US POLITICS XX: Stuck In a Caucus You Can't Get Out Of

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Now what will be interesting will be to see new fresh polling from WI PA and MI. last poll were about mid February ish.

Michigan is most recent. from late Feb to 2/29-3/3 - MI went from +9 Sanders to +6 Biden.
 
Just had an interesting conversation this morning. I have a friend from work, mid-50's, lifelong Republican, white, evangelical, voted for Trump in Florida - In the bellweather Tampa area.
He said he is considering voting for Biden if he is the candidate, but would never for Bernie.

Said he just wants some normalcy and if it isn't Romney, then Biden seems at least someone that would bring that.

Just one story that may be duplicated tens of thousands of times across the country right now.
Yep. I have a co-worker who literally said the same thing. He's never voted Democrat but will vote for Biden over Trump. He said if Bernie is the candidate, he's staying home and voting for neither.
 
Yep. I have a co-worker who literally said the same thing. He's never voted Democrat but will vote for Biden over Trump. He said if Bernie is the candidate, he's staying home and voting for neither.

Like I said last night. THIS is the new demographic, that Trump has actually created.
 
Now what will be interesting will be to see new fresh polling from WI PA and MI. last poll were about mid February ish.

Michigan is most recent. from late Feb to 2/29-3/3 - MI went from +9 Sanders to +6 Biden.





Looks like Sanders was always a house of cards.

Imagine if he’d been the nominee in 2016.
 
Looks like Sanders was always a house of cards.

Imagine if he’d been the nominee in 2016.

Think it also shows some more insight on Clinton. Was sexism really this much in play? Warren's numbers may in fact back that up. Was it just the Clinton name? Whatever it was, to see Biden winning states last night where Sanders crushed Clinton last time, shows that Clinton was much weaker than people thought.
 
Think it also shows some more insight on Clinton. Was sexism really this much in play? Warren's numbers may in fact back that up. Was it just the Clinton name? Whatever it was, to see Biden winning states last night where Sanders crushed Clinton last time, shows that Clinton was much weaker than people thought.



Yes.

I now understand that the nagging anxiety I felt in 2016 watching her lose states in the primary — I was trying to dismiss it as an example of the power of the Sanders message or his skill as a politician, that this was a real, growing, and vibrant movement and possibly the way forward.

But now we know what it was: her weakness as a candidate.

People just hate her.
 
Hillary Clinton was a historically disliked candidate. Whether that's fair or not is debatable, but it's true nonetheless.

I don't doubt that Bernie has a rabid base. To do so would be silly.

But his numbers in 2016 were also inflated by voters who were upset that the nomination was more or less being handed to Clinton, who, again, had crazy high unfavorables.

Nobody can make that claim about Biden. He was left for dead a week ago.

Bernie appears to have a ceiling, much like Trump did in 2016 (no, that's not saying Bernie = Trump). Democrats took heart or the GOP's lesson from 2016. Once it was clear that one of the moderates had broken through, everyone else fell into place rather than drag it out, splitting the vote until it was too late.
 
Last edited:
Warren, my take is this. Probably a solid 50 to 60% would go to Bernie. But I think we are underestimating the largely female, but also male Clinton supporters that are backing Warren as an amazing female candidate. But still unfortunately are not favorable of Bernie after 2016. Not saying they wouldn't back Bernie in the general, but they may not in the primary.

There has been a lot written last year about how there is actually very little overlap between Warren supporters and Bernie supporters. In fact, Warren's supporters are largely groups with whom Bernie does the worst. Upper middle to upper class white women and professional black women, two groups which, by the way, vote in extremely high numbers.

And these groups are also typically not single-issue voters, so while they share the same views with Bernie on M4A, that is likely not the only or determining factor. This group doesn't need free college for them or their kids, they don't care about legalizing marijuana (and some may in fact prefer the opposite), and has benefited from capitalism, which Warren openly supports and Bernie does not.

We had Peef here tell us that he may not even vote for Warren if she is the Democratic nominee. Which I found to be extreme, but maybe it's a good example of just how little overlap there is.

But in any event, why is this even being discussed? It's not Elizabeth Warren who is preventing Bernie from being the Democratic nominee. It's that his own base can't be bothered to show up and vote. And also his inability to moderate his message at all - when he saw the center was collapsing and slowly migrating to Biden, he doubled down on Fidel Castro of all things. I mean, really...
 
I'm wondering if Bernie's base is Susan Sarandon, Micheal Moore, and Russian Bots.

Warren appears to be done. There's just no path forward for her (and probably wasn't). I find what the media did to her worse than Clinton. She had next to no baggage for a politician. I truly believed she cared about everyone, and she really had a plan for everything.

In a just society this is someone who would lead us, and who we would want to lead us. Logic, Reason, and compassion.

Biden has the latter in spades, and maybe that's what people really want after four years of Trump. But it's depressing to see someone who should be our top choice to fix this mess be thrown away so easily.
 
There has been a lot written last year about how there is actually very little overlap between Warren supporters and Bernie supporters. In fact, Warren's supporters are largely groups with whom Bernie does the worst. Upper middle to upper class white women and professional black women, two groups which, by the way, vote in extremely high numbers.

And these groups are also typically not single-issue voters, so while they share the same views with Bernie on M4A, that is likely not the only or determining factor. This group doesn't need free college for them or their kids, they don't care about legalizing marijuana (and some may in fact prefer the opposite), and has benefited from capitalism, which Warren openly supports and Bernie does not.

We had Peef here tell us that he may not even vote for Warren if she is the Democratic nominee. Which I found to be extreme, but maybe it's a good example of just how little overlap there is.

But in any event, why is this even being discussed? It's not Elizabeth Warren who is preventing Bernie from being the Democratic nominee. It's that his own base can't be bothered to show up and vote. And also his inability to moderate his message at all - when he saw the center was collapsing and slowly migrating to Biden, he doubled down on Fidel Castro of all things. I mean, really...

Yeah, I'd been thinking about this. Bernie's inability to show any flexibility plays well with the very, very core base of his. But it's been his own downfall. If he had learned some lessons from 2016, he could have changed some tone and opened up a bit to include voters that weren't rallying to the absolutism of his "movement". Instead of insisting the Democratic party make changes to suit his purposes, try to reach out the other way and open the door for lifelong Dems to feel more comfortable supporting him.

But he didn't do that. And we see now an uprising of moderate voters, not happy with either "far" side. And he lost the opportunity to bring those people in.

I'll make another note. Something that Chris Hayes hit on with a guest the other night. They were talking about Bernie's inroads with the hispanic community, and still not so much with the AA community. He said, well he is getting younger black voters, so that's good right?
Well, that's the story right there. It isn't about race at all. It continues to be all about age.
He's only doing better with Latinx voters because the average age of those voters is FAR below that of the average white or black voter.
It was something crazy like the average age of hispanic voters was late 20's or early 30's. This follows right along with who Bernie gets regardless of age.

This is not a recipe for victory. Sanders has a large following of a voting block that votes at about 15%-20%. While someone like Biden has a large following of people that vote at over 60%+.

This doesn't excuse Biden from responsibility of needing to do real outreach now to bring more young people into the fold. But it gives a whole new perspective of Sanders support this time around.

Also, I have to say, that this time, instead of AA voters waiting around for the party to come to them, they looked to have taken control of the process this time around, and said with their vote - we are going to show you who we want to be the nominee. And I think that is pretty inspiring.
Also the fact that the candidate with the most money flopped and the candidate with the least money won big, gives some hope that people's genuine voice is still alive and well.
 
Also the fact that the candidate with the most money flopped and the candidate with the least money won big, gives some hope that people's genuine voice is still alive and well.

Joe Biden owes Elizabeth Warren for this.

Had she not murdered Bloomberg in front of a large national audience so thoroughly that he could never recover, we have no idea what the results would be today.

Bloomberg was stiff in the first debate and he definitely wouldn't have appeared charismatic in any event, but if Warren hadn't taken him down, he may have just come across as stiff and boring. Instead his entire $500 million excursion ended in 10 minutes.
 
Joe Biden owes Elizabeth Warren for this.

Had she not murdered Bloomberg in front of a large national audience so thoroughly that he could never recover, we have no idea what the results would be today.

Bloomberg was stiff in the first debate and he definitely wouldn't have appeared charismatic in any event, but if Warren hadn't taken him down, he may have just come across as stiff and boring. Instead his entire $500 million excursion ended in 10 minutes.

So true. I'm really sad/pissed about Warren. This shows the shitty line that female candidates and women in general in powerful positions, still have to walk to get half of what male candidates do. She was IMO the best choice for president. Maybe not the best to beat Trump, but the best president. Not that 90% of the Dem nominees would have been bad, but she stood out. And that reality just sucks.
 
People joke about Bloomberg but what he did was actually successful and accomplished the goal.

He wanted Biden to be the nominee (or another centrist). When it looked like Biden was a non-starter and a “socialist” might roll in to apply a wealth tax, he got in the race, spent a piddly $500 million which probably represents like 1/2 to 1/6 of JUST his annual interest earnings and doesn’t even touch his capital, and got the outcome he wanted.

I don’t think he ever wanted to be President.

And now he will sink hundreds of millions into the election - if he sticks to that commitment, Trump cannot compete financially.
 
People joke about Bloomberg but what he did was actually successful and accomplished the goal.

He wanted Biden to be the nominee (or another centrist). When it looked like Biden was a non-starter and a “socialist” might roll in to apply a wealth tax, he got in the race, spent a piddly $500 million which probably represents like 1/2 to 1/6 of JUST his annual interest earnings and doesn’t even touch his capital, and got the outcome he wanted.

I don’t think he ever wanted to be President.

And now he will sink hundreds of millions into the election - if he sticks to that commitment, Trump cannot compete financially.

Yeah, I gotta say that things just lined up in a remarkable way for Biden. Bloomberg could have gotten out before super tuesday. But actually him staying in just showed that Biden could perform as an individual candidate - strongly, even with another moderate with hundreds of millions running at the same time.
Warren taking out Bloomberg
The timing of the Clyburn endorsement
The timing of Amy, Pete and Beto

So Biden has many to thank, along with just plain old good timing at this point. He's got to maintain it now.

I don't doubt that with Bloomberg will wholeheartedly back Biden. I'm guessing a super-PAC will be started by tomorrow, and his field offices will probably be put into transition soon.
 
I'm wondering if Bernie's base is Susan Sarandon, Micheal Moore, and Russian Bots.

Warren appears to be done. There's just no path forward for her (and probably wasn't). I find what the media did to her worse than Clinton. She had next to no baggage for a politician. I truly believed she cared about everyone, and she really had a plan for everything.

In a just society this is someone who would lead us, and who we would want to lead us. Logic, Reason, and compassion.

Biden has the latter in spades, and maybe that's what people really want after four years of Trump. But it's depressing to see someone who should be our top choice to fix this mess be thrown away so easily.

I'm going to at the same time defend Bernie and his supporters and also throw them violently under the bus with extreme malice.

While there's zero doubt that Russian bots backed Bernie more than any other democratic candidate, to say that's his base is entirely unfair and won't help in the general so there's zero need to piss off the non nut job ones by reducing them to this. He doesn't get the record individual campaign donations from Russian bots. His issue wasn't that his base didn't exist, it's that his base is struggling to expand into groups that actually show up to vote in any sort of large, meaningful number.


Now for the bus throwing... Bernie and his devotees shanked her just as much as she shanked Bloomberg. He went negative in Iowa, she responded in kind, and they fucking crucified her for it. She was unfairly labeled a liar and a snake. She never recovered from that moment.

What she did to Bloomberg? Hey, fair's fair. Everyone knew it was coming, and he absolutely butchered it. Could not have done worse if he was purposefully trying to tank. Single handedly took him out of the race in 10 minutes. And it was Mike's own fault.

But what they did to Liz? Man that was dirty. Bernie knows he broke the truce by going negative first, and he knows he said what she said he said. But it didn't matter. She was done.
 
Last edited:
Listening to Bernie press conference now.

He’s decided to run the exact same strategy on Biden that he ran against Clinton. You’d think someone would tell him he needs to change something in order to change his outcome.

Am I wrong here?
 
Oh right. Bernie never does anything wrong. I shouldn't believe Liz. My bad

yes this is 100% a case of "bernie never does anything wrong" and totally not a case of "i'd like to see the evidence you used to reach such a firm conclusion".

sorry for briefly forgetting to play the ridiculous character you've cast me as.
 
Isn't it entirely possible that he said that a woman couldn't win AND that he's not sexist?

I mean, we've had multiple women on this thread, myself included, basically say the same thing?
 
View attachment 12420

Working with the big Biden night as the new neutral, in reverse...

American Samoa: true enough
Vermont: true enough
Maine: true enough (delta balances with American Samoa)
Utah: 5-10 tip to Sanders
Arkansas: true enough
Alabama: 15-20 tip to Biden
Tennessee: 0-5 tip to Biden
Oklahoma: true enough
Colorado: 10-15 tip to Sanders
Minnesota: 5-10 tip to Biden
Massachusetts: 5-10 tip to Biden
Virginia: true enough
North Carolina: true enough
Texas: true enough
California: ???? 30-100 to Sanders, who knows

So without California deltas we are looking at...
615-445

Minimum of 625-435
Maximum of 650-410

And after california that’s:

Worst case for Biden: 475-535
Worst case for Sanders: 620-440

Some no mathematical phone math of likelihood: 530-490
 
To reiterate just how energized the Democratic base is still fired up (continuing from 2018) My state, TN, had record turnout, even though an F3 tornado blasted through 200 miles of the most populated area of the state the night before super tuesday. That's how much people want Trump out.

ps. this is not saying Biden wins TN in the general, just an overall note of the energy that is still there, especially now that there is a central figure they can get behind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom