the same," they're talking about the class solidarity across both parties. They're obviously not completely the same, but both parties are fundamentally capitalist, right wing economic parties. Obama had a full majority in Congress and ran on card check. He didn't even bother trying to put it in place when he actually got into power. It was a campaign promise he just abandoned at the outset, and he was never held to task for it because the national media are all corporate. They didn't want it to happen, so they didn't cover it. The Democrats are anti-labor, and it's a big part of why they continue to cede ground to the Republicans despite dwindling popularity for the policies the GOP runs on.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
I still can't tell if they want us to vote for his VP choice or for his wife in an Edith Wilson role, but I don't think anyone truly believes he's going to be in charge. This is insane.
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I would feel a lot better now if Elizabeth Warren was the nominee. Like a million times better, no joke.
 
anitram said:
I would feel a lot better now if Elizabeth Warren was the nominee. Like a million times better, no joke.
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Same. It's tough to wrap my head around Biden deemed the best option in an election where the stakes are this high.
 
Agree. And i think it would be beneficial if Joe works with him to adjust policy where it makes sense.

There is support for these progressive policies, but voters are scared of too much change.

It would be great if there could be a middle ground to get us there eventually.

Maybe this pandemic can boost it.
 
anitram said:
I would feel a lot better now if Elizabeth Warren was the nominee. Like a million times better, no joke.
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Same here. I voted for her. Now we have Joe Biden. Yippee

Perhaps one day way in the future, some people in this country will be ready to elect an intelligent capable woman to be President. Many of them were sure ready to elect a not so intelligent narcissistic con man.
 
Very disappointed in Sanders' decision. I am also leaving the Democratic Party now that I will not have an opportunity to vote for Sanders in PA's closed primary.

Sanders won't get 25 percent of the delegates, which means he won't be able to challenge any convention rules. Just a brutal decision by him.
 
I'm sorry to those who are disappointed. I originally felt that way about Cory Booker, who was my favorite in the field. I felt that way about Howard Dean in '04 too. I genuinely mean it too. It's a crushing feeling.

I hope Biden is able to find some common ground with Bernie so his supporters can at least put enough faith behind Biden to get Trump the hell out of the White House.
 
I am optimistic for the fall. It turns out that there was no Sanders movement of any sort of size to make an actual political difference — aside from a few passionate supporters and sensing that the overall D electorate was moving left, a huge chunk of his support was simply dislike for Hillary Clinton.

I don’t understand that dislike, but then I don’t understand why no one voted for Elizabeth Warren.

Let’s set this illusion aside and focus on the task at hand. There is only one way to make real, measurable change to improve the lives of millions of people in the fall. And that’s to organize and vote Donald Trump out of office. It could have been any of those candidates, and the task would be the same. Anything else is just vanity. You have zero credibility and should not be taken seriously if you refuse to do the one thing you actually can do to affect change, especially if you live in a swing state.

Vote.
 
Irvine511 said:
I am optimistic for the fall. It turns out that there was no Sanders movement of any sort of size to make an actual political difference — aside from a few passionate supporters and sensing that the overall D electorate was moving left, a huge chunk of his support was simply dislike for Hillary Clinton.

I don’t understand that dislike, but then I don’t understand why no one voted for Elizabeth Warren.

Let’s set this illusion aside and focus on the task at hand. There is only one way to make real, measurable change to improve the lives of millions of people in the fall. And that’s to organize and vote Donald Trump out of office. It could have been any of those candidates, and the task would be the same. Anything else is just vanity. You have zero credibility and should not be taken seriously if you refuse to do the one thing you actually can do to affect change, especially if you live in a swing state.

Vote.
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This is bullshit. I live in a swing state, and I'm not voting for Joe Biden, a senile old man who helped lead us into the Iraq War, supported corporations over labor, and who has been credibly accused of rape. He stands against almost everything I stand for. He's not worthy of my vote, and I don't trust him to help Americans out. My credibility would not exist if I made the choice to vote for Joe Biden. Biden will not make measurable change for people. He won't improve people's lives. Only organizing can do that now, around labor and issues and policies. Electoral politics has once again abandoned us, so we must find another way.

As a matter of fact, Joe Biden has consistently told voters who pressed him on issues that mattered to them throughout the process to "go vote for someone else, then." That was his stock line. Put another way, I'm simply taking him up on that.

If you really wanted to get Donald Trump out of office, you would have rallied around candidates and policies that would have affected real change. But the Democrats did not do that.

Don't say we didn't warn you come November. Those who propped up Biden and the dying neoliberal wing of the Democratic Party are the ones responsible for what happens next, not the people who have been pointing out for years before this pandemic that universal healthcare was the only way to not have a depraved society.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
If you really wanted to get Donald Trump out of office, you would have rallied around candidates and policies that would have affected real change. But the Democrats did not do that.
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Maybe your generation, allegedly thirsty for change should have showed up to vote?

But they didn't do that.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
Yeah, I was going to say something else. Something honest. So I'll say it-a dumb ass moron?
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I'm going to draw an easy comparison between Trump and Ontario's Premier Doug Ford.

Doug Ford, the brother of the Rob Ford of "plenty of eating pussy at home" fame, was elected in Ontario in 2018 when voters threw out the Liberal government that had been in power for a long time and was beset with scandal. The Liberal leader was extremely disliked, but even so, it was mostly the suburbs/rural areas voting for Ford and he certainly ran on a populist platform like Trump. Though nowhere near as offensive/racist. Basically Doug Ford is like a slightly more intelligent Rob Ford, more polished, and with more self-control.

He then ruled much like you'd expect - immediately combative, defunding social programs, denying climate change, getting into a fight with all the teachers' unions which had been on rolling strikes since the beginning of 2020, until schools were closed for COVID-19. Doug Ford's approval ratings were brutal, in the 30s and he was panned by the media. Before COVID-19 became a daily reality for Canadians, he was even encouraging people to travel and enjoy themselves with their kids.

Then COVID-19 became serious and overnight he emerged...a competent leader. I did not vote for him nor would I support him as the platform does not align with my views, but he has been almost...extraordinary. Calm, collected, measured, supportive of financial help, working productively with the federal government, praising the feds (who are Liberals) and even not taking to bait with the upcoming carbon tax imposed by the feds. He's been driving around in his pick up picking up donated PPE (without telling the media) and delivering them where needed. He's fought back against Trump, stating publicly that when the chips are down, we now see who our true friends are. It's been absolutely remarkable and last I checked his approval ratings were upward of 75%. Basically everybody but the far left whose biases prevent them from seeing reality for what it is, have approved of the job he is doing. Out west there are calls for him to run for the federal conservative party and aim for the PM job.

Which goes to show you just what a narcissistic, sociopathic shitbag Trump is. Because it is absolutely possible, in a catastrophe, for even people who are not great leaders to actually rise to the challenge and become great leaders. But not Trump - he is absolutely unable to rise to any challenge, rise above insulting and belittling people, lying all day, continuing to be divisive, and actively choose to be the stereotypical American asshole bully who takes PPE from other countries and acts like a general piece of shit.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
This is bullshit. I live in a swing state, and I'm not voting for Joe Biden, a senile old man who helped lead us into the Iraq War, supported corporations over labor, and who has been credibly accused of rape. He stands against almost everything I stand for. He's not worthy of my vote, and I don't trust him to help Americans out. My credibility would not exist if I made the choice to vote for Joe Biden. Biden will not make measurable change for people. He won't improve people's lives. Only organizing can do that now, around labor and issues and policies. Electoral politics has once again abandoned us, so we must find another way.
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aren't you special and precious.

guess what: you're not. but your swing sate vote is.

use it for good. it's not about you.
 
anitram said:
I'm sorry, 75-85% of your generation (depending on the state) was prevented from voting due to voter suppression?
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Well, 100 percent of my generation was prevented in every state that has not had a primary to this point. Anyone who was not registered as a Democrat in a closed primary state, or was prevented from doing so due to arcane rules. Anyone who had their vote thrown out because of arcane rules. Anyone who lived in a district that was projected to go heavily Sanders (i.e. college towns) that saw the same GOP tactics of artificially creating massive wait times was thrown out. Anyone who couldn't go to the polls because they couldn't afford to miss work. Anyone who was so beaten down by all of the coverage about how Biden had locked things down and their memories of how completely void of impact the Obama years were in materially improving their lives. Anyone who didn't vote because there was a fucking pandemic, despite assurances from Biden that they would be fine if they were asymptomatic.

I mean, it comes down to this: do you need our votes or not? You can't have it both ways. Either you need them and you need to start actually listening to what we need, or you don't and you can't blame us when we don't show to vote. I'm sure they'll do it anyway, but it's a crock of shit.
 
So what happens if Joe Biden passes away before November?
If its before the convention then I assume the delegates select someone else, if its after does the VP choice become the top of the ticket?
Sad that I'd even ask such a thing, but I honestly don't expect him to complete a 4 year term and with the current health crisis he is obviously in a high risk category, and its something that needs to be considered.
Coupled with the video LN7 posted of him blathering along, I have genuine concerns.
 
Irvine511 said:
your posts, including this one, indicate otherwise.

do you not realize that voting Donald Trump out of office will do the most possible good for people?
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Of course they do, because all you want to do is read what you want to read out of all of this. You long since stopped listening to anything I have to say. I don't care to carry this conversation on with you further because you are operating out of bad faith. I don't intend to devote further energy to discussing with someone who wants only to scold me for being some sort of brat. Go patronize someone else.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
Of course they do, because all you want to do is read what you want to read out of all of this. You long since stopped listening to anything I have to say. I don't care to carry this conversation on with you further because you are operating out of bad faith. I don't intend to devote further energy to discussing with someone who wants only to scold me for being some sort of brat. Go patronize someone else.
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Remember when for like a week when you thought Bernie was going to win and you started apologizing and being nice to people? I’m sad to realize that apparently wasn’t sincere.

Literally every vote counts in Pennsylvania. I wish I had a swing state vote. It’s beyond depressing to see one being thrown away.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
This is bullshit. I live in a swing state, and I'm not voting for Joe Biden, a senile old man who helped lead us into the Iraq War, supported corporations over labor, and who has been credibly accused of rape. He stands against almost everything I stand for. He's not worthy of my vote, and I don't trust him to help Americans out. My credibility would not exist if I made the choice to vote for Joe Biden. Biden will not make measurable change for people. He won't improve people's lives. Only organizing can do that now, around labor and issues and policies. Electoral politics has once again abandoned us, so we must find another way.

As a matter of fact, Joe Biden has consistently told voters who pressed him on issues that mattered to them throughout the process to "go vote for someone else, then." That was his stock line. Put another way, I'm simply taking him up on that.

If you really wanted to get Donald Trump out of office, you would have rallied around candidates and policies that would have affected real change. But the Democrats did not do that.

Don't say we didn't warn you come November. Those who propped up Biden and the dying neoliberal wing of the Democratic Party are the ones responsible for what happens next, not the people who have been pointing out for years before this pandemic that universal healthcare was the only way to not have a depraved society.
Click to expand...

So just a real simple question. Really think back on ALL that Trump has done these last 3.5 years. Really think about it. And then, knowing that no third party candidate is going to win the election, try to, as non-biased as possible, tell us why Trump would be better than having Biden for the next 4 years. Keeping in mind that this will be Trump, without regard for reelection, knowing impeachment is off the table, and has complete protection from the Senate and DOJ.

I would like to hear your specific thoughts on how Trump would be better.
 
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