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Old 02-25-2020, 03:30 PM   #261
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Do you really not see that there is a much greater reluctance on the part of Sanders supporters to criticize him?

I mean honestly it feels like anytime something like this is observed we're told nobody here is a caricature that we apparently created in our minds which at some point truthfully feels like gaslighting.

I think that you will agree that I have really not participated in any caricature-making of the Bernie Bros but I can't even make an observation before being ridiculed. So ok, we're all crazy then...
i apologize if you felt like i was ridiculing you, that was not my intention whatsoever, nor is it ever. you're one of the smartest people here and i value and respect your thoughts and opinions, even though i don't always agree with them.

and honestly, sure. i've been more defensive and less critical towards him than i maybe ought to be. this is the first time i've ever really been on the "non-mainstream" side of this forum and it is exhausting sometimes. it reminds me a bit of the NBA thread when the raptors were in the finals. when four or five people respond in entirely different ways to one of my posts i usually feel the need to reply to them all and defend my stances, which then generates its own flurry of varying responses, and so on. it's tough for me not to reply when someone directly quotes one of my posts or says something directly to me - truthfully, i've gotten very little work done today (entirely my own fault) because i've been so distracted with replying here. i probably ought to take a step back a bit, but there's so much going on and so much to talk about right now that it's hard to do.

i don't think you're all crazy and i'm not trying to gaslight anyone. i truthfully don't see anyone here as the stereotypical fanatic bernie bro that keeps being brought up here. yeah there are a lot of genuinely messed up people on twitter and other forms of social media. harassing and threatening people or doxxing them or vandalizing their property or whatever is never okay no matter why it's being done, whether you think you're helping a political candidate or getting revenge on someone or whatever. i wish those people had nothing to do with the sanders campaign.

but i haven't seen anything here approaching the kind of batshit quasi-religious behaviour that you described in that post, nor have i seen sanders people attack you as being "part of the suburban upper middle class aristocracy" (the only people i've seen doing that are orgorp and garrison over on the other forum, who are definitely not sanders supporters lol), and the assumption before you even posted that you'd be attacked by someone here who thinks "all of Bernie's stances actually ARE faultless" rankled me a bit. who actually would do that? i certainly wouldn't, and i'm pretty sure none of LN7 or vlad or peef (or any other regulars i may be forgetting) would either.

anyways i got off on a bit of a ramble there. i apologize again if you thought i was ridiculing you.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:31 PM   #262
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One side that feels passionately about Bernie and his agenda for America
the other the wants 'anyone but Bernie'.


i'm kind of the side that thinks "Bernie has the right intentions, but his weaknesses are considerable and generally unprecedented, although maybe so are his strengths, however i don't believe in the magically materializing youth vote, so another candidate who can continue to win the suburbs won in 2018 so we keep the House and maybe make gains in the Senate would be preferable"

here's why i think that:

Quote:
Why does Sanders look similarly electable to leading moderates in polls against Trump? We fielded a 40,000-person survey in early 2020 that helps us look into this question with more precision. We asked Americans to choose between Trump and one of the leading Democratic candidates: Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg, Joe Biden, and Mike Bloomberg.

So that respondents would not strategically claim to only support their chosen candidate against Trump, we only asked each respondent about one Democratic candidate. The surveys were fielded by Lucid, an online market-research company that provides nationally representative samples of Americans.

Our data (laid out in an academic working paper here) also found what polls show: that Bernie Sanders is similarly electable to more moderate candidates. But, on closer inspection, it shows that this finding relies on some remarkable assumptions about youth turnout that past elections suggest are questionable.

We found that nominating Sanders would drive many Americans who would otherwise vote for a moderate Democrat to vote for Trump, especially otherwise Trump-skeptical Republicans.

Republicans are more likely to say they would vote for Trump if Sanders is nominated: Approximately 2 percent of Republicans choose Trump over Sanders, but desert Trump when we pit him against a more moderate Democrat like Buttigieg, Biden, or Bloomberg.

Democrats and independents are also slightly more likely to say they would vote for Trump if Sanders is nominated. Swing voters may be rare — but their choices between candidates often determine elections, and many appear to favor Trump over Sanders but not over other Democrats.

Despite losing these voters to Trump, Sanders appears in our survey data to be similarly electable to the moderates — at least at first blush. Why? Mainly because 11 percent of left-leaning young people say they are undecided, would support a third-party candidate, or, most often, just would not vote if a moderate were nominated — but say they would turn out and vote for Sanders if he were nominated.

The large number of young people who say they will only vote if Sanders is nominated is just enough to offset the voters Sanders loses to Trump in the rest of the electorate. (Warren appears to lose at least as many Republicans as Sanders, but does not seem to benefit from any compensating enthusiasm from young voters.)

Sanders himself has been clear that his strategy for beating Trump is to massively boost turnout, especially among young people — and young people in our data indeed say they would turn out at much higher rates for him.

But for Sanders to do as well as a moderate Democrat against Trump in November by stimulating youth turnout, his nomination would need to boost turnout of young left-leaning voters enormously — according to our data, one in six left-leaning young people who otherwise wouldn’t vote would need to turn out because Sanders was nominated. There are good reasons to doubt that Sanders’s nomination would produce a youth turnout surge this large.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...moderates-data


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Old 02-25-2020, 03:34 PM   #263
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I imagine all his ad buys are in for Super Tuesday now, awhile back I moved from CA to a small Super Tuesday state with 29 delegates, there have been tons of Boomberg ads on TV, radio, social media, electronic billboards up and down the freeways
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:38 PM   #264
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it reminds me a bit of the NBA thread when the raptors were in the finals. when four or five people respond in entirely different ways to one of my posts i usually feel the need to reply to them all and defend my stances, which then generates its own flurry of varying responses, and so on.
The Raptors were controversial? I'm not sure if I'm glad or sad to have missed that...I will keep you in mind next time I have Rap tix to unload!

It's all good. I didn't mean you, but just generally it seems like non-Bernie voters tend to have a healthy dose of cynicism (and negativity) about whoever they happen to be supporting whereas the Bernie folks are all in. I'm not even saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes it can read as absurd.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:42 PM   #265
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The Raptors were controversial? I'm not sure if I'm glad or sad to have missed that...I will keep you in mind next time I have Rap tix to unload!
most people in there were very much against the idea of the raptors winning, and i was the only raptors fan, so it got pretty tiresome. some of it was just straight-up trolling directed right at me. good times.

and yes please if you ever have raptors tickets you need to get rid of i'll take them every single time unless i physically cannot attend the game, or they're like courtside seats that you want $2000 each for
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:43 PM   #266
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and yes please if you ever have raptors tickets you want to get rid of i'll take them every single time unless i physically cannot attend the game, or they're like courtside seats that you want $2000 each for
3rd row behind Raps bench. (free)

I almost never take them anymore b/c my husband doesn't like basketball so I fight for the Leafs tix instead.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:46 PM   #267
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i'm kind of the side that thinks "Bernie has the right intentions, but his weaknesses are considerable and generally unprecedented, although maybe so are his strengths, however i don't believe in the magically materializing youth vote, so another candidate who can continue to win the suburbs won in 2018 so we keep the House and maybe make gains in the Senate would be preferable"

here's why i think that:
I can see the logic in that line of thinking


aside from peoples strong personal feelings about the many distasteful behaviors by Trump, all the positives on other polling about the economy, satisfaction, direction of country being at high levels give re-election on those points reasonable

in 2016 after the election I thought the economy might keep going up under Trump, but a good chance he might break it like Bush-Cheney did,
If one wants to argue that Warren and the Dems kept him in check? perhaps
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:47 PM   #268
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3rd row behind Raps bench. (free)


i will make sure my PM box always has room for at least one new message.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:49 PM   #269
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Amy is going to go nuclear tonight. She saw what it did for Warren so she's gonna give it a go. Let's see how good her aim is with a stapler.
I thought she would at the last debate. But she really kind of faded into the background. Especially as Warren mowed everyone down with verbal AK-47,

What will be interesting to me is if Biden goes more on the attack on Bernie. He and Bloomberg need a good performance more than anyone since they really are the only ones with any prospects of moving on after SC.

Also, will Warren finally hit Bernie? In Trump's words, What do you have to lose???
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:50 PM   #270
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Dave, this would be a good time to admit, these Bernie Bros really are a disappointment and Sanders needs to reign them in.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:56 PM   #271
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1. Bernie somehow gets destroyed tonight and everyone says this was the point that Sanders 2020 ended and (Biden, Warren or Bloomberg) gets the nomination


2. the long knives come out, Bernie get hacks up a lot, but survives and manages to get the nomination


which is the better outcome for the party? and better for the chances of defeating Trump?
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:57 PM   #272
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As an aside on the Bernie Bros, it’s just just in here. Some of us encounter them in other forms of social media and count them among our friends and family. There’s a tendency to personalize things in here because we all sort of “know” each other since it’s now a small group, but stuff from the outside always informs what’s posted in here.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:59 PM   #273
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people keep saying "sanders needs to reign them in" as if there's something simple he can do or say to just make it all stop.

i've asked this question several times now and nobody's given a specific answer: what specific actions or words do you think bernie sanders could take or say today, that would cause sociopaths on twitter to all start playing nice?
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:02 PM   #274
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Not blaming Russia would be a good start.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:12 PM   #275
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some of you know I stayed away for awhile,
I looked back at some of my postings and found some, (many) that were petty and found this forum, like all things on the internet was trending from a discussion from people with different backgrounds, life experiences, that informed their opinions, degrade too many times to just sniping and personal attacks.

whatever my participation is this time around, I will try not to write things that drag respectful discussion and disagreements down a level.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:13 PM   #276
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1. Bernie somehow gets destroyed tonight and everyone says this was the point that Sanders 2020 ended and (Biden, Warren or Bloomberg) gets the nomination


2. the long knives come out, Bernie get hacks up a lot, but survives and manages to get the nomination


which is the better outcome for the party? and better for the chances of defeating Trump?
This is a good question.

I think that Bernie got very lucky in the last debate because Bloomberg showed up and was the #1 target. And then got so viciously destroyed by Warren that it was the talk of the night. And Mayor Pete and Amy Klobuchar decided to yell at each other instead of concentrating on the front runner. The dynamics will be totally different today.

The problem is that aside from Warren, who is clearly prepared to perform ritual sacrifices and even pull a Chris Christie on stage, none of the others have shown themselves capable of sharp brutality. Mayor Pete and Amy Klobuchar irrelevantly fight with each other. Joe Biden has to largely stay quiet in order not to say anything stupid, Bloomberg I think is willing to attack but was zombified last time and so who's left to really deliver the jabs Bernie's way?
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:13 PM   #277
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people keep saying "sanders needs to reign them in"

I didn't say that

I said "you need to say" he should should admit it


(think 3rd row Raptor tickets)
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:17 PM   #278
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This is a good question.

I think that Bernie got very lucky in the last debate because Bloomberg showed up and was the #1 target. And then got so viciously destroyed by Warren that it was the talk of the night. And Mayor Pete and Amy Klobuchar decided to yell at each other instead of concentrating on the front runner. The dynamics will be totally different today.

The problem is that aside from Warren, who is clearly prepared to perform ritual sacrifices and even pull a Chris Christie on stage, none of the others have shown themselves capable of sharp brutality. Mayor Pete and Amy Klobuchar irrelevantly fight with each other. Joe Biden has to largely stay quiet in order not to say anything stupid, Bloomberg I think is willing to attack but was zombified last time and so who's left to really deliver the jabs Bernie's way?

OK, so what is the likely outcome of all of that?
Who does that setup to be for the likely nominee?:


edit to say

I reread your post
my reading comprehension skills aren't the best, often I have to reread,

you say this sets up Bernie to keep advancing.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:34 PM   #279
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you say this sets up Bernie to keep advancing.


That would be my guess going in based on what we’ve seen so far. Is it possible that Bloomberg will turn into a charismatic guy overnight? Or that Elizabeth Warren will go 2/2 and zombify Bernie? I guess anything is possible, but unlikely.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:46 PM   #280
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True, anything is possible,

I actually believe the impeachment helped Trump, without it many would still be more riled up,
now he has been found not guilty

keep in mind I am not talking about the passionate on either side, but the voters in the 5 or 6 swing states that will decide this election

and say what one wants about Bernie's Castro remarks, FL one of the biggest swing states, he needs to adjust his talking points.
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